Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem

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Highest peak in last 25 years

Lebron 2012,2013,2009,2016 or 2017
62
20%
Jordan 1990, 1991,1992 or 1993
150
49%
Shaq 2000 or 2001
68
22%
Hakeem 1993,1994 or 1995
25
8%
 
Total votes: 305

Gregoire
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Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#1 » by Gregoire » Sat Nov 9, 2013 6:43 pm

Four best peaks from last 25 years.
Which player of the four was more impactful and better player in your opinion at their respective peaks? Which player influence for outcomes of your games the most?
Saying Jordan 1990,91 or 92 ( you can choose yourself), Hakeem 1994 or 1993, Shaqs 2000 season and Lebrons 2012 or 2013 seasons... Which player do you take for imaginary new PO after PO in the season (then its clear how they performed at biggest stages) for win with random team after you know how they played in the RS and PO? So, its more “peak in a vacuum” question.
Or maybe you suggest some other criteria to rank their peak season value? Anyway, rank them from 1 to 4 in order.
Some more thoughts. Each player have some advantages and disadvantages. Obviously for first look its offense and clutch for wings (Jordan and Lebron) and defense for bigs (Shaq, Hakeem). But its not so easy… I consider each of these wings defensive anchors too and both bigs were offensive focal points too for opposing defenses.
So, I try to list each players “+” and “-“.

Lebron 2013.
Positives:
- Best playmaker of the four, very intelligent, good floor spacing
- Best passer and most willing one
- Most versatile defender
- Best in transition offense ( maybe Jordan is close), best transition defender, great finishing at the rim
- Most “team” player of the four, became not ball-dominant
- Most versatile overall offensive player
- Along with Jordan best stamina and durability
Negatives:
- His jumper and overall scoring tend to be worse under pressure
- Questionable mentality of alpha-dog
- Least dominant scorer of the four
- FT % for wing player is not so good
- Post play can be better (but its not weakness even now)

Hakeem 1993 or 94
Positives:
- Best defensive impact of the four with big margin, overall most active defender
- Best at splitting doubles (along with Jordan)
- Better playmaker from the center position than Shaq, great IQ
- Excellent transition O and D from the center
- Great motor
- Huge intangibles and unfearness, will to win, but without nerves
- One of the most versatiles centers ever, great footwork, face-up game, jumper
Negatives:
- If we talk about 94 – not so good rebounder
- Sometimes TO prone
- Not big frame for a center, so can be exploited with big fellas matchups (like Shaq ect)
- Not very good FG% for a center, not so efficient

Shaq 2000.
Positives:
- Biggest mismatch 1-on -1 of the four (in the post), huge physical presence
- Very efficient scorer (most efficient from the field of the our) and good passer with less TO than Hakeem
- Draw most doubles of the four, create a lot of opportunities with it for teammates
- Great offensive rebounder
- Great intimidator as a defender in the lane and big body to protect the paint
- Very good man defender in the post
Negatives:
- Obviously FT% (awful percentage) and because of it clutch factor and issues, hack-a-shaq factor sometimes
- PnR defense and mobility in defense overall (even without health and laziness issues), can be exploded in some matchups, clear worst defender than Hakeem. Questionable about Lebron
- Questionable stamina , motor and durability
- Very predictable and have very small range, so very easy to double and triple, dependence of good passing
- Intangibles and mentality in some sense were issue

Jordan 1990-92
Positives:
- Overall best offensive player of the four
- Best volume scorer and most efficient (TS) one , so best scorer overall, most versatile scorer
- Biggest mismatch for the team, so best creator for himself and teammates because of his uncanny ability to split doubles, triples and to overplay 2,3,4 defenders in one play.
- Great passer and playmaker (worse than Lebron), least TO prone of the four (!!)
- Great transition player (along with Lebron)
- Very good off-ball player and shooter, so create the spacing
- Very good help defender and versatile one, best man defender of the four
- Great stamina, health and durability
- Obviously intangibles, sense of the moment, wll to win, motor, mentality and huge clutch factor (best of the four and maybe the best ever)
Negatives:
- His size didn’t allow him to impact the game in defense even more, but even with 6,6 ft its questionable about his D impact vs Lebron vs Shaq
- 3pt shoot not great like with Kobe, Carter ect, probably worse 3pt shooter than Lebron.
- Sometimes “overmantality” and taking the game personal with issues.
- Tend to be ball-dominant and not trusting teammates


