Shaq vs Hakeem 1995 finals (H2H Statistical breakdown)

Gregoire · Post #41 » by **Gregoire** » Sat Apr 6, 2013 4:21 am

I wrote about more talented orlando team, because IMO Hakeem outplayed Shaq in these finals, but colts stats show, that gap wasnt huge like somepeople though.

RayBan-Sematra · Post #42 » by **RayBan-Sematra** » Sat Apr 6, 2013 6:52 am

colts18 wrote:But with like 7 minutes left, the Magic were within 9 points so its hard to say its garbage time when the magic had a legit chance to win it (the Rockets came from 20 down in game 1 too).

I agree with this line of thinking.
I wouldn't call it it padding when Shaq brought the Magic back and made it a winnable game again.

In the end Shaq didn't have much of a chance due to the way his teammates performed.
Hakeem's supporting cast outplayed O'neal's by an enormous margin.

I gotta say though that 3rd year Shaq arguably playing Peak Hakeem to a wash is insanely impressive especially when guys like Peak Ewing and Robinson got demolished by him.

A young motivated Shaq was a thing to behold.

Rust In Peace · Post #43 » by **Rust In Peace** » Sat Apr 6, 2013 7:57 am

Looks like Shaq outplayed Hakeem and was pretty much unstoppable in that Finals series. It is interesting that the internet and popular media have created this myth that Hakeem destroyed Shaq when it was actually Hakeem's teammates that were destroying Shaq's teammates. Guess it's true what they say about history being written by the victors.

lorak · Post #44 » by **lorak** » Sun Apr 7, 2013 6:13 pm

Great job colts.
Are you planning to do any other series? For example 1995 Hakeem vs DRob

I think it would be also very interesting and would open many people eyes...

colts18 · Post #45 » by **colts18** » Sun Apr 7, 2013 6:30 pm

DavidStern wrote:Great job colts.
Are you planning to do any other series? For example 1995 Hakeem vs DRob I think it would be also very interesting and would open many people eyes...

I think you put up a video of game 1 of that series with all the possessions they guarded each other.

Right now im doing Lebron vs Durant though it will be a simpler breakdown ala the one I did with Shaq vs Duncan/Robinson.

therealbig3 · Post #46 » by **therealbig3** » Sun Apr 7, 2013 6:47 pm

Honestly, I think the only real argument that peak Hakeem had over peak Shaq got destroyed. This series has constantly been used to "prove" that peak Hakeem was better than peak Shaq, because he was just too skilled, and head to head, Shaq would get outplayed (ignoring the fact that Shaq in 95 wasn't close to his peak). Now we can see that even 3rd year Shaq was too much for peak Hakeem to handle...peak Shaq was just on a different level than peak Hakeem.

Teen Girl Squad · Post #47 » by **Teen Girl Squad** » Sun Apr 7, 2013 6:53 pm

Fantastic. I've been arguing this for years (no where near as in depth as you have) as Hakeem has become overrated over the past few years (hes still HoF one of the best bigs ever but his myth was growing more and more each year). Nice to see that I wasn't crazy at all.

ronnymac2 · Post #48 » by **ronnymac2** » Sun Apr 7, 2013 7:12 pm

Great work Colts.

lorak · Post #49 » by **lorak** » Sun Apr 7, 2013 7:27 pm

therealbig3 wrote:Honestly, I think the only real argument that peak Hakeem had over peak Shaq got destroyed. This series has constantly been used to "prove" that peak Hakeem was better than peak Shaq, because he was just too skilled, and head to head, Shaq would get outplayed (ignoring the fact that Shaq in 95 wasn't close to his peak). Now we can see that even 3rd year Shaq was too much for peak Hakeem to handle...peak Shaq was just on a different level than peak Hakeem.

"He's more skilled" seems to be one of the most overrated arguments. Hakeem's and Kobe's fans especially often use it.

The Infamous1 · Post #50 » by **The Infamous1** » Sun Apr 7, 2013 7:34 pm

bastillon wrote:those results are vastly different if you count out 2nd half of G2. I actually calculated it back in the day and Shaq's per 36 scoring for the entire series without that half was like 20 ppg @ 54% TS or something like that. 20 pts can change everything on a 4-game sample.

