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Since those 5 are generally considered the best centers of the 90's, I wanted to compare they rate when it comes when Man defense. I started off from 93, the year that Zo and Shaq were drafted and looked until 2000.


From 93-96:
Here are how starting centers who played at least 30 MP in a game vs. each of these centers fared.

Shaq: 18 PPG, .495 TS%, 10 reb, 1.03 AST-TOV

Ewing: 17.6 PPG, .541 TS%, 10.2 reb, 0.75 AST-TOV

Zo: 19.1 PPG, .564 TS%, 10.9 reb, 1.16 AST-TOV

Robinson: 18.1 PPG, .538 TS%, 10.2 reb, 0.93 AST-TOV

Hakeem: 15 PPG, .541 TS%, 11 reb, 0.89 AST-TOV

league average in this situation: 18.4 PPG, .564 TS% 10.5 reb, 0.87 AST-TOV

*note: I normalized all of their opponent FT% to the league average (69.8 FT%) so that all of them are on an even playing field when it comes to something they can't control (FT%).

Based on that, Zo is the worst in these situations. Hakeem is the best in suppressing FGA which is why his PPG is low. But Shaq is by the best at suppressing efficiency. His men were -6.9 TS% from the center league average. Interestingly enough Shaq allowed 15.8 FGA compared to Hakeem's 11.9. I'm not sure what hakeem is doing, but he is doing a good job forcing the action away.



Here is how they did vs. each other plus Brad Daughtery (the only other 20 PPG center in the league at the time):

Shaq: 25.1 PPG, .501 TS%, 11.7 reb, 1.10 AST-TOV (37.9% of his games were vs. them)

Ewing: 27.9 PPG, .579 TS%, 12.3 reb, 0.83 AST-TOV (32.4% of games)

Zo: 30.7 PPG, .593 TS%, 12.3 reb, 1.31 AST-TOV (31.1% of games)

Robinson: 24.8 PPG, .519 TS%, 11.1 reb, 0.93 AST-TOV (32.5% of games)

Hakeem: 20.5 PPG, .519 TS%, 12.4 reb, 0.94 AST-TOV (29.7% of games)


average: 25.7 PPG, .574 TS%, 11.7 Reb, 0.93 AST-TOV

The same story here. Zo gets murdered by the top guys. Hakeem suppresses their volume at an unbelievable rate. Shaq once again limits their efficiency. This time he limits it even more than he does to normal guys (-7.3 TS%). Robinson looks good too.


97-00:

Shaq: 14.6 PPG, .473 TS%, 9.8 reb, 0.99 AST-TOV

Zo: 13.3 PPG, .504 TS%, 9.5 reb, 0.77 AST-TOV

Robinson; 14.9 PPG, .511 TS%, 8.7 reb, 0.69 AST-TOV (from 98-00 for Robinson)

League average: 16.1 PPG, .549 TS%, 10.1 reb, 0.80 AST-TOV

This time Zo improved his defense a lot. Robinson looks really good in all of the categories including forcing a lot more turnovers than assists. Shaq once again does a good job suppressing efficiency, this time by -7.6 TS%

Here is what they did vs. Shaq/Zo/Robinson/Hakeem/Ewing:

Shaq: 18.4 PPG, .449 TS%, 10.3 reb, 0.93 AST-TOV (26.7% of games)

Zo: 22.5 PPG, .508 TS%, 11.5 reb, 0.71 AST-TOV (20.5% of games)

Robinson: 23.5 PPG, .549 TS%, 10.2 reb, 0.44 AST-TOV (20.2% of games)

average: 23.8 PPG, .564 TS%, 11.5 reb, 0.75 AST-TOV


This time Zo shines again. But Shaq's numbers vs. these guys is outrageous. He is suppressing their PPG by -5.4 PPG, -1.2 reb, and taking away -11.5 TS%. To put that TS% number into perspective, Shaq is saving 4.7 PPG from the average solely on that TS%. But once again Shaq's ast-TOV allowed numbers are mediocre. While Robinson's AST-TOV ratio numbers are outrageous.

