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Every time someone in the media, or really almost anyone mentions Ginobili in reference to his career, they call him this "future hall of famer". Why?? His NBA career isn't up to par, and he certainly wouldn't get in just from his overrated international career, as Ginobili was barely drafted. I just don't see how "hell no", and "no" equal being "yes". Spencer Haywood's done everything Ginobili has and then some, he's not in, JoJo White's not in, yet marginal stars like Reggie Miller and apparently Manu Ginobili can make it just like that??

Nairobi wrote:and he certainly wouldn't get in just from his overrated international career

What?!

Euroleague Championship and Euroleague MVP, Olympic Gold and Bronze, World Championships Silver + multiple FIBA Americans medals.

Manu is one of the best non USA players ever.

2 reasons...

The NBA HOF places a heavy emphasis on team success... far more than the MLB and NFL HOF's
It's actually not the NBA HOF, it's the BASKETBALL HOF. So International Success is taken into account as well

Dennis Johnson and Joe Dumars are in the Hall of Fame mainly because of team success. Ginobili had a similar impact to those guys (those guys were better 2 way players, Gino was a better offensive player) and he had a similar level of team success as those guys.

So when you combine that with the fact that he was the best player on the 2004 Olympic Gold Medal team for Argentina (the ONLY non-USA Gold since NBA players were allowed), you can see why he's considered a future HOFer.

Because the Basketball HOF standards are a joke. If this was Baseball or Football standards, Manu wouldn't have a shot of getting in.

He's not a lock imo, however:

- He won a gold medal over the USA
- He's got 3 rings as a key player, 6Moy
- Euroleague FMVP
- 2 Italian League MVPs
- Silver medal at the World Cup
- 2 South American FIBA Gold Medals

The overall resume is stacked but purely as an NBA player he wouldn't make it. He hasn't even broken 15k points yet.

Ginobili

7 solid years of All-Star level play.

Solid roleplayer on 1 Championship team (03).
Co-man Super-Star on 1 Championship team (05).
Key supporting Star in 1 Championship (07).

He was also a 12 / 5apg guy on the 2013 Spurs with many big games sprinkled here and there so if they had won he certainly would have been a "Key" roleplayer on a very balanced team.

RayBan-Sematra wrote:Ginobili

7 solid years of All-Star level play.

Solid roleplayer on 1 Championship team (03).
Co-man Super-Star on 1 Championship team (05).
Key supporting Star in 1 Championship (07).

He was also a 12 / 5apg guy on the 2013 Spurs with many big games sprinkled here and there so if they had won he certainly would have been a "Key" roleplayer on a very balanced team.

7 All Star level years? Which ones?

Plus, it's the hall of fame, not the hall of very good or the hall of key role player

Kobe Bean wrote:7 All Star level years? Which ones?

You could argue he was an All-Star level player from 05-11.
That is actually 6 years. I realized he probably wasn't at that level in 2012.

Plus, it's the hall of fame, not the hall of very good or the hall of key role player

True. I just wanted to paint a picture of his career for others.
I didn't say he deserved to be in the hall.

I got into the same debate with one of the mods a while back. The problem is that the Basketball Hall of Fame includes international teams (and players as well) which I was not aware (it's not the NBA Hall is what I'm getting at) so I revised my opinion on that one and he probably should (and will) get in.

Coupled with his International play, and what the standard is, probably does it (success in both venues). Interestingly, according to basketball reference (which I have a high regard f0or) list his probably of making the hall at only 0.133. Maybe they need to revise how they calculate it (see bottom of link).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... bma01.html

Kobe Bean wrote:Plus, it's the hall of fame, not the hall of very good or the hall of key role player

So seeing as how it's not the hall of the super elite, can we give Manu a foreign player discount because of his international pedigree?

The basketball HOF has overly low standards and favors players who have success in the minor leagues. I would not vote for Manu primarily because from 2008 on you could never count on him to be healthy through a season.

In 2008, he gets hurt and turns in a putrid series against LA in which SAS had big leads in two of the games which they would have been able to hold if their second best player could stay healthy. In 2009, he misses most of the season and the PS. In 2010, he gets hurt going into the WCSF. In 2011, he misses a game in the first round. In 2012, he misses half the season. Much like Bill Walton he became a parody of himself for a huge part of his career.

However, it needs to be stated his three year from 2005-2007 was better than many HOFers in NBA history even if he was only playing 30mpg. Furthermore, even during those injury years he was still a HOF level player when you could get him in the court.

I will end with a controversial statement. If he had the durability of John Stockton, Manu would be a no question top 25 player of all time.

