Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem

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Highest peak in last 25 years

Lebron 2012,2013,2009,2016 or 2017
62
20%
Jordan 1990, 1991,1992 or 1993
150
49%
Shaq 2000 or 2001
68
22%
Hakeem 1993,1994 or 1995
25
8%
 
Total votes: 305

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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#301 » by Gregoire » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:32 am

bump

How do you evaluate Lebron's peak today?
nate33 wrote:

Yeah, when ever I make all time comparisons, I pretty much ignore the pre-3PT-line era. The game was so different then. It's apples and oranges. Those guys may be better or may be worse, we're never really going to know.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#302 » by No-more-rings » Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:51 pm

It’s still Jordan for me, Lebron’s play the past 2-3 seasons changes nothing for me.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#303 » by Gregoire » Thu May 23, 2019 12:53 pm

BUMP!!!!
nate33 wrote:

Yeah, when ever I make all time comparisons, I pretty much ignore the pre-3PT-line era. The game was so different then. It's apples and oranges. Those guys may be better or may be worse, we're never really going to know.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#304 » by liamliam1234 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 2:34 am

Hi, Gregoire, responding to your private message.

To start, I feel there is a semi-clear separation between Jordan/Lebron and Shaq/Hakeem. Most of the cases for the latter are narrative-based, i.e. “Shaq was unstoppable!” and “No one (except maybe 2003 Duncan) carried their team to a title like Hakeem did!” But then you get into questions of relevant competition: is Hakeem narrowly defeating the 1994 Knicks really an innate player advantage compared to Lebron’s absurd 2009 and 2018 performances in ultimately failed seasons? I mean, just considering the debate between 1993 and 1994 Hakeem, the fact 1993 Hakeem loses the statistical battle with the peaks of Jordan and Lebron kind-of speaks for itself. As for Shaq, for all the talk about his dominance (objectively true in a sense), even his best regular season does not quite match up with the best seasons of Lebron and Jordan, and that is before looking at what is ultimately something of a postseason slump.

Anyway, peak Jordan/Lebron feels like an almost superficial distinction, and as much as I try to separate narrative cases, at their level it seems impossible. Jordan does not have an accomplishment like 2016, but Lebron does not have the threepeat runs. Jordan has a major coaching advantage, but he also consistently had a more difficult conference/playoff path. Lebron performed better in elimination scenarios, but Jordan after a certain point mostly avoided those games. The numbers are consistently comparable. Our team data is not advanced enough to truly separate the impact of their supporting casts. The narrative now is that Lebron has longevity and Jordan has top-end dominance, but can we truly say that is the reality of their division? And Lebron just by himself makes it difficult by dominating in such different fashion from 2009 to 2012 to 2018, with athleticism and passing trending in opposite directions. For that matter, can we even truly quite weigh the advantage of Lebron’s passing compared to Jordan’s scoring advantage? Have we been able to demonstrably clarify which has the defensive advantage beyond tritely citing to Jordan as a “lockdown defender” (but still secondary to Pippen), or to Lebron as more athletically capable of guarding multiple positions? I think I favour Jordan by a hair, but I cannot separate all the narratives from that choice.

For Shaq versus Hakeem, it comes down to what we value in terms of peak. I will take Hakeem’s 1993-94 playoff peak over Shaq’s playoff peak, but is it by enough to discount what is a very clear regular season advantage for peak Shaq? And what about the 2001 Kobe effect on (maybe improperly?) diminishing Shaq’s impact metrics? At a certain point, we do need to be mindful of sample size. I think I will take Hakeem because his playoff offence consistently elevated, to a point where I would not say whatever advantage Shaq had there made up for Hakeem’s comfortable defensive advantage. That said, I do understand the case for valuing the larger regular season sample.

[Minor note: Hakeem never seemed to have a team which gave him as much trouble as the Spurs gave Shaq, for whatever that is worth; somewhat tellingly, when Hakeem got his own all-time shooting guard (the main reason the Lakers consistently beat the Spurs, and an instrumental part of the comeback against Portland), the Rockets immediately won another title.]