If you were curious, here is how Shaq compares vs. the league average from 01-04 a period where he was in his late prime:

Shaq: 11.4 PPG, .510 TS%, 9.3 reb, 1.27 AST-TOV
avg: 14.3 PPG, .552 TS%, 9.8 reb, 0.92 AST-TOV
Diff: -2.9 PPG, -4.2 TS%, -0.5 reb, +0.35 AST-TOV

Once again its the same story. Shaq takes away the efficiency and gobbles away rebounds, but he has negative effect on the passing numbers.



Conclusions:
-Hakeem might be the GOAT at limiting opponent's volume
-Shaq is arguably the greatest post defender in history. No one limits opponent efficiency like him
-Ewing and Robinson were awesome at preventing assists and forcing turnovers
-Mourning was a mediocre defender early in his career but awesome from 97-00
-Hakeem was awesome vs. other great big men. So was Shaq
-Young Mourning regularly got abused by the top centers.
-Looking at the average numbers, you can see how much the centers declined. They went from 18-11, 56 TS% in 93-96 all the way to 14-10, 55 TS% with worse ast-tov ratio.

I probably need to investigate more on why Hakeem was so good at taking away a player's volume. When it came to efficiency, he wasn't special, but for some reason he seems to force big men into not taking shots.

This is what Shaq did vs Hakeem from 93-99:

Shaq's per 36 numbers:
Expected: 23.7 PPG, 57.8 FG%
Actual: 20.1 PPG, 57.4 FG%
-3.6 PPG, -0.2 FG%

Here are 32 head to head Hakeem vs Robinson games from 90-96:
Robinson vs. Hakeem, 32 games:
Robinson: 21.8 PPG, 47.8 FG%, .545 TS%, 11.9 Reb, 3.3 AST, 5.72 STL/BLK
Olajuwon: 24.4 PPG, 44.9 FG%, .498 TS%, 12.1 Reb, 3.3 AST, 5.50 STL/BLK


Performance away from 90-96 average:
Robinson: -3.8 PPG, -4.8 FG%, -4.7 TS%, +0.1 Reb, +0.2 AST
Olajuwon: -0.8 PPG, -6.6 FG%, -6.1 TS%, -0.2 Reb, +0.2 AST

Hakeem was once again able to limit Robinson's by almost 4 PPG. Robinson was able to limit Hakeem by -6.1 TS%, Ewing -9.4 TS%, so he is impressive in this too.

Comparing Hakeem vs Robinson's defense on 30 MP centers from 90-96

Robinson:
16.6 PPG
.529 TS%
9.9 Reb
0.85 AST/TOV ratio

Hakeem:
15.0 PPG
.546 TS%
10.5 Reb
0.77 AST/TOV ratio

Allowed 20+ points:
Hakeem: 21.7%
DRob: 32.4%

Allowed 10 or less points:
Hakeem: 26.7%
DRob: 23.3%

Hakeem allowed more efficiency but for some reason he showed a skill at stopping FGA. I want to know if that came from Hakeem's skill level or did the Rockets use a scheme to stop centers from beating them.

These stats don't tell me a whole lot even though I agree with some of your conclusions. You have to watch the games and if those aren't available do research to see the coaching strategies in regards to whether they chose to double team or play straight up man defense, if there was any switching of the match ups and even then you can't tell how those points, turnovers, fouls etc were accumulated by simply looking at the box score. For instance, how much did the defenders had to help out and leave their man which leaves room for dump-offs and putbacks, were there plays where they ended up being cross-matched in transition, were fouls drawn by their own man or not, were the turnovers forced by their man or due to bad passes out of double teams or the double teamer stripping them down low, how often did they score via PnRs and what strategies were used on said play etc.

For example, Houston always double teamed bigs because of how much of the offense went through Hakeem so they wouldn't want him to get in foul trouble. Hakeem was also a relatively small guy; he was listed 7' but he was about 6'10" and weighed about 255 lbs and his weight would actually fluctuate through the year due to Ramadan. For instance, in March 1995, he was down to about 245 lbs and during the finals vs Orlando, Bill Walton mentioned Hakeem had actually lost 20 lbs over the past year bringing him down to about 235 lbs although that seemed unlikely. This disparity in size relative to other bigs could cause him to have a hard time with bigger centers since they could seal him deep and use that size/body advantage against him. Shaq is an obvious example although he presented that issue for just about everyone.