Maybe I overlooked something, back-up your opinion please than post for good discussion.
nate33 wrote:

Yeah, when ever I make all time comparisons, I pretty much ignore the pre-3PT-line era. The game was so different then. It's apples and oranges. Those guys may be better or may be worse, we're never really going to know.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#2 » by SoulInTheHole7 » Sat Nov 9, 2013 6:50 pm

2-4 can all be debated, but Mike's early 90's peak to me is still untouchable.

I'd say:

1. 90-93 Jordan
2. 99-02 Shaq
3. 93-95 Dream
4. 12-13 Lebron
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#3 » by Talent Chaser » Sat Nov 9, 2013 10:56 pm

1a. 99-02 Shaq
1b. 90-93 Jordan
2a. 93-95 Hakeem
2b. LeBron 12-13

However, I'm not sure that Lebron's peak was 12-13. I think there is a real case for 09-10 as being his peak.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#4 » by Mr MoJo Risin » Sat Nov 9, 2013 11:05 pm

1. Jordan complete basketball player eventually
2. Hakeem - dominant big, won rings, rebounding titles, DPOY, good free throw shooter
3. Lebron - Good all round player, not many flaws in his game.
4. Shaq - easy choice. Can dominate in spurts of the game, but was an atrocious free throw shooter.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#5 » by NYK 455 » Sat Nov 9, 2013 11:22 pm

Jordan/Shaq
LeBron
Hakeem

All are pretty damn close though.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#6 » by Matt15 » Sat Nov 9, 2013 11:49 pm

1.Shaq
2.Jordan
3.Hakeem
4.Lebron
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#7 » by RayBan-Sematra » Sun Nov 10, 2013 12:15 am

1. Shaq
2. Jordan
3. Hakeem
4. Lebron
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#8 » by ShowTimeERA » Sun Nov 10, 2013 1:39 am

Tier 1:
Shaq

Tier 2:
Michael
Hakeem

Tier 3:
Lebron
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#9 » by ardee » Sun Nov 10, 2013 2:24 am

1. Jordan
2. LeBron
3. Shaq
4. Hakeem

I think LeBron is clearly the second best offensive player of the bunch, I just think his defensive impact gets underrated in this discussion, leading to me ranking him above Shaq.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#10 » by MacGill » Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:33 am

ardee wrote:1. Jordan
2. LeBron
3. Shaq
4. Hakeem

I think LeBron is clearly the second best offensive player of the bunch, I just think his defensive impact gets underrated in this discussion, leading to me ranking him above Shaq.


Look I get how close these peaks really are, we are not talking about gaps here. But are you really going to tell me that LBJ's offense was so much ahead of Shaq that it neglects peak Shaq's defensive peak + rebounding? Come on man!
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#11 » by Gregoire » Sun Nov 10, 2013 11:15 am

Somebody really thinks Lebrons impact on defense in significantly worse than Shaqs (if at all)? Its very very dishonest.
At the moment I can rank them like these
Offense:
1.Jordan
2.Lebron/Shaq (learn to James)
3.Hakeem
Defense
1.Hakeem
2.Lebron/Shaq (learn to Shaq)
3.Jordan
Overall:
1.Jordan
2.Shaq/Lebron
3.Hakeem

I think these thread is relevant.
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1274796&start=90
nate33 wrote:

Yeah, when ever I make all time comparisons, I pretty much ignore the pre-3PT-line era. The game was so different then. It's apples and oranges. Those guys may be better or may be worse, we're never really going to know.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#12 » by BlackIce » Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:43 pm

1. Jordan
2. Lebron
3. Shaq
4. Hakeem


1. 92 Jordan had no flaws at his peak, perhaps one could say "well he wasn't a great 3 point shooter" but since he wasn't a volume 3 point shooter he didn't really hurt you from there. 92/93 he shot 35% from 3 on 1 3PM so he was respectable at least. Outside of that what can you say? Better off ball then Lebron has ever been, a disruptive defender who could effect the game on that end like few other wings could and the best pure scorer in this discussion with a respectful nod to Shaq.

