Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem

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Highest peak in last 25 years

Lebron 2012,2013,2009,2016 or 2017
62
20%
Jordan 1990, 1991,1992 or 1993
150
49%
Shaq 2000 or 2001
68
22%
Hakeem 1993,1994 or 1995
25
8%
 
Total votes: 305

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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#221 » by Quotatious » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:07 am

rebirthoftheM wrote:Shaq 2000 was the GOAT. No player in modern times (ill exclude peak Wilt here) has put defenses at their mercy like Shaq did that season. Anyone who was watching the NBA that season would recall the level of demoralisation Shaq caused that season on both ends. He legitimately scared opponents on both sides of the court. The other dudes are great, but Shaqs 7 foot 300 pound athletic powerful skillful self was something else. They had to introduce zone defenses to help curb his effectiveness. I do not think well ever see a player like that again. I dont think the metrics that season do him justice.

Offensively, I think Curry in 2015-16 season demoralized defenses just as much as 2000 Shaq, he just did it with skill/finesse rather than power/athleticism like Shaq (granted, Curry wasn't the same in the playoffs, Shaq was).
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#222 » by Colbinii » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:10 pm

Gregoire wrote:
SactoKingsFan wrote:
Gregoire wrote:
Yes, IMO its the indicator of his peak being legitimately not-fluke and not coincidence of circumstances. In the case of Shaq 2000 (weak competition, Duncan injury) and Hakeem 1994-95 (Jordan retired) its not the case. Lebron... I dont know.


Shaq clearly peaked in 2000 but he had other near peak seasons and Hakeem's extended peak was from 93-95. LeBron has 3-4 seasons that can be argued as his peak.

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Ok, Shaq has 2 such seasons - 00 and 01(PO), Hakeem - 2 (93,94), Lebron - 3(09,12,13), MJ... 5 (89,90,91,92,93(PO))

If you are going to use 93 postseason Jordan then you should include 2016 postseason James, no?

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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#223 » by Joao Saraiva » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:36 pm

I personally have them as:
- LeBron 2009
- Jordan 1991
- Shaq 2000
- Hakeem 1994

I think, however, the gaps are really small. Any order is acceptable.

Didn't vote on the pole, since I have LBJ 2009 as his peak instead of 13.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#224 » by Gregoire » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:42 pm

Quotatious wrote:
rebirthoftheM wrote:Shaq 2000 was the GOAT. No player in modern times (ill exclude peak Wilt here) has put defenses at their mercy like Shaq did that season. Anyone who was watching the NBA that season would recall the level of demoralisation Shaq caused that season on both ends. He legitimately scared opponents on both sides of the court. The other dudes are great, but Shaqs 7 foot 300 pound athletic powerful skillful self was something else. They had to introduce zone defenses to help curb his effectiveness. I do not think well ever see a player like that again. I dont think the metrics that season do him justice.

Offensively, I think Curry in 2015-16 season demoralized defenses just as much as 2000 Shaq, he just did it with skill/finesse rather than power/athleticism like Shaq (granted, Curry wasn't the same in the playoffs, Shaq was).


What about MJ 90-92? IMO he was at Curry level and a tier above Shaq as dominant offensive precense (especially in the PO)...
nate33 wrote:

Yeah, when ever I make all time comparisons, I pretty much ignore the pre-3PT-line era. The game was so different then. It's apples and oranges. Those guys may be better or may be worse, we're never really going to know.
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#225 » by Gregoire » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:43 pm

Colbinii wrote:
Gregoire wrote:
SactoKingsFan wrote:
Shaq clearly peaked in 2000 but he had other near peak seasons and Hakeem's extended peak was from 93-95. LeBron has 3-4 seasons that can be argued as his peak.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


Ok, Shaq has 2 such seasons - 00 and 01(PO), Hakeem - 2 (93,94), Lebron - 3(09,12,13), MJ... 5 (89,90,91,92,93(PO))

If you are going to use 93 postseason Jordan then you should include 2016 postseason James, no?

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Yes, you are right, but maybe just Finals then he played at peak level, not entire PO
nate33 wrote:

Yeah, when ever I make all time comparisons, I pretty much ignore the pre-3PT-line era. The game was so different then. It's apples and oranges. Those guys may be better or may be worse, we're never really going to know.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#226 » by Gregoire » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:45 pm

Joao Saraiva wrote:I personally have them as:
- LeBron 2009
- Jordan 1991
- Shaq 2000
- Hakeem 1994

I think, however, the gaps are really small. Any order is acceptable.

Didn't vote on the pole, since I have LBJ 2009 as his peak instead of 13.


You can vote now!
nate33 wrote:

Yeah, when ever I make all time comparisons, I pretty much ignore the pre-3PT-line era. The game was so different then. It's apples and oranges. Those guys may be better or may be worse, we're never really going to know.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#227 » by Joao Saraiva » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:47 pm

Gregoire wrote:
Joao Saraiva wrote:I personally have them as:
- LeBron 2009
- Jordan 1991
- Shaq 2000
- Hakeem 1994

I think, however, the gaps are really small. Any order is acceptable.

Didn't vote on the pole, since I have LBJ 2009 as his peak instead of 13.


You can vote now!


Done ;)
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#228 » by Quotatious » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:06 pm

Gregoire wrote:What about MJ 90-92? IMO he was at Curry level and a tier above Shaq as dominant offensive precense (especially in the PO)...

Jordan is IMO better than Shaq as an offensive force, because of his far superior range, shooting and ability to create for himself from any spot on the court, but I was talking about the "panic factor" or "gravity" or "defense distortion", if you will. I think 2000 Shaq and 2016 Curry had more of that, than any other player in NBA history. Teams tried to guard 1990-92 Jordan a different way than Shaq or Curry, they didn't collapse their defense as much on MJ, they allowed him to work 1 on 1 more than Shaq or Curry, basically they just wanted to concede 30-40 points to MJ and focus on limiting his teammates. Doesn't mean Jordan was a worse offensive player, just means that teams defended him a different way.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#229 » by rebirthoftheM » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:26 pm

Quotatious wrote:
Gregoire wrote:What about MJ 90-92? IMO he was at Curry level and a tier above Shaq as dominant offensive precense (especially in the PO)...

Jordan is IMO better than Shaq as an offensive force, because of his far superior range, shooting and ability to create for himself from any spot on the court, but I was talking about the "panic factor" or "gravity" or "defense distortion", if you will. I think 2000 Shaq and 2016 Curry had more of that, than any other player in NBA history. Teams tried to guard 1990-92 Jordan a different way than Shaq or Curry, they didn't collapse their defense as much on MJ, they allowed him to work 1 on 1 more than Shaq or Curry, basically they just wanted to concede 30-40 points to MJ and focus on limiting his teammates. Doesn't mean Jordan was a worse offensive player, just means that teams defended him a different way.


Solid points regarding MJ and Co. And with respect to Shaq v Curry... I feel like with Curry, the league was "amazed" with his dazzling play. He played the same with a lot of grace, and could get shots off from anywhere

Shaq meanwhile seriously angered and frustrated the entire league, in large part because opposing teams believed he was committing an offensive foul on half his possessions. It was bully ball at its finest, and Shaq was physically punishing teams consistently. So this is getting real subjective, but Shaq in 2000 took the wind out of teams like no other IMO, because he made teams feel helpless. Opposing teams thought that the rules in the NBA were allowing Shaq to get away with murder, and there was nothing they could do about it.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#230 » by fpliii » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:36 pm

Quotatious wrote:
Gregoire wrote:What about MJ 90-92? IMO he was at Curry level and a tier above Shaq as dominant offensive precense (especially in the PO)...