Don Chaney does say man defense was Hakeem's weakness below but I disagree although in a way, it's hard to argue with him considering he coached him for multiple years and saw him much more than I did. I don't think I've seen more than 30 games from the period Chaney coached him (1989-1992) and most of them were against teams without major scoring threats at the C position.

In the first 50 games of the Rockets' season, the primary opposing center has averaged 13.1 points per game. They have rebounded 9.3 missed shots per game.

While that isn't far from the league average among centers, for Olajuwon, the expectations are much higher.

Although coach Don Chaney doesn't feel Olajuwon has changed much as a defender, he concedes the 7-footer has his strengths and weaknesses.

"In man-to-man defense over the years, most guys Hakeem has played against have scored," Chaney said. "This year is no different.

"The thing with Hakeem is that his team defense is so good. He'll lean in to block shots. And a lot of times his guy will get the rebound and score.

"He's a great team defender. But as far as straight-up one-on-one, that's not his forte."

- Houston Chron.

I do think Chaney is being a bit overly critical and definitely exaggerating in saying "most guys Hakeem has played against have scored. I would say 80s Hakeem did have a tendency to gamble more often, overplay too much at times and you could get him up on his feet using ball fakes or shot fakes which could result in some easy baskets or Hakeem could possibly get into foul trouble. Although this is far from Hakeem's prime in regards to man defense, Kareem had a lot of success against Hakeem in the 1985 and 1986 regular seasons because Hakeem would overplay and go for steals on entry passes, he also gave up deep position on the box (Hakeem said Kareem had a very strong lower body) and Kareem was able to score big in single coverage. Fitch made an adjustment and had Sampson guard Hakeem in their last 2 regular season meetings in 1986 as well as their playoff series that year with Hakeem providing help from the weak side and they were thus able to slow him down relative to his season numbers.

I also think Chaney's statement could be a bit misleading because he does say that his man could take advantage of him helping out (results in putbacks, dump-offs etc) but I don't see how that means his man scored on him though. Anyway, I would say size was about the only 'weakness' prime Hakeem had on defense which could be an issue against the bigger Cs and I use that term loosely because it would be like saying Jordan's inability to guard Magic in the 1991 finals was a weakness (Magic worked him in the low-post). A lot of times a huge disparity in size is hard to overcome for any defender though there's a few, rare exceptions.

I'll say a lot of these defensive bigs that had to help out so much could get burned for roaming by those jumpshooting bigs that teams used to stretch the floor (someone like Sam Perkins) but I wouldn't consider that a weakness when you're forced to help out on your teammates although on possessions where you're caught ball watching or inattentive or if you're simply unwilling to come out, you could penalize them for that.

Out of these guys, Hakeem was by far (only Robinson is in the ball park) the best in terms of forcing turnovers due to his quick hands which could allow him to flick the ball away or strip them on the dribble often forcing TOs, he'd often overplay on the entry pass and deflect it (usually gambled and recovered in time) and his great footwork and ability to anticipate the offensive player's movements could force charges/traveling violations. He would also give his man different looks in that he'd move side to side making the entry passer think twice about delivering the pass so that was good ball denial on his behalf. I would say overplaying the entry pass and deflecting the ball to his teammates would result in a TO for the entry passer so technically, it's not really a TO on his man but it could count as limiting his touches and if the deflection still ends up in hands of the opponent, that's still a good play since he's denying a shot opportunity by his man. Overplaying the entry pass and deflecting the ball away is a skill that David Robinson possessed as well. And to answer your question on why Hakeem was so good at limiting others volume, it was a combination of the double teaming defense they used against opposing Cs as well as Hakeem's quick hands and his ball denial.

I would say Hakeem's man defense was great in general more so on guys smaller or similar to him in size. He guarded PFs such as Kemp and Malone (though it was rare) fairly well since he had the quick feet and mobility to stick them while they were facing up and looking to put the ball on the floor and Hakeem was the best C out of the ones listed and I've personally seen at contesting jumpshots (Bob Lanier also commented on this) largely due to his phenomenal timing and long arms. This was a big reason why Ewing (essentially a jump shooting C at that point) shot so horribly in the finals and it also bothered Robinson's jumper quite a bit during the 1995 conference finals.

The next issue I have with those stats is switching match ups and that's something that was true in regards to all the players listed. Orlando often used to switch match ups between Grant and Shaq for instance which you can see in a couple of examples below.

