RealGM

Given all the disagreement about him, where do you tend to rate Kobe all-time? I've got him at 14.

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3-5. Magic, Duncan, Shaq
6-9. Bird, Russell, Wilt, Lebron
10. Hakeem
11. Dr J
12. KG
13. Karl Malone

1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Magic
4. Kareem
5. Duncan
6. Shaq
7. Lebron

are ahead of him to me.

You could argue him with like 5-6 other players for that 8th spot between Bird, Hakeem, Wilt, KG, Oscar, Erving, etc. I'm debating between Kobe, KG, and Bird for that 8th spot while my opinion on Wilt continues to get lower due to discovering more and more of his consistent post-season failures.

8-12 is where I have him, where specifically? Not 100% sure yet.

Fringe top 10

I have him at 13. Have James, Garnett & Robertson ahead. Not sure if I'd take Dr.J over Bryant though.

Back-to-back titles as the man (including three straight Finals appearances). Three straight titles as a super-sidekick. Set numerous scoring records in those lean years when his cast was awful. Has demonstrated unbelievable longevity in a game that typically doesn't allow its star players to retain their form.

I'd say he's pretty easily a top ten player.

The thing is, other guys who are in the top 10 have done just as much or more. Plus this is about how good Kobe was at playing basketball, not "counting rings".

career averages of 26/5/5/2/56% TS/112 ORTG over 17 seasons. 27+/6/5+/2/56% TS/113 ORTG over 15 seasons as a starter. 3 straight titles and 4 finals in 5 yrs as the best #2 in history including one of the best post-seasons in history (2001 29+/7+/6+/2+) on the best post-season team ever. amazing +/- numbers in his prime. incredible longevity. NBA MVP. a good 8-9 seasons as a top 3 player in the league. multiple seasons as the best in the league at his peak (06,07,08). 3-yr run where he put up 30/6/6/2/57% TS/115 ORTG/26 PER and led his team to three straight finals and back-to-back championships. top 10 playoff performer ever. GOAT level skill-set.

pretty easily top 10 ever.

ImissJordan wrote:Back-to-back titles as the man (including three straight Finals appearances). Three straight titles as a super-sidekick. Set numerous scoring records in those lean years when his cast was awful. Has demonstrated unbelievable longevity in a game that typically doesn't allow its star players to retain their form.

I'd say he's pretty easily a top ten player.

Basically, I just put him below at 11.

My list

1. Jordan
2. Kaj
3. Russ
4. Magic
5. Duncan
6. Shaq
7. Bird
8. Lebron
9. Akeem
10. Wilt
11. Kobe

1. Michael Jordan
2. Bill Russell
3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4. Tim Duncan
5. Shaquille O'Neal
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Magic Johnson
8. Larry Bird
9. LeBron James
10. Hakeem Olajwuon
11. Kevin Garnett
12. Oscar Robertson
13. Julius Erving
14. Kobe Bryant
15. Jerry West

8. Can't be higher or lower.

1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Wilt
4. Kareem
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Duncan
8. Kobe
9. Shaq
10. LeBron
11. Hakeem
12. Oscar
13. West
14. KG
15. Dirk

It still boggles my mind when I see the likes of KG over him.

You've got Shaq, Lebron and Hakeem over him, so yeh, he can be lower obviously. 72% of voters so far agree with me, and the realgm top 100 vote had him 10th (barely), while he didn't win a single year of the RPOY project. You overrate him.

ardee wrote:It still boggles my mind when I see the likes of KG over him.

I believe most people do this because they value peak play over longevity. I think it's pretty understandable to believe KG had a better peak although in the past I use to think Kobe had the better peak. Kobe has the superior longevity though but I do think Kobe's longevity is actually kind of overrated. People talk about him being in the league for 17+ years but it took him time to be a star and he also stopped being a star for a while.

For the most part, KG and Kobe had a pretty equal amount of seasons as superstars in the league, Kobe obviously gets the edge but it's not as much as most people think. Kobe was a superstar from 2001 to 2010 while KG was a superstar from 2000 to 2008.

I'm not sure how big of a deal you make out of accomplishments but I do think they can be quite futile since a lot of it is based on luck, particularly championship rings. When discussing all-time greats and evaluating them, we want to just simply talk about skills and how dominant they were rather than just how good of a situation they were put in.

ardee wrote:8. Can't be higher or lower.

1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Wilt
4. Kareem
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Duncan
8. Kobe
9. Shaq
10. LeBron
11. Hakeem
12. Oscar
13. West
14. KG
15. Dirk

It still boggles my mind when I see the likes of KG over him.

It boggles my mind that you have him over Shaq.

Since both came into the league at roughly the same time (and age), we can easily compare who was the better player in what year.