Jordan is IMO better than Shaq as an offensive force, because of his far superior range, shooting and ability to create for himself from any spot on the court, but I was talking about the "panic factor" or "gravity" or "defense distortion", if you will. I think 2000 Shaq and 2016 Curry had more of that, than any other player in NBA history. Teams tried to guard 1990-92 Jordan a different way than Shaq or Curry, they didn't collapse their defense as much on MJ, they allowed him to work 1 on 1 more than Shaq or Curry, basically they just wanted to concede 30-40 points to MJ and focus on limiting his teammates. Doesn't mean Jordan was a worse offensive player, just means that teams defended him a different way.

I think this is fair and is in part due to the rules of the time. The illegal defense regulations didn't allow a lot of doubling off ball (particular in and around the post), which really limits the gravity effect a player can have.

A few years ago when we first got the gravity ratings, a lot of the names were what you'd expect (lots of amazing shooters and then a few guys like Dirk), Wade (after adopting his off-ball cutting playstyle was featured high in such rankings:

Spoiler:
Dwyane Wade has been great at many things on the basketball court. But one skill has always escaped him: 3-point shooting.

This isn't breaking news to anyone who has followed his tenure in the NBA. Wade is a career 29 percent 3-point shooter, a sorry figure that places him 311th among the 315 players in NBA history who have shot at least 1,000 3-pointers.

But Wade has adjusted. Starting in the lockout-shortened 2011-12 season, Wade kicked the habit for the most part and generally expelled the 3-point shot from his regular jump-shooting diet. In 2013-14, Wade's propensity for shooting (and making) the 3 hit a career nadir; he took only 32 trifectas and made only nine during the entire regular season. Five years ago, he might have stumbled into making nine treys in a single week. Those days are long gone.

But here's the crazy thing about all that: Opposing defenses still glued themselves to Wade off the ball like he's the next Steve Kerr.

This isn't just a theory; there is quantifiable evidence of this phenomenon. According to data provided by STATS LLC from cutting-edge SportVU cameras that track the movement of the ball and every player last season, defenses stuck to Wade on the perimeter as if he were an elite 3-point shooter.

The question is, why?

During one of last week's practices, Wade was on the Miami Heat's practice court upstairs at AmericanAirlines Arena. The team has been struggling to find its identity in the wake of LeBron James' sudden departure this summer, and Wade had just wrapped up a long, arduous practice meticulously going over coach Erik Spoelstra's defensive principles. Wade and his teammates are tired, and the general mood feels grim after a string of hard losses.

But in this moment, Wade is laughing. He's giggling because for so long he thought he was going crazy, seeing something on the court that had to be a figment of his imagination. Opposing defenses just won't leave him alone off the ball. To him, this didn't make any sense. He's not a 3-point shooter.

"Lately, I've been seeing everybody start doing this more," Wade said as he turned his back pretending to be a defender gluing himself to a perimeter shooter. "And I'm just like, 'Damn, did I just start shooting 3s and I didn't know about it?'"

To Wade's elation, the data from SportVU cameras corroborated his story. He wasn't seeing things; defenses were really playing him that way.

What Wade was describing was the dynamic of a floor-spacer who spreads the defense thin, a characteristic almost exclusively held by 3-point sharpshooters. Ask an NBA coach to name the best floor-spacers in the league and chances are you'll hear names like Kyle Korver, Stephen Curry and Klay Thompson. You do not leave these guys on the perimeter and live to tell about it. In the domain of floor-spacing, shooters rule the day.

Wade, however, is the quirk in the system. The statisticians at STATS LLC have crunched the SportVU data to come up with two advanced metrics which they've called "gravity score" and "distraction score." By tracking how the defense shifts at every instance in the game, gravity score attempts to quantify how much defensive attention a player receives when he's off the ball. In other words, a player's gravitational pull on the opposing defense.

Distraction score takes this one step further and quantifies how much a player's defender is willing to help off him to stop the ball handler. If a lights-out shooter is standing in the corner, his defender will rarely leave him to stop a penetrating point guard. Coaches have noticed this, but SportVU quantifies it, through comprehensive optical tracking and innovative algorithms.

I wanted to examine which players performed strongly in both metrics so I could identify the NBA's true floor-spacers. So I blended the two metrics together to create a composite metric, which I've called "respect rating."

Now, this is where it gets interesting. Flipping through the leaders in respect rating is like glancing at a list of 3-point contest candidates. There's Kevin Durant. Predictably, Korver's name shows up high on the list. So do Curry and Thompson. Ray Allen. J.J. Redick. You name the sharpshooter ... he's there.

But oddly enough, so is Wade. He is the anomaly, the lone floor-spacer who ignores 3s altogether.

Image

As illustrated above, Wade converted 0.2 3-pointers every 36 minutes on the court last season, which is remarkably low for someone ranked in the top 25 of respect rating. On average, the other 24 players made far more trifectas than Wade, about 2.2 3s every 36 minutes. Wade was unique in this sense. In fact, no wing player with fewer than 0.5 3-pointers every 36 minutes even cracked the top 100 in respect rating. Tyreke Evans, Shaun Livingston and Tony Allen? All nowhere near the upper echelon.

But then there's Wade.

"I don't think anybody has ever called me that term -- a floor-spacer -- before," Wade says. "But honestly I've always known that I'm a floor-spacer, just in a different way."

So what makes Wade different? Why do defenses treat Wade like he's an elite 3-point shooter even though he's not?

"They're always up on me," Wade says. "I always wonder why."

The answer to this riddle is not simply that Wade scores a lot of points. It's how he gets his points that matters. More specifically, he's a deadly off-ball threat not because he's a 3-point shooter, but because he's a lethal cutter.

The mystery starts to reveal itself when you look at the Synergy numbers. Since losing the 2011 Finals, Wade says he has dedicated himself to cutting off the ball more for easy buckets. Not surprisingly, the data backs this up. According to Synergy's video tracking, Wade has accumulated 497 points on cuts off the ball, which is 100 more points than anyone else in the league over that time.

Image

What's clear is that Wade is indeed a floor-spacer, but he does it by cutting, not shooting.

And SportVU has detected that defenses are programming against it. Through their algorithms, SportVU has found that Wade pulls his defender away from the ball handler. Last season, Wade ranked 21st in the league in respect rating, which, interestingly enough, places him even higher than James. Part of the reason: James is not quite the same cutter off the ball as Wade.

I think once I became a dynamic cutter, then it became a part of the scouting report," Wade says. "If you turn your head and go help ... boom, I'm cutting backdoor."

On the practice floor, Wade put on an impromptu demonstration all by himself. He acted like a coach, moving around the perimeter and angling himself in different ways to demonstrate how defenses used to guard him compared to how they've guarded him more recently. Before he developed his off-ball cutting game, his defender used to shade off of him on the perimeter, sinking into the paint and keeping a close eye on the ball. "Now," Wade shouted as he slid from the paint to the 3-point arc, "they will guard me like this."