The Magic throw a defensive wrinkle at the Spurs, having power forward Horace Grant guard Robinson while O'Neal checks Spur power forward Dennis Rodman. It is a logical move, since Robinson plays like a forward, roaming out on the wing and facing the basket, and Rodman camps near the backboard. Grant's quickness is effective against Robinson, who makes only 7 of 24 shots, but San Antonio still takes a 14-point fourth-quarter lead.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm

Horace Grant's presence also is paying dividends. In the win over Houston, the Magic held the Rockets to eight points in the first quarter, and Grant held Hakeem Olajuwon to 1-for-7 shooting from the field.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1994-1 ... ing-oakley

Shaq was a great low-post defender, no doubt about that, but this is exactly what I mean when I say these head to head numbers can be misleading. Nonetheless, that's not to take away from his man defense as he's generally defended the likes of Duncan, Hakeem, Ewing really well due to his size and strength forcing guys away from the basket, his length and ability to block/contest shots on the move, his wide body that makes it hard to get around him etc. Also, he probably did guard centers more often in 1993 and 1994 and 1997-2000 than he did in 1995 and 1996. They didn't have any quality back up in his first two Orlando years though Tree Rollins, their assistant coach in 1994, would suit up occasionally in case they wanted to save Shaq from foul trouble or give him some rest. I know in the 1994 playoffs, they did not have Shaq guard Smits (Krystkowiak guarded Smits which threw Rik off of his game) because they were worried about Smits drawing him away from the paint so Shaq took on Dale Davis which meant he could stay inside and guard the lane. In the LA years, I need to go back and watch tape more often but IIRC, Shaq did guard Cs for the most part though the elite Cs were on the decline at the time. I do remember Shaq being stuck on Karl Malone at times (1998 WCF comes to mind) but that wasn't a good match up since Karl could face up and shoot and work in the PnR. He also took on Tim Duncan occasionally such as early in game 4 of the 1999 series although he wasn't very successful in this game and the 1999 Christmas Day game between SAS and LAL and held him to 2/14 shooting on the plays he guarded him (Duncan was 8/23 overall). This may have been an experiment by Phil due to Duncan having success vs the Laker PFs in the 1999 series (Horry, Reid, Fox). Well, Fox did play some good defense on Duncan in game 2 of that series (despite giving up some size) but for the majority of the series, especially the last two games, they weren't able to limit him at all and were forced to send some double teams at him as well. Guarding the elite PFs in the west was an issue for the 2000 Lakers which they would solve for the next season when they acquired Horace Grant as part of a 4 team trade. It makes me wonder if we would've seen Shaq on Duncan had Duncan not been injured in 2000 and if the two teams ended up facing each other in the playoffs. Shaq also did guard Duncan fairly well in their playoff match up in 2002. I don't think he guarded him a lot except late in the games (due to foul trouble) but Shaq did do a very good job against Tim in the 4th quarter despite playing with numerous injuries. Duncan did have a bit too much of a load to carry that series though.

Ewing, due to Riley often opting for man defense and the way the Knicks prided themselves on D, was the guy who went one on one more often than anyone else (this also gives a decent reasoning as to why assist #s were low vs the Knicks) but Charles Oakley and even Anthony Mason (despite his height disadvantage) would switch over to the C allowing Ewing to patrol the lane. This is effective for strategic purposes because for most centers, their biggest impact is made through their presence in the lane by altering and contesting shots, bringing an intimidation factor making players reluctant to drive inside, shading/roaming around, defending the PnR etc and it also helps them avoid foul trouble. Another example is the 1997 playoff match up between Ewing and Zo in which it was a rare occurrence to see the two match up together. Riley went with PJ Brown on Ewing (Zo checked Ewing in game 7 due to the suspensions if I'm not mistaken) and JVG went with Oakley and Buck Williams on Zo to save the two guys from getting in to foul trouble and both Ewing and Zo were free to roam around.

This is true for David Robinson as well who'd sometimes switch match ups with guys like Dennis Rodman, JR Reid and Terry Cummings due to issues regarding foul trouble and to help out more often. Hakeem as well with guys like Otis Thorpe and Charles Jones.