2. 2013 Lebron is the best passer out of this group and the most versatile. I have him in front of Shaq because Lebron is more of a complete player. Post game, mid range game and a much improved outside game since he came in the league. Not much to say, I loath the guy but he's the only one with the complete package outside of Jordan.

3. If 2000 Shaq was a respectable FT shooter I'd take him. Shaq put it all together once, one year. His pick and roll defense was elite and he has always been an intimidating presence in the lane on both ends. This is all relative though, and when I compare Shaq in this context to Jordan and Lebron I can't put him higher then them. He wasn't consistent enough from the line for my liking (again relative to the other two).

4. 1994 Hakeem is my favourite player of this grouping but in terms of taking over games on the offensive end he wasn't on par with peak Shaq, Jordan or Lebron by the slimmest of margins. I was tempted to bump him up a spot because of his playoff run in 94 but who do I bump down? Hakeem is the worst peak out of the 4, but there are few other peaks I'd take before his outside of this grouping.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#13 » by BlackIce » Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:53 pm

MacGill wrote:
ardee wrote:1. Jordan
2. LeBron
3. Shaq
4. Hakeem

I think LeBron is clearly the second best offensive player of the bunch, I just think his defensive impact gets underrated in this discussion, leading to me ranking him above Shaq.


Look I get how close these peaks really are, we are not talking about gaps here. But are you really going to tell me that LBJ's offense was so much ahead of Shaq that it neglects peak Shaq's defensive peak + rebounding? Come on man!

How about Lebron's playmaking? He runs his team like a point, rebounds like a PF and is the heart of Miami's defense. His versatility on defense allows Miami to switch on picks and apply a lot of pressure on the ball because Lebron is athletic and smart enough to recover when he (or a teammate -help defense) gets beat. Miami held teams to 95 points per game on average - good for 5th best in the league with no defensive anchor at center.

How about Lebron's ability to secure the rebound, start the fast break with an outlet or take the ball full court and finish through contact? Sure Shaq was an elite defensive anchor (most cause he wasn't as fat and could guard the pick and roll better) and was an elite rebounder (again relative to position the gap gets smaller) but you discount Lebron's advantages perhaps.

Before you say Shaq was a great passer for a center (he was) I'd say Lebron is a great rebounder for a SF. Shaq was dominant in the post, and attracted triple teams? You can't triple team Lebron because his vision is too good and he's too unselfish.

These peaks are close enough that no order is unreasonable in my opinion.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#14 » by Gregoire » Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:53 am

BlackIce wrote:1. Jordan
2. Lebron
3. Shaq
4. Hakeem


1. 92 Jordan had no flaws at his peak, perhaps one could say "well he wasn't a great 3 point shooter" but since he wasn't a volume 3 point shooter he didn't really hurt you from there. 92/93 he shot 35% from 3 on 1 3PM so he was respectable at least. Outside of that what can you say? Better off ball then Lebron has ever been, a disruptive defender who could effect the game on that end like few other wings could and the best pure scorer in this discussion with a respectful nod to Shaq.

2. 2013 Lebron is the best passer out of this group and the most versatile. I have him in front of Shaq because Lebron is more of a complete player. Post game, mid range game and a much improved outside game since he came in the league. Not much to say, I loath the guy but he's the only one with the complete package outside of Jordan.

3. If 2000 Shaq was a respectable FT shooter I'd take him. Shaq put it all together once, one year. His pick and roll defense was elite and he has always been an intimidating presence in the lane on both ends. This is all relative though, and when I compare Shaq in this context to Jordan and Lebron I can't put him higher then them. He wasn't consistent enough from the line for my liking (again relative to the other two).

4. 1994 Hakeem is my favourite player of this grouping but in terms of taking over games on the offensive end he wasn't on par with peak Shaq, Jordan or Lebron by the slimmest of margins. I was tempted to bump him up a spot because of his playoff run in 94 but who do I bump down? Hakeem is the worst peak out of the 4, but there are few other peaks I'd take before his outside of this grouping.