Wade's gravitational pull has gotten so impactful that he began to use it against his opposition.

"There have been a lot of times where I tell my teammates, 'Just drive on my side! They're not leaving me!'" Wade said, laughing.

Wade then backtracked a bit.

"Well, it's not like 'Ray Allen not leaving me,'" he says, "but it's my version of not leaving me."

Indeed, Allen placed higher than Wade in respect rating last season. Evidently, Wade's remarkable cutting abilities have not gone unnoticed. Heat.com writer Couper Moorhead has chronicled Wade's now-you-see-me-now-you-don't routine, dubbing it "ghost cuts." Last season, Wade scored 147 points on 97 plays ending in a cut, which translates to a ridiculously good payoff of 1.52 points per play. Only Dwight Howard was more efficient. By comparison, leaving Allen open for a catch-and-shoot play last season -- a defensive cardinal sin -- resulted in a 1.2-point average payoff. Wade's move was more deadly.

Wade stood in the corner and described how he works his magic. He preys on his defender as soon as he drifts away and loses focus.

"It's a feeling, but I'm watching my guy's eyes," Wade said. "I'm looking at the ball and where it's going, because sometimes my job is to run to the top of the key, but if I see he's out of position and he's just looking [toward the ball] ..."

Wade darted to the basket.

"... I'm gone."

But that was then, this is now. Can Wade be effective on cuts without James around anymore?

This is the elephant in the room. James is a passing virtuoso who can see above the defenses like he's observing from an air traffic control tower. Wade was always one pass away, and no player assisted Wade's field goals more than James last season.

It remains to be seen whether teams will be willing to pack the paint more when Wade is off the ball. Why respect his cutting game so much if James isn't around to deliver the pass? It turns out Wade would welcome the extra breathing room.

"That'd be great, fine by me," Wade says. "It'd give me a chance to get my 3 off."

Uh-oh. The career 29 percent 3-point shooter wants to shoot more 3s? Teams may be rooting for that counterpunch.

Wade has indeed taken more 3-pointers this preseason. He's shot 2.7 3-pointers every 36 minutes thus far in five games, which would be his highest rate since 2009-10. He made just 30 percent from deep that season.

"It's funny," he says, "because in the last couple games, I've hit a couple 3s and the guys who are guarding me have looked at me like, 'What?'"

The look typically comes from younger players who only know the James-era Wade.

"Y'all forgot that I did shoot 3s," Wade says. "Last three years I just haven't done it."

And that discipline worked in the Heat's favor. Oftentimes, there were better shots available thanks to James' presence. But now the exchange rate has been disrupted with James gone.

The Heat may have lost James' passing abilities, but they hope that free-agent signee Josh McRoberts can fill some of the void. McRoberts, who has missed the preseason with a toe injury, averaged 4.5 assists per game last season in Charlotte, which marks one of the highest rates in the league among big men. And much of those went to Gerald Henderson and Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, two players who like to cut off the ball, like Wade.

This introduces an interesting wrinkle for Wade's season, and really the rest of his NBA career. Will he need to start shooting 3-pointers to maintain his gravitational pull as he ages? Or has the attention derived from his cutting game made the 3-pointer irrelevant?

Nonetheless, get ready for more 3-pointers from Wade.

"I'm going to shoot 'em more," Wade says, which sounds a little like a warning than a prediction. "It is what it is."

You have our full attention, Dwyane. Let's see how long it lasts.


Source.

I think there are a couple of questions worth answering, which may not be completely obvious:

(1) Was early 90s MJ at the least same caliber of off-ball cutter as Wade (a stylistic historic similar of Jordan's in general) in terms of frequency and efficacy?

(2) If MJ's cutting ability is superior, would it be enough to catapault him from the Wade tier to Curry/Shaq territory (again, playing in the modern post-illegal defense era, where opposing defenses can react to a player's gravity without restriction)?
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#231 » by micahclay » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:53 pm

fpliii wrote:
Quotatious wrote:
Gregoire wrote:What about MJ 90-92? IMO he was at Curry level and a tier above Shaq as dominant offensive precense (especially in the PO)...

Jordan is IMO better than Shaq as an offensive force, because of his far superior range, shooting and ability to create for himself from any spot on the court, but I was talking about the "panic factor" or "gravity" or "defense distortion", if you will. I think 2000 Shaq and 2016 Curry had more of that, than any other player in NBA history. Teams tried to guard 1990-92 Jordan a different way than Shaq or Curry, they didn't collapse their defense as much on MJ, they allowed him to work 1 on 1 more than Shaq or Curry, basically they just wanted to concede 30-40 points to MJ and focus on limiting his teammates. Doesn't mean Jordan was a worse offensive player, just means that teams defended him a different way.

I think this is fair and is in part due to the rules of the time. The illegal defense regulations didn't allow a lot of doubling off ball (particular in and around the post), which really limits the gravity effect a player can have.

A few years ago when we first got the gravity ratings, a lot of the names were what you'd expect (lots of amazing shooters and then a few guys like Dirk), Wade (after adopting his off-ball cutting playstyle was featured high in such rankings:

Spoiler:
Dwyane Wade has been great at many things on the basketball court. But one skill has always escaped him: 3-point shooting.

This isn't breaking news to anyone who has followed his tenure in the NBA. Wade is a career 29 percent 3-point shooter, a sorry figure that places him 311th among the 315 players in NBA history who have shot at least 1,000 3-pointers.

But Wade has adjusted. Starting in the lockout-shortened 2011-12 season, Wade kicked the habit for the most part and generally expelled the 3-point shot from his regular jump-shooting diet. In 2013-14, Wade's propensity for shooting (and making) the 3 hit a career nadir; he took only 32 trifectas and made only nine during the entire regular season. Five years ago, he might have stumbled into making nine treys in a single week. Those days are long gone.

But here's the crazy thing about all that: Opposing defenses still glued themselves to Wade off the ball like he's the next Steve Kerr.

This isn't just a theory; there is quantifiable evidence of this phenomenon. According to data provided by STATS LLC from cutting-edge SportVU cameras that track the movement of the ball and every player last season, defenses stuck to Wade on the perimeter as if he were an elite 3-point shooter.

The question is, why?

During one of last week's practices, Wade was on the Miami Heat's practice court upstairs at AmericanAirlines Arena. The team has been struggling to find its identity in the wake of LeBron James' sudden departure this summer, and Wade had just wrapped up a long, arduous practice meticulously going over coach Erik Spoelstra's defensive principles. Wade and his teammates are tired, and the general mood feels grim after a string of hard losses.

But in this moment, Wade is laughing. He's giggling because for so long he thought he was going crazy, seeing something on the court that had to be a figment of his imagination. Opposing defenses just won't leave him alone off the ball. To him, this didn't make any sense. He's not a 3-point shooter.

"Lately, I've been seeing everybody start doing this more," Wade said as he turned his back pretending to be a defender gluing himself to a perimeter shooter. "And I'm just like, 'Damn, did I just start shooting 3s and I didn't know about it?'"

To Wade's elation, the data from SportVU cameras corroborated his story. He wasn't seeing things; defenses were really playing him that way.