Zo was somebody who struggled against bigger centers due to his lack of size as well. He was a relatively small guy (about 6'10" in shoes) and his team and especially help defense was by far his biggest asset on defense as he made quick rotations and had tremendous timing and instincts for shot blocking. I'm not shocked to see these perform well against him due to his limitation in size though I'm also not surprised to see him improve during his Miami years where he became a more mature, experienced player with added muscle mass though his anger could still get the best of him (T'd up a lot, could effect performance on court) and foul trouble was always an issue just because he was so relentless in contesting shots and as a result also got in some embarrassing highlight reels. That's another thing that makes stats a bit questionable like I mentioned earlier, since we don't know how the fouls were drawn unless we watch tape. Is it because Zo gave up deep position and is forced to foul or is it an over the back foul when fighting for rebounding position or a guard creating contact on a drive?

I would be more interested in taking FG% as well in head to head numbers/match ups especially in regards to guys who aren't great FT shooters like Shaq since they paint a more accurate picture. If Shaq shoots 13/20 from the field and goes 3/12 from the foul line, his TS% would skew what really happened and make his efficiency against said defender worse than it actually is. He isn't being guarded at the foul line though I understand TS% is included to show how many fouls were drawn but like I said, we don't know who the fouls were drawn against and the manner in which they were drawn without watching tape.

NugzHeat3 wrote:These stats don't tell me a whole lot even though I agree with some of your conclusions. You have to watch the games

Yeah this is true, however how many of the games are actually available now for people to even watch in the past?

Man D:
1.Hakeem
2.Robinson
3.Ewing
4.Shaq
5.Zo

NugzHeat3 wrote:

Awesome post. That was the kind of insight I was looking for. You really went in depth there.

I would be more interested in taking FG% as well in head to head numbers/match ups especially in regards to guys who aren't great FT shooters like Shaq since they paint a more accurate picture. If Shaq shoots 13/20 from the field and goes 3/12 from the foul line, his TS% would skew what really happened and make his efficiency against said defender worse than it actually is. He isn't being guarded at the foul line though I understand TS% is included to show how many fouls were drawn but like I said, we don't know who the fouls were drawn against and the manner in which they were drawn without watching tape.

Here is the FG% allowed by these centers only against the good centers (+ Daughtery):

Shaq: 45.0 FG%
Hakeem: 46.2 FG%
Robinson: 47.6 FG%
Ewing: 52.2 FG%
Zo: 55.4 FG%

Against all centers:
Shaq: 45.0 FG%
Ewing: 49.0 FG%
Robinson: 49.8 FG%
Hakeem: 49.8 FG%
Zo: 53.0 FG%

From 97-00 against Shaq/Ewing/Hakeem/Zo/DRob:
Shaq: 40.5 FG%
Zo: 46.5 FG% (44.6 FG% against non-Shaq guys)
Rob: 51.8 FG% (44.5 FG% against non-Shaq guys)

Against all centers from 97-00:
Shaq: 42.6 FG%
Zo: 45.3 FG%
Robinson: 47.9%

So overall Shaq shines there. As far as limiting FG%, Shaq might be the best at that all-time. he is also

Honestly I know Shaq's D is maligned but I don't think it's his actual defense that is good. I think Shaq was the ultimate intimidator. It's not that I ever saw Shaq shut people down, it's that no one ever challenged him. Centers didn't go at him and Shaq just got to relax on defense. When players did challenge Shaq he absolutely hammered them going in the lane. He didn't mind laying a few hard fouls and in the long run it kept players from challenging him.

That's why the only time I saw Shaq was challenged when teams put him in the pnr.

For my money I like either Hakeem or Robinson for actual defense. But I like Shaq the best because he scared his opponents from even trying......

NugzHeat3 wrote:
Hakeem, however, was by far (only Robinson is in the ball park), the best out of these guys in terms of forcing turnovers and giving guys different looks defensively because of his ridiculously quick hands, anticipation which allowed him to gamble and recover in case he got beat on the overplay (he could overplay the entry pass, squat and force the guy out of position, strip on the move ect) so his way of playing you differentiated throughout the game.