Good rankings! Its very tough to rank them at all, Jordan at number 1 maybe one where I am sure.
nate33 wrote:

Yeah, when ever I make all time comparisons, I pretty much ignore the pre-3PT-line era. The game was so different then. It's apples and oranges. Those guys may be better or may be worse, we're never really going to know.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#15 » by Gregoire » Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:23 pm

Strange voting results.. Nobody picked Hakeem for now... Most well-balanced player of the four... He maybe had less hype and popularity due to his personality, but his level of play IMO just there with other 3.
nate33 wrote:

Yeah, when ever I make all time comparisons, I pretty much ignore the pre-3PT-line era. The game was so different then. It's apples and oranges. Those guys may be better or may be worse, we're never really going to know.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#16 » by john248 » Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:10 am

Jordan
Shaq/Lebron
Hakeem
The Last Word
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#17 » by RayBan-Sematra » Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:01 am

As offensive anchors.
1. Jordan
2. Shaq
3. Lebron/Keem (not sure yet) (Lebron has the higher ceiling I think but Hakeem is arguably a less flawed scorer)

I don't think Lebron is equal let alone better then Shaq on the offensive end.
Shaq is a much better and more unstoppable scorer (see 2013 Finals) and while he doesn't create as many raw assists his ability to constantly collapse the defense deep into the paint while drawing more defensive attention overall and while having a lower usage rate allowed him to help his supporting players to similar degree when compared to Bron Bron. I also think he is even more helpful when it comes to supporting stars and not catch and shoot type roleplayers.
Shaq could also control the offensive boards which is another plus for him.

Defensively Lebron has never come close to the impact that Shaq at his Peak had.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#18 » by franktony » Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:24 am

Jordan
Shaq
Hakeem
Lebron
Shaq on Duncan:SA won because of TD, a guy I could never break.I could talk trash to Ewing, get in D-Rob's face, get a rise out of Mourning,but when I went at Tim he’d look at me like he was bored and say:“Hey,Shaq, watch this shot right off the glass.”
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#19 » by Gregoire » Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:40 pm

Why so more answers about bird vs magic vs lebron vs duncan?? these ranking is more close?
nate33 wrote:

Yeah, when ever I make all time comparisons, I pretty much ignore the pre-3PT-line era. The game was so different then. It's apples and oranges. Those guys may be better or may be worse, we're never really going to know.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#20 » by princeton_o » Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:07 am

I rate the four players in their prime, in the following order:

1. Jordan
2. Shaq
3. Lebron
4. Olajuwon

I thought about ranking Shaq #1, in his prime. He's the most physically dominating athlete the game has ever seen, aside from Chamberlain. His size, strength and athleticism made him impossible to defend. But he missed an unusually large number of games throughout his prime, and his free throw shooting was unacceptably poor.

Michael Jordan's level of play has never been matched, and likely never will be. He is the most competitive athlete to ever play a team sport. He has been described as a competitive sociopath, and I agree with this description. If he had been playing in today's era, which is becoming increasingly 3-point centric, I'm convinced he'd do whatever was required to become a top level 3 point shooter.

Lebron James is likely even more gifted athletically than michael jordan. He's taller, stronger, just as fast and has a similar vertical. He's become more proficient at the 3 pt shot than jordan ever was, and is probably a better, and more willing passer.

Unfortunately, Lebron will never be as competitive as Jordan. This is a standard that not even Kobe Bryant could reach, since Jordan's competitive mentality is very close to being pathological and dysfunctional outside of a pro sports context. The gap between Jordan and Lebron is most telling in the playoffs, and especially in the finals. I won't say any more than that, but the evidence speaks for itself.

As far as olajuwon, he is one of the most complete big men to ever play the game. His post game ranks with mchale's as the most creative and effective.

I rate Shaq at his peak, higher than Olajuwon simply because shaq was so much bigger and more athletic. Shaq was rumored to have weighed in, at his most, at 380+ lbs with the lakers. Yet, he still had the speed of a much smaller player. It's just not possible to guard a player who weighs nearly 400 lbs yet still has elite athleticism for a center.

I would choose Jordan over Shaq and Lebron by a slim margin.

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