Final vote:

1. Jordan/James (marginal perception advantage to Jordan)
3. Hakeem
4. Shaq (narrowly)
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#305 » by SeniorWalker » Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:02 am

I've said this before but Jordan and Shaq are so close at peak dominance it could go either way. But Jordan gets the slight edge because his peak was like a 5 year stretch where he was basically a flawless (psychopath) player. Theres no way to exploit 88-93 MJ, either you're going to win or lose, and if the talent between the two teams is relatively equal, you're going to lose.

LeBron is on a similar tier but probably not quite equal. If they're all S tier, MJ and Shaq are S+ and LeBron and Hakeem are S.

So:

MJ
Shaq
LeBron
Hakeem
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#306 » by euroleague » Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:23 am

'90 MJ was 29 years ago. Not 25
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#307 » by Gregoire » Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:21 am

bump
nate33 wrote:

Yeah, when ever I make all time comparisons, I pretty much ignore the pre-3PT-line era. The game was so different then. It's apples and oranges. Those guys may be better or may be worse, we're never really going to know.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#308 » by SeniorWalker » Fri Nov 29, 2019 6:51 pm

Gregoire wrote:bump


Maybe create a longevity Thread comparing LeBron, Kareem, Duncan, etc? Because that's the only question that needs to be answered now. We've seen LeBron's peak/prime years ago and he's certainly not going to get better.

I would be interested in seeing how that is evolving in people's minds as LeBron continues to contribute at a high level.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#309 » by Dutchball97 » Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:05 am

In my opinion Michael Jordan is very underrated as a defensive player by some people. It's logical to think that because Jordan was one of, if not the best offensive player of all time he lacks a bit on other ends. That's just not true though. He was DPOY in 1988 and made an insane 9 All-Defensive 1st teams. I'd take Hakeem over Jordan purely on the defensive department but Hakeem has a realistic case to be the best defender of All Time. He's the second best defender of the 4, the second best playmaker and the best scorer so to me it's pretty much a nobrainer Jordan has the highest peak of any player ever.

LeBron has the problem that he never had 1 season where all his attributes were at their peak. LeBron was an insane scorer in 2012/2013 but not as good as late 80s/early 90s Jordan, LeBron was great defensively at this time but nowhere near Jordan's defense and while his playmaking was superior it wasn't yet what it is now. If LeBron managed to develop his passing game to the level he is at currently, while staying as dynamic of a two way player as he was during the Heat years he might have a case over Jordan but not now.

Third here is Shaq. As a scorer he's just behind Jordan in this one and he was comparable in his defensive impact to LeBron but his shot was a liability and he wasn't a playmaker either. It's difficult to place Shaq for me because he was so dominant in certain aspects of the game while being mediocre at other aspects.

I tried to make a case for Hakeem over Shaq but I couldn't do it. Even though Hakeem has the clear defensive edge I still think the offensive edge Shaq has here is a bigger gap. I'm just not sure I see Hakeem's peak as comparable to the other 3. He was a defensive marvel but offensively he was "just really good" and that doesn't cut it against the offensive impact of prime Jordan, Shaq and LeBron.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#310 » by Jaqua92 » Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:32 am

Dutchball97 wrote:In my opinion Michael Jordan is very underrated as a defensive player by some people. It's logical to think that because Jordan was one of, if not the best offensive player of all time he lacks a bit on other ends. That's just not true though. He was DPOY in 1988 and made an insane 9 All-Defensive 1st teams. I'd take Hakeem over Jordan purely on the defensive department but Hakeem has a realistic case to be the best defender of All Time. He's the second best defender of the 4, the second best playmaker and the best scorer so to me it's pretty much a nobrainer Jordan has the highest peak of any player ever.