Hakeem was pretty good at forcing Turnovers

Turnovers allowed per game against elite guys from 93-96:

Hakeem: 3.46 TOV
Ewing: 3.27
Robinson: 3.27
Shaq: 2.98
Zo: 2.51 TOV

Against all centers:

Ewing: 2.63
Hakeem: 2.48
Robinson: 2.37
Shaq: 2.33
Zo: 1.83


From 97-00 against good centers:
Robinson: 2.88 TOV
Shaq: 2.22 TOV
Zo: 2.06 TOV

Against all centers 97-00:
Robinson: 2.08
Zo: 1.96
Shaq: 1.88

Granted part of it is because the average center in my sample has declined in turnovers over the years:
93-96: 2.52 Turnovers per game
97-00: 2.30 TOV
01-04: 1.98 TOV

Great stuff as usual Colts.

Shaq really doesn't get the credit he deserves for the facets of defense he really excelled at like his post/rim defense and his m2m defense.

I definitely think he was one of the best m2m defenders ever at the center position.
His combination of size, length and footspeed really made him a nightmare for opposing C's especially when he was putting in the effort.

I can remember in particular Shaq defending Hakeem on one play in the 95 Finals where Hakeem faced up and made this ridiculously fast spin-move and Shaq was able to back pedal and stay with Hakeem and contest the shot near the rim making it miss.

Just an example but Shaq could play some nasty m2m defense when he wanted even against the quickest centers.

colts18 wrote:

NugzHeat3 wrote:

Awesome post. That was the kind of insight I was looking for. You really went in depth there.

I would be more interested in taking FG% as well in head to head numbers/match ups especially in regards to guys who aren't great FT shooters like Shaq since they paint a more accurate picture. If Shaq shoots 13/20 from the field and goes 3/12 from the foul line, his TS% would skew what really happened and make his efficiency against said defender worse than it actually is. He isn't being guarded at the foul line though I understand TS% is included to show how many fouls were drawn but like I said, we don't know who the fouls were drawn against and the manner in which they were drawn without watching tape.

Here is the FG% allowed by these centers only against the good centers (+ Daughtery):

Shaq: 45.0 FG%
Hakeem: 46.2 FG%
Robinson: 47.6 FG%
Ewing: 52.2 FG%
Zo: 55.4 FG%

Against all centers:
Shaq: 45.0 FG%
Ewing: 49.0 FG%
Robinson: 49.8 FG%
Hakeem: 49.8 FG%
Zo: 53.0 FG%

From 97-00 against Shaq/Ewing/Hakeem/Zo/DRob:
Shaq: 40.5 FG%
Zo: 46.5 FG% (44.6 FG% against non-Shaq guys)
Rob: 51.8 FG% (44.5 FG% against non-Shaq guys)

Against all centers from 97-00:
Shaq: 42.6 FG%
Zo: 45.3 FG%
Robinson: 47.9%

So overall Shaq shines there. As far as limiting FG%, Shaq might be the best at that all-time. he is also

Nice work.

By the way, something I touched on earlier that I'd like to further expand on in regards to Zo. Your analysis showcased how Zo greatly improved during the 1997-2000 stretch. I think that might be due to Riley choosing to roll with PJ Brown to guard Cs who they signed in the 1996 off-season. I mentioned how Riley and JVG did not let the star Cs go at it in the 1997 series because that's the only Heat vs Knicks series that I vividly remember but it seems like that might've been the case during their other encounters as well.

Little 1-on-1 For Zo, Ewing
HEAT NOTEBOOK
May 8, 1999|By IRA WINDERMAN Staff Writer
MIAMI — For all the Heat's Alonzo Mourning and the Knicks' Patrick Ewing have in common -- Georgetown roots, a tendency to square up for short jumpers, ability to alter shots -- the franchise centers will share little common ground in the first round of the playoffs.

New York power forward Kurt Thomas will open as the primary defender on Mourning, just as Charles Oakley did in the teams' previous playoff meetings. Heat power forward P.J. Brown will continue to guard Ewing.



"P.J., I feel, is our best big-man defender and possibly our best post defender," coach Pat Riley said after Friday's final playoff preparations.

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1999-0 ... ewing-heat

Riley saying Brown was the best man defender + best big-man defender gives some credence to the theory that he, instead of Zo, was the one being assigned to guard the elite Cs in the league. I do remember the late 90s Heat using the fronting style of defense quite a bit in the post; they could afford to do that since Zo would quickly rotate once the entry pass was lobbed in and challenge the shot. That's a way you can avoid foul trouble + maximize your biggest asset on defense (team/help D).

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1995-1 ... rick-ewing

^Another nice read on Zo and his struggles with the elite bigs.

