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This is the Kareem Abdul-Jabbar thread for the Wins Added by Season Survey Project. viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1241811 Please read the project guidelines before posting in the thread.

For those who have already read the guidelines, just copy and paste the years below and fill in your answers.

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
1970
1971
1972
1973
1974
1975
1976
1977
1978
1979
1980
1981
1982
1983
1984
1985
1986
1987
1988
1989

1970- +5
1971- +7.5
1972- +8
1973- +7.5
1974- +7.5
1975- +6
1976- +6
1977- +8
1978- +6
1979- +6
1980- +7
1981- +6
1982- +5.5
1983- +5.5
1984- +5
1985- 4.5
1986- +3
1987- +1
1988- 0
1989- -1

Kareem's hard, isn't he? One of the reasons why I skipped him. Guy played 20 damn years, and he was a gatekeeper of sorts, starting the year Bill Russell retired, and retiring the year before David Robinson debuted. I'll post in/out and team trends shortly...

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
1970 - +14.0 WS (55.0)
1971 - +21.5 WS (61.5)
1972 - +22.0 WS (63.0)
1973 - +20.0 WS (61.0)
1974 - +20.0 WS (61.0)
1975 - +14.0 WS (55.0)
1976 - +15.0 WS (56.0)
1977 - +19.0 WS (60.0)
1978 - +14.0 WS (55.0)
1979 - +13.0 WS (55.0)
1980 - +14.0 WS (55.0)
1981 - +12.0 WS (53.0)
1982 - +7.5 WS (48.5)
1983 - +6.5 WS (47.5)
1984 - +5.5 WS (46.5)
1985 - +7.0 WS (48.0)
1986 - +6.0 WS (47.0)
1987 - +3.0 WS (44.0)
1988 - +2.0 WS (43.0)
1989 - +1.0 WS (42.0)

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
1970: 6.0
1971: 7.0
1972: 7.0
1973: 6.5
1974: 8.0
1975: 5.5
1976: 7.0
1977: 8.5
1978: 6.5
1979: 7.0
1980: 7.5
1981: 6.5
1982: 5.0
1983: 5.5
1984: 4.5
1985: 5.0
1986: 3.5
1987: 2.0
1988: 1.0
1989: 0

Very rough. After 1980 it gets very hard. I'm also confused about the 70-72 seasons.

What makes Kareem so difficult for me is rating his defensive impact. I've been doing my SRS impact lists in terms of offensive/defensive splits (if others aren't doing it this way, they should IMO). Kareem looks like a +5.5 to +6 offensive player at his peak to me, but defensively I've got him anywhere from 1.5 to 3.0. Seemed to be at his best defensively during his first 5 years, then started to fall off after that. I don't think his offensive peak and defensive peak coincided. Wondering what others think.

thebottomline wrote:What makes Kareem so difficult for me is rating his defensive impact. I've been doing my SRS impact lists in terms of offensive/defensive splits (if others aren't doing it this way, they should IMO). Kareem looks like a +5.5 to +6 offensive player at his peak to me, but defensively I've got him anywhere from 1.5 to 3.0. Seemed to be at his best defensively during his first 5 years, then started to fall off after that. I don't think his offensive peak and defensive peak coincided. Wondering what others think.

Yeah that's how I've done them all as well. I have his offensive/defensive peak splits around there as well (maybe a tad bit lower for the top end).

1970 +5.5
1971 +6.0
1972 +6.0
1973 +6.0
1974 +6.5
1975 +6.0
1976 +6.5
1977 +7.0
1978 +6.5
1979 +6.5
1980 +7.0
1981 +6.0
1982 +5.0
1983 +5.0
1984 +4.0
1985 +4.0
1986 +3.5
1987 +2.0
1988 +1.0
1989 +0.5

I also find offense/defense splits to be the easiest way to formulate an answer. That also really forces me to think about lineup pairings (eg if he goes to a defensive team, they may be insane defensively, but then does the offense really stink? And vice versa -- how much can this guy help an offensive team on defense?)

ElGee wrote:I also find offense/defense splits to be the easiest way to formulate an answer. That also really forces me to think about lineup pairings (eg if he goes to a defensive team, they may be insane defensively, but then does the offense really stink? And vice versa -- how much can this guy help an offensive team on defense?)

I actually think overall value is easier since you mitigate the lineup extremes effect. Its easier for me to say I would rather have Kareem 1977 than MJ 1998 than it is to say I think Kareem 1977 Defense is about .5 better than MJ 1998.