Halftime game 2
Hakeem 22 pts/8 Boards
Shaq 10 pts/6 boards
Rockets up 20

Final rockets by 11
Shaq 33 / 12 / 7 (23 in 2nd half)
Hakeem 34 / 11 / 2 (12 in 2nd half)

The final Boxscore was a classic case of stats not showing what actually happened

The Infamous1 · Post #51 » by **The Infamous1** » Sun Apr 7, 2013 7:39 pm

therealbig3 wrote:Honestly, I think the only real argument that peak Hakeem had over peak Shaq got destroyed. This series has constantly been used to "prove" that peak Hakeem was better than peak Shaq, because he was just too skilled, and head to head, Shaq would get outplayed (ignoring the fact that Shaq in 95 wasn't close to his peak). Now we can see that even 3rd year Shaq was too much for peak Hakeem to handle...peak Shaq was just on a different level than peak Hakeem.

95 shaq IS prime shaq. The Competetion at center during 00-02 was just garbage.

The only thing shaq did better during that era was pass

Mutnt · Post #52 » by **Mutnt** » Sun Apr 7, 2013 8:38 pm

The Infamous1 wrote:95 shaq IS prime shaq. The Competetion at center during 00-02 was just garbage.

The only thing shaq did better during that era was pass

I hope you aren't serious, are you?

bastillon · Post #53 » by **bastillon** » Sun Apr 7, 2013 9:15 pm

The Infamous1 wrote:
bastillon wrote:those results are vastly different if you count out 2nd half of G2. I actually calculated it back in the day and Shaq's per 36 scoring for the entire series without that half was like 20 ppg @ 54% TS or something like that. 20 pts can change everything on a 4-game sample.

Halftime game 2
Hakeem 22 pts/8 Boards
Shaq 10 pts/6 boards
Rockets up 20

Final rockets by 11
Shaq 33 / 12 / 7 (23 in 2nd half)
Hakeem 34 / 11 / 2 (12 in 2nd half)

The final Boxscore was a classic case of stats not showing what actually happened

exactly. it's just mind boggling how people completely ignore the game 2 statpadding. we should count out this blowout half and then Shaq looks actually poor. it was the only stretch that Shaq truly dominated... when the game was out of reach anyway.

colts18 · Post #54 » by **colts18** » Sun Apr 7, 2013 9:40 pm

therealbig3 wrote:Honestly, I think the only real argument that peak Hakeem had over peak Shaq got destroyed. This series has constantly been used to "prove" that peak Hakeem was better than peak Shaq, because he was just too skilled, and head to head, Shaq would get outplayed (ignoring the fact that Shaq in 95 wasn't close to his peak). Now we can see that even 3rd year Shaq was too much for peak Hakeem to handle...peak Shaq was just on a different level than peak Hakeem.

I should mention this thread wasn't necessarily implying that Shaq outplayed Hakeem in the series. Shaq did have 21 Turnovers to Hakeem's 11 and Hakeem had better transition D and Help D, but the post does imply that Shaq did outplay Hakeem in 1 on 1 situations by a decent margin. 1 on 1, Shaq was the greatest player in history.

RayBan-Sematra · Post #55 » by **RayBan-Sematra** » Mon Apr 8, 2013 1:31 am

bastillon wrote:exactly. it's just mind boggling how people completely ignore the game 2 statpadding.

Can you please drop this nonsense already?
Colts18 already debunked it (his post below).

I think Bastillion's implication was that Shaq stat padded during garbage time because the game was like 20 points in Houston's favor in the 2nd half. But with like 7 minutes left, the Magic were within 9 points so its hard to say its garbage time when the magic had a legit chance to win it (the Rockets came from 20 down in game 1 too).

mysticbb · Post #56 » by **mysticbb** » Mon Apr 8, 2013 6:56 am

bastillon wrote:exactly. it's just mind boggling how people completely ignore the game 2 statpadding. we should count out this blowout half and then Shaq looks actually poor. it was the only stretch that Shaq truly dominated... when the game was out of reach anyway.

Trying to bring back a team from a deficit is NOT stats padding. There is little to no "garbage time" during finals games, because the opposition is not using their end-of-bench players. It is nonsense to claim such things. O'Neal dominated Olajuwon in that situation, a situation where the Magic NEEDED his contribution.