Shaq did great in the stats you listed. Zo seems to have done better vs the rest of the league than the elite bigs which definitely makes sense.

I find it a little odd Hakeem/Robinson did worse against all centers than they did vs the elite ones but I do feel that can be attributed to them playing a less conservative, more active style of defense against your typical center that wasn't the focal point of the offense. They did play the best help/team defense out of all the guys listed. These two had to help out a lot defensively and that often leaves your man out of position for open jumpshots, opportunities for dump-offs, putbacks and offensive rebounds in general. One example off the top of my head is Ostertag's game 6 vs the 1997 Rockets. I think he got at least half of those 16 pts because Hakeem had to help out after a defensive breakdown. Against elite centers, you can often be reluctant to come off them since that virtually assures a basket in one way or the other. I remember some of the Spurs vs Lakers match ups with Shaq vs the Twin Towers and in certain plays, whoever was guarding Shaq could be reluctant to challenge on the penetration because that virtually guaranteed a bucket for Shaq via an offensive rebound or a dump-off since he was so good at spacing himself on the baseline, making a timely cut and being the receiver. I think Matt Guokas mentioned this too in the Magic vs Rockets series that Hakeem was not contesting as many shots, didn't help out as much as he normally did and focused more on boxing Shaq out.

I'm a little surprised by how well Ewing did in forcing turnovers in the stats you listed in your next post since I don't remember him being that type of player at all especially compared to Hakeem/Robinson who were more active defensively and liked to gamble more often. Ewing's man defense was solid with his strengths including his motor (effort was never questioned), he had bulk making it hard to get around him, contested jumpers well, basically made his man work for his points and he could draw some charges getting in proper position. His mobility wasn't great though especially heading into the 90s. And of course, not every turnover can be forced by the primary defender since bad passes out of double teams, the help defender slapping the ball away ect are turnovers as well but considering that Knicks liked to double the least out of these guys and were not the top teams in steals, that doesn't make much sense in theory at all. I will try to watch some Knicks games and play special attention to this and see how these turnovers are being forced. New York did switch match ups at times like I mentioned earlier allowing Ewing to patrol the lane so maybe that plays a part. Oakley/Mason could take on the Cs along with some help.

Sorry for the double post but just an example to back up what I was referring to in regards to Ewing and turnovers forced.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 10NYK.html

^In the game above, Shaq had 5 turnovers but the primary defender on him was actually Anthony Mason and he received double team help from Ewing/Smith/Oakley.

Shaq's Magic Up In Smoke Mason, Nellie's Junk 'D' Nullify O'neal And Penny
BY FRANK ISOLA
Friday, February 02, 1996
Just don't tell Anthony Mason. Mason was the sacrificial lamb in Don Nelson's newly implemented big lineup. With Derek Harper responsible for Anfernee Hardaway, Patrick Ewing assigned to Horace Grant and Smith matched up against Dennis Scott, O'Neal became Mason's problem.
Then Ewing, Smith or Charles Oakley could help on the double-team each time O'Neal got the ball in the low post. O'Neal, who averaged 34 points in five previous games against Ewing, finished with 18 points and 11 rebounds.
Except for his four blocked shots, O'Neal was never really a factor. Nor, for that matter, was Hardaway, who appeared in a daze, while Harper, who had 15 points and 12 assists, was holding him to six points on 3-for-15 shooting.
"We just had to approach the game differently because we were overmatched playing them the way we played them the first time," Nelson said after his club won its fourth straight. "Mason guarding O'Neal all night long was quite an effort."

^NY Daily News.

NugzHeat3 wrote:.

Another great post. The point about PJ Brown is interesting. In 2000, the game Shaq played against PJ Brown, Shaq had 17 points on 5-17 shooting. In the game PJ missed, Shaq scored 28 points on 12-22 shooting. That was Shaq's 2nd worst FG% that year with the only one worse coming against Mutombo (Shaq demolished him the next year).

Since you don't remember the series after 1997, here is a highlight video of the 2000 Heat-Knicks series. It looks to me like for the most part, Ewing and Zo guarded each other when they were on the court and occasionally PJ Brown or Larry Johnson played the other. But that could be due to the fact that Ewing was pretty old at this point.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irfyJ0ZRJ2Q[/youtube]