LeBron has the problem that he never had 1 season where all his attributes were at their peak. LeBron was an insane scorer in 2012/2013 but not as good as late 80s/early 90s Jordan, LeBron was great defensively at this time but nowhere near Jordan's defense and while his playmaking was superior it wasn't yet what it is now. If LeBron managed to develop his passing game to the level he is at currently, while staying as dynamic of a two way player as he was during the Heat years he might have a case over Jordan but not now.

Third here is Shaq. As a scorer he's just behind Jordan in this one and he was comparable in his defensive impact to LeBron but his shot was a liability and he wasn't a playmaker either. It's difficult to place Shaq for me because he was so dominant in certain aspects of the game while being mediocre at other aspects.

I tried to make a case for Hakeem over Shaq but I couldn't do it. Even though Hakeem has the clear defensive edge I still think the offensive edge Shaq has here is a bigger gap. I'm just not sure I see Hakeem's peak as comparable to the other 3. He was a defensive marvel but offensively he was "just really good" and that doesn't cut it against the offensive impact of prime Jordan, Shaq and LeBron.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#311 » by Gregoire » Fri Apr 17, 2020 3:00 pm

Dutchball97 wrote:In my opinion Michael Jordan is very underrated as a defensive player by some people. It's logical to think that because Jordan was one of, if not the best offensive player of all time he lacks a bit on other ends. That's just not true though. He was DPOY in 1988 and made an insane 9 All-Defensive 1st teams. I'd take Hakeem over Jordan purely on the defensive department but Hakeem has a realistic case to be the best defender of All Time. He's the second best defender of the 4, the second best playmaker and the best scorer so to me it's pretty much a nobrainer Jordan has the highest peak of any player ever.

LeBron has the problem that he never had 1 season where all his attributes were at their peak. LeBron was an insane scorer in 2012/2013 but not as good as late 80s/early 90s Jordan, LeBron was great defensively at this time but nowhere near Jordan's defense and while his playmaking was superior it wasn't yet what it is now. If LeBron managed to develop his passing game to the level he is at currently, while staying as dynamic of a two way player as he was during the Heat years he might have a case over Jordan but not now.

Third here is Shaq. As a scorer he's just behind Jordan in this one and he was comparable in his defensive impact to LeBron but his shot was a liability and he wasn't a playmaker either. It's difficult to place Shaq for me because he was so dominant in certain aspects of the game while being mediocre at other aspects.

I tried to make a case for Hakeem over Shaq but I couldn't do it. Even though Hakeem has the clear defensive edge I still think the offensive edge Shaq has here is a bigger gap. I'm just not sure I see Hakeem's peak as comparable to the other 3. He was a defensive marvel but offensively he was "just really good" and that doesn't cut it against the offensive impact of prime Jordan, Shaq and LeBron.


Great post!
I also have MJ at number 1 and Shaq\ Lebron tied at 2 (but for current era Lebron is ahead). Just curious, if MJ your top peak ever? Or maybe Wilt, Kareem?
nate33 wrote:

Yeah, when ever I make all time comparisons, I pretty much ignore the pre-3PT-line era. The game was so different then. It's apples and oranges. Those guys may be better or may be worse, we're never really going to know.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#312 » by Dutchball97 » Fri Apr 17, 2020 3:21 pm

Gregoire wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:In my opinion Michael Jordan is very underrated as a defensive player by some people. It's logical to think that because Jordan was one of, if not the best offensive player of all time he lacks a bit on other ends. That's just not true though. He was DPOY in 1988 and made an insane 9 All-Defensive 1st teams. I'd take Hakeem over Jordan purely on the defensive department but Hakeem has a realistic case to be the best defender of All Time. He's the second best defender of the 4, the second best playmaker and the best scorer so to me it's pretty much a nobrainer Jordan has the highest peak of any player ever.