What Wade was describing was the dynamic of a floor-spacer who spreads the defense thin, a characteristic almost exclusively held by 3-point sharpshooters. Ask an NBA coach to name the best floor-spacers in the league and chances are you'll hear names like Kyle Korver, Stephen Curry and Klay Thompson. You do not leave these guys on the perimeter and live to tell about it. In the domain of floor-spacing, shooters rule the day.

Wade, however, is the quirk in the system. The statisticians at STATS LLC have crunched the SportVU data to come up with two advanced metrics which they've called "gravity score" and "distraction score." By tracking how the defense shifts at every instance in the game, gravity score attempts to quantify how much defensive attention a player receives when he's off the ball. In other words, a player's gravitational pull on the opposing defense.

Distraction score takes this one step further and quantifies how much a player's defender is willing to help off him to stop the ball handler. If a lights-out shooter is standing in the corner, his defender will rarely leave him to stop a penetrating point guard. Coaches have noticed this, but SportVU quantifies it, through comprehensive optical tracking and innovative algorithms.

I wanted to examine which players performed strongly in both metrics so I could identify the NBA's true floor-spacers. So I blended the two metrics together to create a composite metric, which I've called "respect rating."

Now, this is where it gets interesting. Flipping through the leaders in respect rating is like glancing at a list of 3-point contest candidates. There's Kevin Durant. Predictably, Korver's name shows up high on the list. So do Curry and Thompson. Ray Allen. J.J. Redick. You name the sharpshooter ... he's there.

But oddly enough, so is Wade. He is the anomaly, the lone floor-spacer who ignores 3s altogether.

Image

As illustrated above, Wade converted 0.2 3-pointers every 36 minutes on the court last season, which is remarkably low for someone ranked in the top 25 of respect rating. On average, the other 24 players made far more trifectas than Wade, about 2.2 3s every 36 minutes. Wade was unique in this sense. In fact, no wing player with fewer than 0.5 3-pointers every 36 minutes even cracked the top 100 in respect rating. Tyreke Evans, Shaun Livingston and Tony Allen? All nowhere near the upper echelon.

But then there's Wade.

"I don't think anybody has ever called me that term -- a floor-spacer -- before," Wade says. "But honestly I've always known that I'm a floor-spacer, just in a different way."

So what makes Wade different? Why do defenses treat Wade like he's an elite 3-point shooter even though he's not?

"They're always up on me," Wade says. "I always wonder why."

The answer to this riddle is not simply that Wade scores a lot of points. It's how he gets his points that matters. More specifically, he's a deadly off-ball threat not because he's a 3-point shooter, but because he's a lethal cutter.

The mystery starts to reveal itself when you look at the Synergy numbers. Since losing the 2011 Finals, Wade says he has dedicated himself to cutting off the ball more for easy buckets. Not surprisingly, the data backs this up. According to Synergy's video tracking, Wade has accumulated 497 points on cuts off the ball, which is 100 more points than anyone else in the league over that time.

Image

What's clear is that Wade is indeed a floor-spacer, but he does it by cutting, not shooting.

And SportVU has detected that defenses are programming against it. Through their algorithms, SportVU has found that Wade pulls his defender away from the ball handler. Last season, Wade ranked 21st in the league in respect rating, which, interestingly enough, places him even higher than James. Part of the reason: James is not quite the same cutter off the ball as Wade.

I think once I became a dynamic cutter, then it became a part of the scouting report," Wade says. "If you turn your head and go help ... boom, I'm cutting backdoor."

On the practice floor, Wade put on an impromptu demonstration all by himself. He acted like a coach, moving around the perimeter and angling himself in different ways to demonstrate how defenses used to guard him compared to how they've guarded him more recently. Before he developed his off-ball cutting game, his defender used to shade off of him on the perimeter, sinking into the paint and keeping a close eye on the ball. "Now," Wade shouted as he slid from the paint to the 3-point arc, "they will guard me like this."

Wade's gravitational pull has gotten so impactful that he began to use it against his opposition.

"There have been a lot of times where I tell my teammates, 'Just drive on my side! They're not leaving me!'" Wade said, laughing.

Wade then backtracked a bit.

"Well, it's not like 'Ray Allen not leaving me,'" he says, "but it's my version of not leaving me."

Indeed, Allen placed higher than Wade in respect rating last season. Evidently, Wade's remarkable cutting abilities have not gone unnoticed. Heat.com writer Couper Moorhead has chronicled Wade's now-you-see-me-now-you-don't routine, dubbing it "ghost cuts." Last season, Wade scored 147 points on 97 plays ending in a cut, which translates to a ridiculously good payoff of 1.52 points per play. Only Dwight Howard was more efficient. By comparison, leaving Allen open for a catch-and-shoot play last season -- a defensive cardinal sin -- resulted in a 1.2-point average payoff. Wade's move was more deadly.

Wade stood in the corner and described how he works his magic. He preys on his defender as soon as he drifts away and loses focus.

"It's a feeling, but I'm watching my guy's eyes," Wade said. "I'm looking at the ball and where it's going, because sometimes my job is to run to the top of the key, but if I see he's out of position and he's just looking [toward the ball] ..."

Wade darted to the basket.

"... I'm gone."

But that was then, this is now. Can Wade be effective on cuts without James around anymore?

This is the elephant in the room. James is a passing virtuoso who can see above the defenses like he's observing from an air traffic control tower. Wade was always one pass away, and no player assisted Wade's field goals more than James last season.

It remains to be seen whether teams will be willing to pack the paint more when Wade is off the ball. Why respect his cutting game so much if James isn't around to deliver the pass? It turns out Wade would welcome the extra breathing room.

"That'd be great, fine by me," Wade says. "It'd give me a chance to get my 3 off."

Uh-oh. The career 29 percent 3-point shooter wants to shoot more 3s? Teams may be rooting for that counterpunch.

Wade has indeed taken more 3-pointers this preseason. He's shot 2.7 3-pointers every 36 minutes thus far in five games, which would be his highest rate since 2009-10. He made just 30 percent from deep that season.

"It's funny," he says, "because in the last couple games, I've hit a couple 3s and the guys who are guarding me have looked at me like, 'What?'"

The look typically comes from younger players who only know the James-era Wade.

"Y'all forgot that I did shoot 3s," Wade says. "Last three years I just haven't done it."

And that discipline worked in the Heat's favor. Oftentimes, there were better shots available thanks to James' presence. But now the exchange rate has been disrupted with James gone.

The Heat may have lost James' passing abilities, but they hope that free-agent signee Josh McRoberts can fill some of the void. McRoberts, who has missed the preseason with a toe injury, averaged 4.5 assists per game last season in Charlotte, which marks one of the highest rates in the league among big men. And much of those went to Gerald Henderson and Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, two players who like to cut off the ball, like Wade.

This introduces an interesting wrinkle for Wade's season, and really the rest of his NBA career. Will he need to start shooting 3-pointers to maintain his gravitational pull as he ages? Or has the attention derived from his cutting game made the 3-pointer irrelevant?

Nonetheless, get ready for more 3-pointers from Wade.

"I'm going to shoot 'em more," Wade says, which sounds a little like a warning than a prediction. "It is what it is."

You have our full attention, Dwyane. Let's see how long it lasts.


Source.

I think there are a couple of questions worth answering, which may not be completely obvious:

(1) Was early 90s MJ at the least same caliber of off-ball cutter as Wade (a stylistic historic similar of Jordan's in general) in terms of frequency and efficacy?