96 - KG (Kobe not in the league)
97 - KG
98 - KG
99 - KG
00 - KG
01 - Kobe (due to him stepping up in the playoffs)
02 - KG
03 - KG (best season by Kobe to date, still a clearly better scorer, but KG actually led a comparable offense with Wally and Troy Hudson being his 2nd/3rd options. Minnesota also had the better RS record despite losing to LAL in the playoffs...)
04 - KG (Garnett clearly, his peak coincides with Kobe's craptacular season)
05 - KG (KG still very much in his prime, leads one of the best offenses in the league despite numerous chuckers on it. Kobe's first year without Shaq, manages to lead a good offense - tho' with a more talented cast than KG, but LAL is the worst defensive team in the NBA. Kobe also misses 16 games as well. No contest, KG easily)
06 - Kobe (It is closer than it seems though, but gotta hand it to peak Kobester with the ridiculous offensive load he had to carry, his team was still better than KG's who put forth another very solid season yet again.
07 - Kobe (for more or less the same reasons as above)
08 - KG (This one is though, Kobe was the MVP, but KG won the title and was arguably the real Finals MVP. His new team allowed him to focus more on impacting the defensive end and it clearly showed in a big way, while he still remained a pretty efficient 19 ppg scorer.
09 - Kobe (easily, KG was injured and Kobe won the title)
10 - Kobe
11 - KG (can definitely see an argument for Kobe tho'. Both Boston and Lakers were great but Boston relied on KG anchoring the defense a lot more than LAL did on Bryant's scoring. No doubt the biggest nail in the coffin was Bryant's craptacular playoff display.
12 - KG (sorry Kobe fans but gotta give it to Garnett again. Lakers have fallen off despite still having plenty of talent, Kobe resorts to his chucking ways while KG still mans the best defense in the league and steps up his offensive contribution as well and leads Boston to the ECF averaging 19 (54%TS), 10 rpg, 1.5 bpg
13 - Kobe

Re-count:

KG - 12
Kobe - 6

Even if you throw about 1 or 2 seasons Kobe's way KG still takes the cake and he's been a much more useful contributor than Bryant + you gotta account that Kobe has played a season less than KG while also only accumulating like a 1000 minutes in his rookie year and 2000 in his senior year, KG played 2300 minutes in his rookie year and 3000 in his senior whilst simultaneously being a better player. So yeah, there's the answer for you.

Somewhere around #10.

He has absolutely no case over Jordan.
Bird and Magic peaked higher, were more dominant at their prime. Kobe's longevity is not enough (for me, at least) to compensate.
Then there are those big men... Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, Duncan.

#9 seems reasonable for Kobe, but he still has to beat Hakeem, West, Oscar, K. Malone, Dr. J etc.
And of course, Lebron will overtake him, if he hasn't already.

Jordan
Kareem
Shaq
Russell
Magic
Duncan
Hakeem

The highest I could rank Kobe is probably around #8 below the guys I listed above.
The lowest I could rank Kobe is probably around #15.
Currently I have him at #10.

HeartBreakKid wrote:It boggles my mind that you have him over Shaq.

Same. Shaq's career value is much closer to Jordan's then it is to Bryant's.
There is no reasonable argument to rank Kobe above him.

Jordan
Magic
Russell
Kareem
Shaq
Duncan
LeBron
Wilt
Bird
Kobe/Hakeem

Still waiting for someone to explain why KG clearly ahead of Bryant or should I take the common '5 rings & 81 game' reasoning?

I have him at #8 or #9,i am a big time kobe fan i became lakers fan because of him but even as a die hard kobe fan i cant say he is in top 6 or top 5.Thats just delustional.

However that said he deserves to be ranked higher than 12-15.I think 2FMVP 5 rings 1MVP numerous scoring records and incredible longetivity is what puts him ahead of KG,moses,doc,west even oscar definitely.I am not so sure about kobe vs lebron and kobe vs hakeem.Both lebron and hakeem peaks are better than kobe's,but they dont have kobe's longetivity.In lebrons case he is gonna overtake him definitely but still ...........

Let's look at the factors that people use for player comparisons. Peak, team success, longevity, and I will add in one more, how often the player failed to meet expectations.

Players who are either equal or superior to Kobe on all four factors:

MJ
Russell
Duncan
Shaq

Players who may have failed as much as Kobe but clearly better at everything else:

Kareem
Wilt

Players who don't have the longevity but are clearly better at everything else:

Magic
Bird
Lebron

To me, these 9 players are indisputably better than Kobe. Then you have Hakeem, who doesn't have the team success or the longevity argument over Kobe, but does have three Finals runs that are arguably better than any from Kobe. The lack of team success can be easily attributed to the lack of organizational support that Houston has provided. Hakeem did complain at one point and requested to be traded when things hit rock bottom but he sucked it up and elevated to GOAT level for two playoff runs. Kobe whined and whined until the Lakers got Gasol for nothing and his playing level from 2008-2010 while good was not anywhere as spectacular as Hakeem.

11th is the highest that I would put him. After that, I believe Kobe falls in the group that has Erving, KG, and Malone. While I don't de-value ABA like others I haven't seen a compelling case for Erving to be equal or above Kobe, so at the moment I will leave him out of the running. However, I have seen compelling arguments that has Malone and KG as equals to Kobe, and the only counter arguments I have heard are "Malone doesn't show up in big moments unlike Kobe" or "KG is terrible in the playoffs'.

So 11th-13th, and 14th if someone can present a case for Erving.