LeBron has the problem that he never had 1 season where all his attributes were at their peak. LeBron was an insane scorer in 2012/2013 but not as good as late 80s/early 90s Jordan, LeBron was great defensively at this time but nowhere near Jordan's defense and while his playmaking was superior it wasn't yet what it is now. If LeBron managed to develop his passing game to the level he is at currently, while staying as dynamic of a two way player as he was during the Heat years he might have a case over Jordan but not now.

Third here is Shaq. As a scorer he's just behind Jordan in this one and he was comparable in his defensive impact to LeBron but his shot was a liability and he wasn't a playmaker either. It's difficult to place Shaq for me because he was so dominant in certain aspects of the game while being mediocre at other aspects.

I tried to make a case for Hakeem over Shaq but I couldn't do it. Even though Hakeem has the clear defensive edge I still think the offensive edge Shaq has here is a bigger gap. I'm just not sure I see Hakeem's peak as comparable to the other 3. He was a defensive marvel but offensively he was "just really good" and that doesn't cut it against the offensive impact of prime Jordan, Shaq and LeBron.


Great post!
I also have MJ at number 1 and Shaq\ Lebron tied at 2 (but for current era Lebron is ahead). Just curious, if MJ your top peak ever? Or maybe Wilt, Kareem?


I don't really keep a peak list. That's probably something I'll get to as I'm on this forum longer but yeah I think MJ peaked higher than anyone.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#313 » by coastalmarker99 » Fri May 22, 2020 8:56 am

Gregoire wrote:Four best peaks from last 25 years.
Which player of the four was more impactful and better player in your opinion at their respective peaks? Which player influence for outcomes of your games the most?
Saying Jordan 1990,91 or 92 ( you can choose yourself), Hakeem 1994 or 1993, Shaqs 2000 season and Lebrons 2012 or 2013 seasons... Which player do you take for imaginary new PO after PO in the season (then its clear how they performed at biggest stages) for win with random team after you know how they played in the RS and PO? So, its more “peak in a vacuum” question.
Or maybe you suggest some other criteria to rank their peak season value? Anyway, rank them from 1 to 4 in order.
Some more thoughts. Each player have some advantages and disadvantages. Obviously for first look its offense and clutch for wings (Jordan and Lebron) and defense for bigs (Shaq, Hakeem). But its not so easy… I consider each of these wings defensive anchors too and both bigs were offensive focal points too for opposing defenses.
So, I try to list each players “+” and “-“.

Lebron 2013.
Positives:
- Best playmaker of the four, very intelligent, good floor spacing
- Best passer and most willing one
- Most versatile defender
- Best in transition offense ( maybe Jordan is close), best transition defender, great finishing at the rim
- Most “team” player of the four, became not ball-dominant
- Most versatile overall offensive player
- Along with Jordan best stamina and durability
Negatives:
- His jumper and overall scoring tend to be worse under pressure
- Questionable mentality of alpha-dog
- Least dominant scorer of the four
- FT % for wing player is not so good
- Post play can be better (but its not weakness even now)

Hakeem 1993 or 94
Positives:
- Best defensive impact of the four with big margin, overall most active defender
- Best at splitting doubles (along with Jordan)
- Better playmaker from the center position than Shaq, great IQ
- Excellent transition O and D from the center
- Great motor
- Huge intangibles and unfearness, will to win, but without nerves
- One of the most versatiles centers ever, great footwork, face-up game, jumper
Negatives:
- If we talk about 94 – not so good rebounder
- Sometimes TO prone
- Not big frame for a center, so can be exploited with big fellas matchups (like Shaq ect)
- Not very good FG% for a center, not so efficient

Shaq 2000.
Positives:
- Biggest mismatch 1-on -1 of the four (in the post), huge physical presence
- Very efficient scorer (most efficient from the field of the our) and good passer with less TO than Hakeem
- Draw most doubles of the four, create a lot of opportunities with it for teammates
- Great offensive rebounder
- Great intimidator as a defender in the lane and big body to protect the paint
- Very good man defender in the post
Negatives:
- Obviously FT% (awful percentage) and because of it clutch factor and issues, hack-a-shaq factor sometimes
- PnR defense and mobility in defense overall (even without health and laziness issues), can be exploded in some matchups, clear worst defender than Hakeem. Questionable about Lebron
- Questionable stamina , motor and durability
- Very predictable and have very small range, so very easy to double and triple, dependence of good passing
- Intangibles and mentality in some sense were issue