(2) If MJ's cutting ability is superior, would it be enough to catapault him from the Wade tier to Curry/Shaq territory (again, playing in the modern post-illegal defense era, where opposing defenses can react to a player's gravity without restriction)?


Do you have to be an insider to see the gravity stats?
All-Time Fantasy Draft Team (90 FGA)

PG: Maurice Cheeks / Giannis
SG: Reggie Miller / Jordan
SF: Michael Jordan / Bruce Bowen
PF: Giannis / Marvin Williams
C: Artis Gilmore / Chris Anderson
fpliii
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#232 » by fpliii » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:04 pm

micahclay wrote:
fpliii wrote:
Quotatious wrote:Jordan is IMO better than Shaq as an offensive force, because of his far superior range, shooting and ability to create for himself from any spot on the court, but I was talking about the "panic factor" or "gravity" or "defense distortion", if you will. I think 2000 Shaq and 2016 Curry had more of that, than any other player in NBA history. Teams tried to guard 1990-92 Jordan a different way than Shaq or Curry, they didn't collapse their defense as much on MJ, they allowed him to work 1 on 1 more than Shaq or Curry, basically they just wanted to concede 30-40 points to MJ and focus on limiting his teammates. Doesn't mean Jordan was a worse offensive player, just means that teams defended him a different way.

I think this is fair and is in part due to the rules of the time. The illegal defense regulations didn't allow a lot of doubling off ball (particular in and around the post), which really limits the gravity effect a player can have.

A few years ago when we first got the gravity ratings, a lot of the names were what you'd expect (lots of amazing shooters and then a few guys like Dirk), Wade (after adopting his off-ball cutting playstyle was featured high in such rankings:

Spoiler:
Dwyane Wade has been great at many things on the basketball court. But one skill has always escaped him: 3-point shooting.

This isn't breaking news to anyone who has followed his tenure in the NBA. Wade is a career 29 percent 3-point shooter, a sorry figure that places him 311th among the 315 players in NBA history who have shot at least 1,000 3-pointers.

But Wade has adjusted. Starting in the lockout-shortened 2011-12 season, Wade kicked the habit for the most part and generally expelled the 3-point shot from his regular jump-shooting diet. In 2013-14, Wade's propensity for shooting (and making) the 3 hit a career nadir; he took only 32 trifectas and made only nine during the entire regular season. Five years ago, he might have stumbled into making nine treys in a single week. Those days are long gone.

But here's the crazy thing about all that: Opposing defenses still glued themselves to Wade off the ball like he's the next Steve Kerr.

This isn't just a theory; there is quantifiable evidence of this phenomenon. According to data provided by STATS LLC from cutting-edge SportVU cameras that track the movement of the ball and every player last season, defenses stuck to Wade on the perimeter as if he were an elite 3-point shooter.

The question is, why?

During one of last week's practices, Wade was on the Miami Heat's practice court upstairs at AmericanAirlines Arena. The team has been struggling to find its identity in the wake of LeBron James' sudden departure this summer, and Wade had just wrapped up a long, arduous practice meticulously going over coach Erik Spoelstra's defensive principles. Wade and his teammates are tired, and the general mood feels grim after a string of hard losses.

But in this moment, Wade is laughing. He's giggling because for so long he thought he was going crazy, seeing something on the court that had to be a figment of his imagination. Opposing defenses just won't leave him alone off the ball. To him, this didn't make any sense. He's not a 3-point shooter.

"Lately, I've been seeing everybody start doing this more," Wade said as he turned his back pretending to be a defender gluing himself to a perimeter shooter. "And I'm just like, 'Damn, did I just start shooting 3s and I didn't know about it?'"

To Wade's elation, the data from SportVU cameras corroborated his story. He wasn't seeing things; defenses were really playing him that way.

What Wade was describing was the dynamic of a floor-spacer who spreads the defense thin, a characteristic almost exclusively held by 3-point sharpshooters. Ask an NBA coach to name the best floor-spacers in the league and chances are you'll hear names like Kyle Korver, Stephen Curry and Klay Thompson. You do not leave these guys on the perimeter and live to tell about it. In the domain of floor-spacing, shooters rule the day.

Wade, however, is the quirk in the system. The statisticians at STATS LLC have crunched the SportVU data to come up with two advanced metrics which they've called "gravity score" and "distraction score." By tracking how the defense shifts at every instance in the game, gravity score attempts to quantify how much defensive attention a player receives when he's off the ball. In other words, a player's gravitational pull on the opposing defense.

Distraction score takes this one step further and quantifies how much a player's defender is willing to help off him to stop the ball handler. If a lights-out shooter is standing in the corner, his defender will rarely leave him to stop a penetrating point guard. Coaches have noticed this, but SportVU quantifies it, through comprehensive optical tracking and innovative algorithms.

I wanted to examine which players performed strongly in both metrics so I could identify the NBA's true floor-spacers. So I blended the two metrics together to create a composite metric, which I've called "respect rating."

Now, this is where it gets interesting. Flipping through the leaders in respect rating is like glancing at a list of 3-point contest candidates. There's Kevin Durant. Predictably, Korver's name shows up high on the list. So do Curry and Thompson. Ray Allen. J.J. Redick. You name the sharpshooter ... he's there.

But oddly enough, so is Wade. He is the anomaly, the lone floor-spacer who ignores 3s altogether.

Image

As illustrated above, Wade converted 0.2 3-pointers every 36 minutes on the court last season, which is remarkably low for someone ranked in the top 25 of respect rating. On average, the other 24 players made far more trifectas than Wade, about 2.2 3s every 36 minutes. Wade was unique in this sense. In fact, no wing player with fewer than 0.5 3-pointers every 36 minutes even cracked the top 100 in respect rating. Tyreke Evans, Shaun Livingston and Tony Allen? All nowhere near the upper echelon.

But then there's Wade.

"I don't think anybody has ever called me that term -- a floor-spacer -- before," Wade says. "But honestly I've always known that I'm a floor-spacer, just in a different way."

So what makes Wade different? Why do defenses treat Wade like he's an elite 3-point shooter even though he's not?

"They're always up on me," Wade says. "I always wonder why."

The answer to this riddle is not simply that Wade scores a lot of points. It's how he gets his points that matters. More specifically, he's a deadly off-ball threat not because he's a 3-point shooter, but because he's a lethal cutter.

The mystery starts to reveal itself when you look at the Synergy numbers. Since losing the 2011 Finals, Wade says he has dedicated himself to cutting off the ball more for easy buckets. Not surprisingly, the data backs this up. According to Synergy's video tracking, Wade has accumulated 497 points on cuts off the ball, which is 100 more points than anyone else in the league over that time.

Image

What's clear is that Wade is indeed a floor-spacer, but he does it by cutting, not shooting.

And SportVU has detected that defenses are programming against it. Through their algorithms, SportVU has found that Wade pulls his defender away from the ball handler. Last season, Wade ranked 21st in the league in respect rating, which, interestingly enough, places him even higher than James. Part of the reason: James is not quite the same cutter off the ball as Wade.

I think once I became a dynamic cutter, then it became a part of the scouting report," Wade says. "If you turn your head and go help ... boom, I'm cutting backdoor."