Also, in other game snippets Olajuwon couldn't keep O'Neal in check in 1on1 situations. The Rockets used hard doubles on O'Neal more often than the Magic on Olajuwon, and while the Rockets' support converted the open perimeter attempts, the Magic support did not.

JB uploaded the games, everyone should watch the games and should pay attention to those details. And it should be rather easy to see that the Magic didn't lose the series, because O'Neal was dominated by Olajuwon.

Regulio · Post #57 » by **Regulio** » Mon Apr 8, 2013 8:13 am

Confirms my opinion when I've checked that series to see where that "domination" came from.
Great job!

Gregoire · Post #58 » by **Gregoire** » Mon Apr 8, 2013 11:44 am

Imo even one-on-one stats didnt show the Shaq or Hakeem win, in one-on-one matchup it was basically a tie. But in other components and overall Hakeem was better player imo (in these series and these period, because peak Shaq> peak Hakeem in my opinion). Only peak MJ and peak Wilt could match peak Shaqs 1-on-1 domination, but basketball its 5-on-5 game.

colts18 · Post #59 » by **colts18** » Mon Apr 8, 2013 8:58 pm

Here are some more stats from that series.

Hakeem: Stats when Shaq was off the court:
20 touches (16 doubles)
3-5 FG
4 assists (all 3's)
Fouled by Grant twice

Shaq: stats when Hakeem was off the court:
13 touches (9 doubles)
0 FGA
Drew 2 fouls from Jones
2 TOV (1 travel, 1 bad pass)

% of FGA where he was doubled:
Shaq: 31 doubles out of 73 FGA (42.5%)
Hakeem: 32 doubles out of 115 FGA (27.8%)

By comparison, in the 01-03 playoffs, Duncan doubled Shaq on 35.1% of his FGA and Robinson on 33.8% of his attempts.

Stats when 0 double teams and being guarded by each other:
Shaq: 19-30 (63.3%), 11 Hakeem fouls, 2 assists, took FGA in 56.7% of touches 1 on 1, 3 forced Hakeem TOV
Hakeem: 21-49 (42.9%), 5 Shaq fouls, 3 assists, Took FGA in 70% of touches 1 on 1, 0 Shaq forced TOV

FuShengTHEGreat · Post #60 » by **FuShengTHEGreat** » Tue Apr 9, 2013 4:31 am

therealbig3 wrote:Honestly, I think the only real argument that peak Hakeem had over peak Shaq got destroyed. This series has constantly been used to "prove" that peak Hakeem was better than peak Shaq, because he was just too skilled, and head to head, Shaq would get outplayed (ignoring the fact that Shaq in 95 wasn't close to his peak). Now we can see that even 3rd year Shaq was too much for peak Hakeem to handle...peak Shaq was just on a different level than peak Hakeem.

Yeah he sure was on a different level and overall lot of so-called peak Shaq's performances showed they were lower.

Getting carried by Kobe Bryant in all facets with his season on the line in Game 7 vs. Portland and thereby avoiding arguably the worst collapse in NBA playoff history. Unable to even grab more rebounds or block more shots than a gangly 6'6" SG in arguably the biggest game of his career to date? Who ever carried a peak Hakeem's bags with his season on the line?

Flat out getting owned by epic proportions by Tim Duncan in the '02 WCSF nearly every facet save for shooting a meagre 2%fg better than him. Mind you Shaq's FG% in that series was only %44 and 21ppg, but yet people on RealGM lambast Hakeem for 48% FG for 33ppg and being an inefficient chucker that jacked up 29 shots per game. :Go figure. lol: Peak Hakeem wouldnt have even gotten out the first round from 92-95, much less won 2 titles putting up 21ppg and 44% fg in a series.

Peak Shaq dominated aging one dimensional big men h2h., and his biggest rival in the NBA in Duncan held his own or as the WCSF showed clearly outperformed him. The reciprocal of peak vs. 3rd year is I'd like to see Shaq at 32 (a guy who was fading that couldn't even outrebound Ben Wallace or guard anything 2-3 feet away from him) vs. Akeem at 23 (who ousted Showtime and battled the 50-1 HCA Celts to a hardfought 6 game loss).