The combination of his NBA and international careers. There's no way he deserves to be in if it was solely based on his NBA career. If that was the case, then players like T-Mac, Vince, Amare, Bosh would deserve to be in the HOF.

guy1 wrote:The combination of his NBA and international careers. There's no way he deserves to be in if it was solely based on his NBA career. If that was the case, then players like T-Mac, Vince, Amare, Bosh would deserve to be in the HOF.

I would easily take Manu Ginobili over Amare if I was building a team. Manu was a much better basketball player.

RayBan-Sematra wrote:

Kobe Bean wrote:7 All Star level years? Which ones?

You could argue he was an All-Star level player from 05-11.
That is actually 6 years. I realized he probably wasn't at that level in 2012.

Plus, it's the hall of fame, not the hall of very good or the hall of key role player

True. I just wanted to paint a picture of his career for others.
I didn't say he deserved to be in the hall.

IMO he clearly was past any all star level by 2011 and even then some years in between are arguable.

I think he should get in based on his overall resume but I think that if he got in based purely on his NBA career, it'd be laughable.

It depends if you value total production or per-minute production more. When Ginobili was on the court, he was easily a hall of fame caliber player. His per-minute numbers are way better than lots of Hall of Famers. He destroys guys like Dennis Johnson, Joe Dumars, Reggie Miller and is comparable to guys like Bernard King, Gary Payton and Scottie Pippen.

It's true that he only played about 2200 minutes a year rather than the 2900 or so minutes that most of the other HOFers played; but I'd rather have a guy who was exceptional for 2200 minutes than a guy who was pretty good for 2900 minutes. During those 700 extra minutes, Ginobili was presumably replaced by an average, easily-obtainable player. If you added those 700 minutes of stats from the average player to Ginobili's totals, you would still come out with better total production per 2900 minutes than you would from the likes of Dennis Johnson and Joe Dumars.

Also, Ginobili's career NBA totals would look a lot more impressive if he played in the NBA at age 21 through 25 rather than overseas.

I'm no Spurs fan but I can definitely see him getting in. In addition to his intl. career, his NBA career is stellar considering the minutes he played. You mention Spencer Haywood and JoJo White, both of whom had similar raw stats to Ginobili. But look deeper at PER, TS%, WS/48, ORtg and DRtg, and he's clearly above those players, as well as being a key to numerous championships. You seem to prefer raw stats that often have little impact on winning games as opposed to numbers that contribute to winning.

Role player? Maybe so because of limited minutes, but 13th all time WS/48 makes him the best role player in history.

He was the second best player on a championship team multiple times. He also won a Gold Medal playing for Argentina, eliminating Team USA in the process (the biggest feat in Olympic basketball history, bar none).

I dont get how anyone can compare Jojo White to Manu Ginobili. He's vastly superior, by several tiers. Unless you're just looking at numbers on wikipedia, then there is no reason to suggest Manu was not super star talent. He had crap durability and he joined the NBA in his mid 20s, otherwise he'd have a lot more accolades. I don't get what hitting 15k points has to do with anything.

I'd much rather have Manu then Reggie Miller for their careers.

Nairobi wrote: he certainly wouldn't get in just from his overrated international career, as Ginobili was barely drafted. (

DS took you to task over the first clause here, and rightfully so, but I think the second clause is crucial to your misunderstanding.

Ginobili was drafted in 1999, but didn't become a dominant player in Europe beginning in '00-01. By the time Ginobili had joined the Spurs, he had gone from an unknown that basically only the Spurs knew of to being an international star.

Of course as I say this, that's only 2 years of outstanding international play. I could understand if someone didn't think that was enough to change their NBA-based opinion of him. Fundamentally though, if you're a star on a team that wins multiple NBA titles, you make the Hall. With Ginobili, his limited minutes might have been enough to give people doubts as to whether he really qualified, but when you consider Fame-ousness of his play abroad first in the Euroleagues and then leading Argentina to the Gold medal, it would be crazy for him to be the one the voters broke precedent on.

And so, Ginobili's been a lock basically since 2005. Kind of amazing people like yourself can see him as lacking more than 8 years after the issue got settled, but you are far from alone which only illustrates how wacky all of this HOF stuff can be.

Nairobi wrote:Every time someone in the media, or really almost anyone mentions Ginobili in reference to his career, they call him this "future hall of famer". Why?? His NBA career isn't up to par, and he certainly wouldn't get in just from his overrated international career, as Ginobili was barely drafted. I just don't see how "hell no", and "no" equal being "yes". Spencer Haywood's done everything Ginobili has and then some, he's not in, JoJo White's not in, yet marginal stars like Reggie Miller and apparently Manu Ginobili can make it just like that??

He has a pretty great career in the NBA alone. Championships sixth a,n etc.
And then you look at his accolades playing as overseas and for Argentina and you could see why.
In the Era of U.S winning gold in pretty much all the olympics, he took his team to the gold.
HonestlyI would be surprised if he wasnt a first ballot hall of famer