On the practice floor, Wade put on an impromptu demonstration all by himself. He acted like a coach, moving around the perimeter and angling himself in different ways to demonstrate how defenses used to guard him compared to how they've guarded him more recently. Before he developed his off-ball cutting game, his defender used to shade off of him on the perimeter, sinking into the paint and keeping a close eye on the ball. "Now," Wade shouted as he slid from the paint to the 3-point arc, "they will guard me like this."

Wade's gravitational pull has gotten so impactful that he began to use it against his opposition.

"There have been a lot of times where I tell my teammates, 'Just drive on my side! They're not leaving me!'" Wade said, laughing.

Wade then backtracked a bit.

"Well, it's not like 'Ray Allen not leaving me,'" he says, "but it's my version of not leaving me."

Indeed, Allen placed higher than Wade in respect rating last season. Evidently, Wade's remarkable cutting abilities have not gone unnoticed. Heat.com writer Couper Moorhead has chronicled Wade's now-you-see-me-now-you-don't routine, dubbing it "ghost cuts." Last season, Wade scored 147 points on 97 plays ending in a cut, which translates to a ridiculously good payoff of 1.52 points per play. Only Dwight Howard was more efficient. By comparison, leaving Allen open for a catch-and-shoot play last season -- a defensive cardinal sin -- resulted in a 1.2-point average payoff. Wade's move was more deadly.

Wade stood in the corner and described how he works his magic. He preys on his defender as soon as he drifts away and loses focus.

"It's a feeling, but I'm watching my guy's eyes," Wade said. "I'm looking at the ball and where it's going, because sometimes my job is to run to the top of the key, but if I see he's out of position and he's just looking [toward the ball] ..."

Wade darted to the basket.

"... I'm gone."

But that was then, this is now. Can Wade be effective on cuts without James around anymore?

This is the elephant in the room. James is a passing virtuoso who can see above the defenses like he's observing from an air traffic control tower. Wade was always one pass away, and no player assisted Wade's field goals more than James last season.

It remains to be seen whether teams will be willing to pack the paint more when Wade is off the ball. Why respect his cutting game so much if James isn't around to deliver the pass? It turns out Wade would welcome the extra breathing room.

"That'd be great, fine by me," Wade says. "It'd give me a chance to get my 3 off."

Uh-oh. The career 29 percent 3-point shooter wants to shoot more 3s? Teams may be rooting for that counterpunch.

Wade has indeed taken more 3-pointers this preseason. He's shot 2.7 3-pointers every 36 minutes thus far in five games, which would be his highest rate since 2009-10. He made just 30 percent from deep that season.

"It's funny," he says, "because in the last couple games, I've hit a couple 3s and the guys who are guarding me have looked at me like, 'What?'"

The look typically comes from younger players who only know the James-era Wade.

"Y'all forgot that I did shoot 3s," Wade says. "Last three years I just haven't done it."

And that discipline worked in the Heat's favor. Oftentimes, there were better shots available thanks to James' presence. But now the exchange rate has been disrupted with James gone.

The Heat may have lost James' passing abilities, but they hope that free-agent signee Josh McRoberts can fill some of the void. McRoberts, who has missed the preseason with a toe injury, averaged 4.5 assists per game last season in Charlotte, which marks one of the highest rates in the league among big men. And much of those went to Gerald Henderson and Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, two players who like to cut off the ball, like Wade.

This introduces an interesting wrinkle for Wade's season, and really the rest of his NBA career. Will he need to start shooting 3-pointers to maintain his gravitational pull as he ages? Or has the attention derived from his cutting game made the 3-pointer irrelevant?

Nonetheless, get ready for more 3-pointers from Wade.

"I'm going to shoot 'em more," Wade says, which sounds a little like a warning than a prediction. "It is what it is."

You have our full attention, Dwyane. Let's see how long it lasts.


Source.

I think there are a couple of questions worth answering, which may not be completely obvious:

(1) Was early 90s MJ at the least same caliber of off-ball cutter as Wade (a stylistic historic similar of Jordan's in general) in terms of frequency and efficacy?

(2) If MJ's cutting ability is superior, would it be enough to catapault him from the Wade tier to Curry/Shaq territory (again, playing in the modern post-illegal defense era, where opposing defenses can react to a player's gravity without restriction)?


Do you have to be an insider to see the gravity stats?

There don't really seem to be any stats other than the picture I posted. I found this article too, from midway through 14-15:

Spoiler:
Top 10 most effective floor-spacers

Steph Curry leads the NBA in advanced metrics this season. AP Photo/Marcio Jose Sanchez
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Dec 30, 2014
Tom Haberstroh
ESPN Staff Writer
Stephen Curry is sitting on top of the NBA world these days.

The Splash Brother's squad has the best record in the NBA. Curry owns the top real plus-minus in the NBA. And now, in our first 2014-15 update on the respect rating, Curry remains the king of gravity.

Back in October, we took a close look at the concept of gravity and the players who have the most gravitational pull on the basketball court. What do we mean by gravity? Check out Kevin Pelton's helpful FAQ and a ranking of the NBA's top floor-spacers using STATS LLC's SportVU player-tracking data.

Looking at last season's data, Curry topped the list in my respect rating, which quantifies a player's gravitational pull by using SportVU's proprietary gravity score and distraction score -- two fancy STATS LLC metrics provided to ESPN Insider.

To recap, gravity score measures how closely a player's defender sticks to him off the ball. Higher gravity scores generally belong to bigs because their primary defender must stay close and also protect the basket. On the other hand, guards typically have lower gravity scores simply because defenders have more liberty to shade off their guy on the perimeter. But elite shooters typically generate more attention off the ball.

Then there's distraction score, which quantifies how much a player's defender is willing to help off the ball to stop the ball handler. The worse he is as a shooter, the more likely his defender will be distracted by the ball handler. To identify the most effective floor-spacers in the NBA, I created a composite score that combines the two metrics. The result is what I've called "respect rating," which has now been translated to a 1-to-100 scale with 100 being the most magnetic (think sharpshooters) and 1 being least magnetic (think non-scoring bigs).

And now, as we turn the calendar to 2015, we find that teams are still gluing themselves to Curry like no other. Who else has otherworldly floor-spacing ability? Here are the top 10 in respect rating for the 2014-15 season.

RoseCurry

1. Stephen Curry, Golden State Warriors | Respect rating: 97.9

Gravity score: 97.3 | Distraction score: 98.4
Last season rank: 1st


Glance at a team's scouting report on Curry and the headline probably reads something like, "DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT LEAVING THIS GUY OPEN OR YOU'LL GET CUT." His homing-missile jumper and lightning-quick release make defenses glue themselves to Curry when he's playing off the ball, which might explain why he's shooting a career-low 38.5 percent from downtown. Granted, that's still a strong conversion percentage, but the amazing thing is that he's shooting better on 3s off the dribble (40.7 percent) than off the pass (36.8 percent). Judging by how defenses guard him, no one has more respect than this guy.

RoseKorver

2. Kyle Korver, Atlanta Hawks | Respect rating: 96.0

Gravity score: 92.3 | Distraction score: 99.7
Last season rank: 2nd

Once again, Korver holds the most gravity in the NBA outside the "Wardell Stephen Curry III" division. Defenses key on Korver with good reason. For the second consecutive season, he leads the NBA in 3-point percentage with a ridiculous conversion rate of 51.5 percent. Standing at 6-foot-7, Korver enjoys a height advantage over his typical defender at the 2, which allows him to shoot a high percentage despite the defender's stickiness. Still, through the litany of off-ball screens, Korver still manages to break free every once in a while, and he's making defenses pay. Korver is shooting 53 percent on 3s when he's given at least five feet of room, according to SportVU data. Curry? Just 41.4 percent. An open Korver 3-pointer is basically a point-blank layup.