Jordan 1990-92
Positives:
- Overall best offensive player of the four
- Best volume scorer and most efficient (TS) one , so best scorer overall, most versatile scorer
- Biggest mismatch for the team, so best creator for himself and teammates because of his uncanny ability to split doubles, triples and to overplay 2,3,4 defenders in one play.
- Great passer and playmaker (worse than Lebron), least TO prone of the four (!!)
- Great transition player (along with Lebron)
- Very good off-ball player and shooter, so create the spacing
- Very good help defender and versatile one, best man defender of the four
- Great stamina, health and durability
- Obviously intangibles, sense of the moment, wll to win, motor, mentality and huge clutch factor (best of the four and maybe the best ever)
Negatives:
- His size didn’t allow him to impact the game in defense even more, but even with 6,6 ft its questionable about his D impact vs Lebron vs Shaq
- 3pt shoot not great like with Kobe, Carter ect, probably worse 3pt shooter than Lebron.
- Sometimes “overmantality” and taking the game personal with issues.
- Tend to be ball-dominant and not trusting teammates


Maybe I overlooked something, back-up your opinion please than post for good discussion.


I would go Shaq at number 1 for peak because Shaq was unstoppable in his peak and had a bigger impact on both sides of the court then Jordan and Lebron's Mainly through because he is a center and they affect both ends more then guards and small forwards. Most teams were helpless against Shaq from 2000 to 2002 as he opened up the floor a lot for his teammates as he had to be double-teamed and triple-teamed sometimes otherwise it was a automatic two points if he was one on one and Shaq was a good passer so he could punish you for double-teaming him. Through his free throws are an issue he did make them when it counted like the kings game 7 in 2002


I would go Jordan at number 2 his peak from 91 to 93 is crazy with him being at the peak of his powers especially in the 1993 finals he was a great defender a legendary scorer and a good passer as well with the example being the 1991 finals where he averaged 11 assists a game.

And I would go Lebron at number 3 I love the way he played in 2013 I think he should have won the Dopy that year along with his MVP he was at his best this year on defence and he was young enough to go all out on both ends for 48 minutes. But I will penalise him for the 2013 finals series though the first 5 games he was below average that series before he went off in game 6 and 7. I think though the first 3 games of that series he was averaging 16 points a game and below his normal shooting percentage. I would say offensively through LeBron peak year was 2018 his jumper was on fire throughout the playoffs that year, in 2013 teams could dear him to shoot jumpers 2018 LeBron not so much.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#314 » by Pelly24 » Mon May 25, 2020 3:55 pm

I actually think 2016-2018 LeBron is the only one of these people that's as good as MJ, and considering his size and athleticism and skills, I'd take that version of LeBron over anyone else in the playoffs in a vacuum where I have no idea who the teammates will be.

2009 and 2010 LeBron are still great but I feel like they'd have the same issues with a lack of resoluteness when it comes to just gunning when there's no other choice. After 2k15 when he kept the cavs afloat against the Warriors without Kyrie or Kevin Love, LeBron sort of flipped a switch and realized he could do any and everything, and since then he just takes as many shots as needed and he knows he's better off shooting than anyone else. By 2017 and 2018, he could hit every shot, score in any way and do everything else and he had the confidence to do it. Against the Spurs in 2013, it was just weird. He'd get so damn passive.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#315 » by Gregoire » Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:04 pm

bump
nate33 wrote:

Yeah, when ever I make all time comparisons, I pretty much ignore the pre-3PT-line era. The game was so different then. It's apples and oranges. Those guys may be better or may be worse, we're never really going to know.

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