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar related In/Out (WOWY)

Kareem Team Trends

Milwaukee Bucks

1969 [SRS] -5.1 [ORtg] -2.3 [DRtg] 2.2
----------------------------------------------
1970 [SRS] 4.3 [ORtg] 2.9 [DRtg] -1.1
1971 [SRS] 11.9 [ORtg] 7.3 [DRtg] -3.5
1972 [SRS] 10.7 [ORtg] 5.2 [DRtg] -4.8
1973 [SRS] 7.8 [ORtg] 2.2 [DRtg] -5.4
1974 [SRS] 7.6 [ORtg] 3.5 [DRtg] -4.1
1975 [SRS] 0.3 [ORtg] 0.3 [DRtg] 0.2
----------------------------------------------
1976 [SRS] -1.6 [ORtg] -1.0 [DRtg] 0.4

Los Angeles Lakers

1975 [SRS] -3.9 [ORtg] -1.6 [DRtg] 2.3
------------------------------------------------------
1976 [SRS] 0.2 [ORtg] 0.6 [DRtg] 0.5
1977 [SRS] 2.7 [ORtg] 1.9 [DRtg] -0.7
1978 [SRS] 2.6 [ORtg] 2.4 [DRtg] -0.1
1979 [SRS] 3.0 [ORtg] 2.3 [DRtg] -0.7
1980 [SRS] 5.4 [ORtg] 4.2 [DRtg] -1.4
1981 [SRS] 3.3 [ORtg] 2.3 [DRtg] -1.4
1982 [SRS] 4.4 [ORtg] 3.3 [DRtg] -1.4
1983 [SRS] 5.1 [ORtg] 5.8 [DRtg] 0.5
1984 [SRS] 3.3 [ORtg] 3.1 [DRtg] -0.5
1985 [SRS] 6.5 [ORtg] 6.2 [DRtg] -0.9
1986 [SRS] 6.8 [ORtg] 6.1 [DRtg] -1.4
1987 [SRS] 8.3 [ORtg] 7.3 [DRtg] -1.8
1988 [SRS] 4.8 [ORtg] 5.0 [DRtg] -0.7
1989 [SRS] 6.4 [ORtg] 6.0 [DRtg] -1.1
----------------------------------------------
1990 [SRS] 6.7 [ORtg] 5.9 [DRtg] -1.1

1970: 6.5
1971: 7.0
1972: 7.0
1973: 7.0
1974: 8.0
1975: 5.0
1976: 7.5
1977: 9.0
1978: 6.5
1979: 8.0
1980: 8.5
1981: 6.5
1982: 6.0
1983: 5.0
1984: 4.5
1985: 5.5
1986: 3.5
1987: 2.5
1988: 1.5
1989: 0

70- +5.5
71- +7.0
72- +7.5
73- +7.5
74- +7.5
75- +6.5
76- +7.5
77- +8.0
78- +7.5
79- +7.5
80- +7.5
81- +7.0
82- +5.5
83- +5.0
84- +4.5
85- +4.5
86- +4.0
87- +3.0
88- +1.5
89- +1.0

The defense is tough for Kareem. I'm taking a break from MJ/Russ and moving on to Cap, but here are his teams' relative DRtgs compared to the league average (minutes played in parentheses):

MIL
69 +2.2% (0)
70 -1.1% (3534)
71 -3.5% (3288)
72 -4.9% (3583)
73 -5.5% (3254)
74 -4.2% (3548)
75 +0.2% (2747)
76 +0.4% (0)

LAL
75 +2.3% (0)
76 +0.5% (3379)
77 -0.7% (3016)
78 -0.1% (2265)
79 -0.6% (3157)
80 -1.3% (3143)
81 -1.6% (2976)
82 -1.3% (2677)
83 +0.5% (2554)
84 -0.3% (2622)
85 -0.8% (2630)
86 -1.3% (2629)
87 -1.7% (2441)
88 -0.7% (2308)
89 -1.0% (1695)
90 -1.0% (0)

The first set of bolded years seem to be impressive, as do 80-82 (after which I don't feel comfortable assigning him too much credit/blame). 75-79 seem out of place here, though we can discount 75 due to injury. 76-79 don't seem what you'd expect based on his earlier career, but based on LAL in 75, maybe the rest of the team was awful defensively? I'll have to do more research, but the numbers seem odd. At the moment, I'm going with:

75 - injury
76 - getting used to the team
77,78,79 - had to anchor the offense, so didn't have enough energy to dedicate himself as much to defense; these numbers aren't terrible, but you'd expect more based on 71-74...maybe we have to take the split leagues/expansion into account, and those seasons overstate his defensive impact?

Anyhow, what do you guys think?

In SRS:

1970 +5.5
1971 +7.5
1972 +7.0
1973 +7.0
1974 +7.5
1975 +6.5
1976 +7.5
1977 +9.0
1978 +7.5
1979 +6.0
1980 +7.5
1981 +5.0
1982 +4.0
1983 +3.0
1984 +2.5
1985 +4.0
1986 +3.0
1987 +1.5
1988 +0.5
1989 -0.5

EDIT: Updated 11/13/13

BTW in case anybody's interested, I've been typing up quotes from Kareem's early 80s autobiography (regarding is his time in the NBA) when I've had a chance. Here's the link to the post on ISH:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showth ... p?t=324389

I might type up another quote or two when I get home, but there's some good stuff already up. Might be useful for people working on the ElGee's project.

Just finished posting all of the NBA-relevant quotes from his book at the above link. Some good stuff on Oscar, Magic, the Benson incident, etc.