RoseThompson

3. Klay Thompson, Golden State Warriors | Respect rating: 94.4

Gravity score: 89.6 | Distraction score: 99.1
Last season rank: 8th

Nothing boosts a player's rep quite like a max contract. Thompson ranked eighth in respect rating last season, but he's jumped all the way to No. 3 in this edition after signing a contract extension worth about $70 million over the summer. Thompson is walking the walk with a scorching 3-point percentage of 43.1 percent. With two sharpshooters in the fold, it's fair to assume that the Warriors cause the most sleepless nights among NBA coaches. The attention paid to Thompson and Curry helps explain why Draymond Green, Harrison Barnes and Marreese Speights are enjoying career years in 2014-15.

RoseConley

4. Mike Conley, Memphis Grizzlies | Respect rating: 87.5

Gravity score: 79.3 | Distraction score: 95.7
Last season rank: 12th

Conley hasn't been named to an All-Star team yet, but that doesn't mean he lacks the respect of his peers. As one of the few Grizzlies boasting a reliable 3-point shot, defenses have keyed in on Conley off the ball more than they did last season. Nonetheless, Conley is shooting a career-high 41.7 percent from deep and leads the Grizzlies in 3-point makes. Defenses beware: Conley shoots "just" 33.3 percent on 3s off Marc Gasol's passes and 46 percent on passes from all others. For a guy who shot 30 percent from deep in college, Conley has blossomed into one of the NBA's most respected point guards.

RoseHayward

5. Gordon Hayward, Utah Jazz | Respect rating: 84.0

Gravity score: 72.1 | Distraction score: 95.9
Last season rank: 24th

Here is another example of the max contract bump. Hayward barely shot 30 percent from beyond the arc last season, but defenses aren't sleeping on him. Since re-upping with Utah for big bucks, Hayward has responded by shooting a solid 37.9 percent from deep and frequenting the free throw line more than ever. It's safe to say that Hayward's gravity is boosted by the fact that he often shares the court with two non-shooting bigs who occupy the paint (Derrick Favors and Enes Kanter) and two ball handlers who struggle to score in the paint (Alec Burks and Trey Burke). Defenders aren't being convinced they need to shade off of Hayward to stop the ball handler.

RoseHarden

6. James Harden, Houston Rockets | Respect rating: 83.3

Gravity score: 67.2 | Distraction score: 99.3
Last season rank: 5th

Harden got off to a rough start to the season. He shot just 27.4 percent from downtown over the first 11 games, but the Beard still carried a ton of magnetic pull off the ball, especially on his (lesser) teammate drives as evidenced by his 99.3 distraction score. Like Curry, Harden has been more deadly on pull-ups (35.4 percent shooting from deep) than as a spot-up weapon on catch-and-shoots (32.8 percent). After a slow start, Harden's 3-point shooting has picked up recently now that Patrick Beverley and Dwight Howard have returned to the lineup. But to the surprise of no one, Josh Smith has registered a below-average respect rating this season (48.2), so don't expect defenses to suddenly forget about Harden with the addition.

RoseSmith

7. J.R. Smith, New York Knicks | Respect rating: 83.0

Gravity score: 89.0 | Distraction score: 76.9
Last season rank: 118th

Small-sample-size theater? Might be. Smith barely made the 500-minute cut, having played just 528 minutes this season thanks to a nasty case of plantar fasciitis. Smith hasn't caught fire from deep this season, shooting just 32.4 percent from there, which may be a product of defenses paying more attention to him. Smith is the only perimeter player on the roster other than Carmelo Anthony who has a track record of creating his own shot, so this ranking may be a reflection of the Knicks' roster rather than Smith. Let's see if this holds as Smith labors through his worst season yet.

RoseCrawford

8. Jamal Crawford, Los Angeles Clippers | Respect rating: 81.6

Gravity score: 67.9 | Distraction score: 95.2
Last season rank: 14th

Crawford has uncharacteristically missed 16 of his 17 heaves beyond 28 feet, which means the fantasy 4-pointer crown is rightfully Damian Lillard's this season. Crawford has cracked the top 10 after finishing just outside that elite circle last season. Interestingly enough, Crawford is the only Clipper guard to rank in the top 50; Chris Paul (65.0 respect rating) and J.J. Redick (58.4) have both struggled to create space this season. Paul and Redick finished in the top 20 with Crawford last season, but neither has maintained that kind of gravity thus far. Perhaps Blake Griffin's emphasis on the perimeter has mucked up the Clippers' spacing.

RoseGinobili

9. Manu Ginobili, San Antonio Spurs | Respect rating: 81.4

Gravity score: 65.4 | Distraction score: 97.3
Last season: 7th

With Patty Mills and Tony Parker missing time this season, Ginobili has been the Spurs' gravity anchor. The 37-year-old has still got it. Now that Ray Allen is working on his golf swing, Ginobili represents the most senior member of the top 10. Ginobili has really struggled to finish at the rim this season, but his perimeter game remains strong. Even though Parker has shot lights-out from downtown (62.1 percent), defenses aren't fazed; Parker ranks 110th in respect rating. After getting drafted in 1999, Ginobili still keeps the defense on its toes.

RoseWade

10. Dwyane Wade, Miami Heat | Respect rating: 79.7

Gravity score: 82.2 | Distraction score: 77.1
Last season rank: 21st

The most fascinating name of all. I took a deep dive into Wade's curious gravitational before the season, noting that he was the only non-3-point shooter anywhere near the top of the list. And despite Wade playing without LeBron James' passing abilities, defenses have paid more attention to him off the ball than they did last season, which is a bit of a surprise. Playing without James and (often) Chris Bosh has made Wade even more important for opposing defenses, which makes his 51.2 percent shooting percentage that much more impressive. Wade has already eclipsed last season's made 3-pointer total (nine), but he's nowhere near as good of a 3-point shooter as the other names on this list. Defenses aren't sleeping on Wade and neither should you.


http://insider.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/12097042/steph-curry-leads-2014-15-respect-rating-ranks-nba

I have Insider so if you find a link I can share its contents, but I don't see the respect rankings anywhere in particular.

It seems Haberstroh (article of both pieces) used the SportsVU data to find those gravity or distraction scores. I am not sure where to find the data on either ESPN's site or elsewhere (maybe it's on the NBA's stat site?).
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#233 » by jaypo » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:54 pm

Colbinii wrote:
Gregoire wrote:
SactoKingsFan wrote:
Shaq clearly peaked in 2000 but he had other near peak seasons and Hakeem's extended peak was from 93-95. LeBron has 3-4 seasons that can be argued as his peak.

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Ok, Shaq has 2 such seasons - 00 and 01(PO), Hakeem - 2 (93,94), Lebron - 3(09,12,13), MJ... 5 (89,90,91,92,93(PO))

If you are going to use 93 postseason Jordan then you should include 2016 postseason James, no?

Sent from my SM-G920P using RealGM mobile app


Nah. Curry melted in the finals last year when the defense was allowed to actually play defense on him instead of him going to the line every time someone breathed on him. Imagine him having to play against the bad boy Pistons. He would be in the locker room crying by the end of the 1st quarter.
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#234 » by Colbinii » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:24 pm

jaypo wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
Gregoire wrote:
Ok, Shaq has 2 such seasons - 00 and 01(PO), Hakeem - 2 (93,94), Lebron - 3(09,12,13), MJ... 5 (89,90,91,92,93(PO))

If you are going to use 93 postseason Jordan then you should include 2016 postseason James, no?

Sent from my SM-G920P using RealGM mobile app


Nah. Curry melted in the finals last year when the defense was allowed to actually play defense on him instead of him going to the line every time someone breathed on him. Imagine him having to play against the bad boy Pistons. He would be in the locker room crying by the end of the 1st quarter.


Huh?

Let's just look at before LeBron took down one of the greatest teams ever.

14 Games, 12-2 record, +13 while ON the court, 25/8.5/7 on 60 TS%, only 3.1 TOV, 120 ORtg to 102 DRtg.

Now, you say that he would "be in the locker room crying against the Bad Boy Pistons?" Why is that? The Warriors have been a -4.1, -4.2, and -2.6 defense over the past 3 seasons, while the Back-to-Back Pistons were -3.1 and -4.6 defenses respectfully. I don't see a major difference between them.
tsherkin wrote:Locked due to absence of adult conversation.


penbeast0 wrote:Guys, if you don't have anything to say, don't post.


E-Balla wrote:LeBron is Jeff George.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#235 » by Gregoire » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:42 am

Quotatious wrote:Jordan is IMO better than Shaq as an offensive force, because of his far superior range, shooting and ability to create for himself from any spot on the court, but I was talking about the "panic factor" or "gravity" or "defense distortion", if you will. I think 2000 Shaq and 2016 Curry had more of that, than any other player in NBA history. Teams tried to guard 1990-92 Jordan a different way than Shaq or Curry, they didn't collapse their defense as much on MJ, they allowed him to work 1 on 1 more than Shaq or Curry, basically they just wanted to concede 30-40 points to MJ and focus on limiting his teammates. Doesn't mean Jordan was a worse offensive player, just means that teams defended him a different way.


I dont know, I think Jordan affected opposing defenses clearly more than Shaq (about Curry I dont exactly now). Maybe in classic double-teams Shaq had the edge, but if we took traps, triple-teams... Plus, on the route to each bucket Jordan forced to overcome more defenders than Shaq, so he createmore and broke the defense more.

As far as Hakeem... I dont confident enough that at his peak he was doubled less than Shaq? for example in 1993 Sonics series. (Kareem too BTW- just watch 1977 PO)
nate33 wrote:

Yeah, when ever I make all time comparisons, I pretty much ignore the pre-3PT-line era. The game was so different then. It's apples and oranges. Those guys may be better or may be worse, we're never really going to know.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#236 » by Gregoire » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:47 am

rebirthoftheM wrote:Solid points regarding MJ and Co. And with respect to Shaq v Curry... I feel like with Curry, the league was "amazed" with his dazzling play. He played the same with a lot of grace, and could get shots off from anywhere

Shaq meanwhile seriously angered and frustrated the entire league, in large part because opposing teams believed he was committing an offensive foul on half his possessions. It was bully ball at its finest, and Shaq was physically punishing teams consistently. So this is getting real subjective, but Shaq in 2000 took the wind out of teams like no other IMO, because he made teams feel helpless. Opposing teams thought that the rules in the NBA were allowing Shaq to get away with murder, and there was nothing they could do about it.


Actually I feel that a lot of people were "amazed" by Shaqs brute strenght, size, the way he scored,entertaining behavior and physical dominance, which lead to maybe overrate him a little. Maybe he seems to bemore dominant that he actually was.
nate33 wrote:

Yeah, when ever I make all time comparisons, I pretty much ignore the pre-3PT-line era. The game was so different then. It's apples and oranges. Those guys may be better or may be worse, we're never really going to know.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#237 » by GeneralManager » Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:14 am

LeBron took down one of the greatest teams ever.


No, he didn't.

This does not reflect truth. Please seek truth. We have evidence that refutes this.

LeBron played 4 games against the 73-9 team. LeBron was 1-3 against that team. (0.250 winning percentage).

2016 Warriors without Green and Bogut is not a 73-9 team.

Game 5: Can we please be honest? Green's suspension spotted the Cavs a game to extend the series. Altered history forever. It is a scandal.

Game 6 and 7: Bogut's rim protection was important. LeBron's freight train play with no rim protection? And also the ally-oops? Seriously?

Not a 73 win team. A 50 win team. LeBron beat a 50 win team in 2016.

I think it is important to be accurate when applying demanding standards for all-time lists.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#238 » by LakersLegacy » Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:10 am

Talent Chaser wrote:1a. 99-02 Shaq
1b. 90-93 Jordan
2a. 93-95 Hakeem
2b. LeBron 12-13

However, I'm not sure that Lebron's peak was 12-13. I think there is a real case for 09-10 as being his peak.

LeBron wasn't that nasty in terms of killer instinct back in '09-'10. He has grown a lot since then and since the loss in the '11 Finals. I almost would say his peak as a closer has been in 14-16. Even when the Cavs lost in '15 he was amazing. He did more than he did w the Heat. I know his stats were better before but he seems smarter and more dominant now. Maybe the eye test fooled me some. I didn't brush up on the stats before, but I watched the game tonight and he leads much better now.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#239 » by NO-KG-AI » Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:34 am

Is there any debate that Jordan could go off offensively at a level that the others just can't? Anyone can be stopped, but LeBron for instance has been slowed down or stopped in the post season way more frequently.

Doesn't Jordan have more 40 and 50 point games in the post season than the other 3 combined?


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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#240 » by jaypo » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:18 pm

Colbinii wrote:
jaypo wrote:
Colbinii wrote:If you are going to use 93 postseason Jordan then you should include 2016 postseason James, no?

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Nah. Curry melted in the finals last year when the defense was allowed to actually play defense on him instead of him going to the line every time someone breathed on him. Imagine him having to play against the bad boy Pistons. He would be in the locker room crying by the end of the 1st quarter.


Huh?

Let's just look at before LeBron took down one of the greatest teams ever.

14 Games, 12-2 record, +13 while ON the court, 25/8.5/7 on 60 TS%, only 3.1 TOV, 120 ORtg to 102 DRtg.

Now, you say that he would "be in the locker room crying against the Bad Boy Pistons?" Why is that? The Warriors have been a -4.1, -4.2, and -2.6 defense over the past 3 seasons, while the Back-to-Back Pistons were -3.1 and -4.6 defenses respectfully. I don't see a major difference between them.


Nope. The Bad Boy Pistons used to handle MJ. If Kyrie Irving was able to handle up on Curry as he did in the Finals, how do you think he would handle driving the lane and getting pummeled by Dennis Rodman, Rick Mahorn, and John Salley? That's assuming he can get past Isiah Thomas and Joe Dumars.

He proved last year that if you're physical with him, it throws him off. And there was no team more physical than the Bad Boys. I remember cringing every time MJ would drive the lane because I knew what was there waiting for him.

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