Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem

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Highest peak in last 25 years

Lebron 2012,2013,2009,2016 or 2017
62
20%
Jordan 1990, 1991,1992 or 1993
150
49%
Shaq 2000 or 2001
68
22%
Hakeem 1993,1994 or 1995
25
8%
 
Total votes: 305

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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#241 » by jaypo » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:20 pm

GeneralManager wrote:
LeBron took down one of the greatest teams ever.


No, he didn't.

This does not reflect truth. Please seek truth. We have evidence that refutes this.

LeBron played 4 games against the 73-9 team. LeBron was 1-3 against that team. (0.250 winning percentage).

2016 Warriors without Green and Bogut is not a 73-9 team.

Game 5: Can we please be honest? Green's suspension spotted the Cavs a game to extend the series. Altered history forever. It is a scandal.

Game 6 and 7: Bogut's rim protection was important. LeBron's freight train play with no rim protection? And also the ally-oops? Seriously?

Not a 73 win team. A 50 win team. LeBron beat a 50 win team in 2016.

I think it is important to be accurate when applying demanding standards for all-time lists.


Well, then, The Warriors have the same record against the "Real Cavs" because when they won their title, they weren't playing the Cavs with Love or Irving.

Imagine last year if Curry had to play against the Cavs without Thompson and Green. How do you think they would do? Hell, they had to play WITH Thompson and Green, and they lost in amazing fashion!!
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#242 » by jaypo » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:26 pm

Gregoire wrote:
rebirthoftheM wrote:Solid points regarding MJ and Co. And with respect to Shaq v Curry... I feel like with Curry, the league was "amazed" with his dazzling play. He played the same with a lot of grace, and could get shots off from anywhere

Shaq meanwhile seriously angered and frustrated the entire league, in large part because opposing teams believed he was committing an offensive foul on half his possessions. It was bully ball at its finest, and Shaq was physically punishing teams consistently. So this is getting real subjective, but Shaq in 2000 took the wind out of teams like no other IMO, because he made teams feel helpless. Opposing teams thought that the rules in the NBA were allowing Shaq to get away with murder, and there was nothing they could do about it.


Actually I feel that a lot of people were "amazed" by Shaqs brute strenght, size, the way he scored,entertaining behavior and physical dominance, which lead to maybe overrate him a little. Maybe he seems to bemore dominant that he actually was.


I assure you he was every bit as dominant as people say. Countless GM's and coaches used to say how they would have to change their entire game plans on both ends of the floor when playing against Shaq's teams.

About the "offensive foul" myth, I would counter with this analysis that I saw a while back. If you went by the letter of the rule, Shaq would never have taken a field goal. He would have been at the line every time he touched the ball. Before he ever shot, he would get fouled 3 and 4 times. Players were allowed to hit, grab, hold, him because he was so big and powerful, that it didn't affect him. (His college coach actually urged him to go pro because he feared for Shaq's health because of things like that). The other thing I would like to point out is that the moves Shaq did that you are saying were offensive fouls are the same moves that MJ, Barkley, and TD made a living at. As a matter of fact, I love to point out this series. It was Lakers VS. Spurs in the WCF. Shaq was backing in the defender (maybe DROB?). He dribbles and backs him down. The defender flops, Shaq makes the bucket. Offensive foul is called. ON THE NEXT PLAY, TD gets the ball in the post. DOES THE EXACT SAME THING. Horry is actually knocked down (he didn't flop), TD gets the bucket and a trip to the line. So you may say he got the benefit of the whistle, but I say he should have been at the line more. Or everyone else should have been called for the same thing, and they were not.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#243 » by Gregoire » Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:44 pm

BTW, currently I rank them:

1. Peak Jordan (91 PO) - 7,5 Offense + 2,25 Defense
2. Peak Lebron (2016 PO) - 7,0 Offense + 2,5 Defense
3. Peak Shaq (2001 PO) - 6,5 Offense + 2,75 Defense
4. Peak Hakeem (1993 PO) - 5,75 Offense + 3,25 Defense
nate33 wrote:

Yeah, when ever I make all time comparisons, I pretty much ignore the pre-3PT-line era. The game was so different then. It's apples and oranges. Those guys may be better or may be worse, we're never really going to know.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#244 » by Drylick » Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:32 am

No one has a better or greater impact on offense than peak Jordan. The way he just destroyed defenses and the way he just explodes on offense is quite unbelievable. He's a myth, because how he played back then was of mythical proportions.

It's not just that Jordan is in his peak, but he can still go over that peak when the games are close. No player on that list sniffs Jordan when it comes to closing 'close' games. Peak Jordan plays at level 100 and can still explode and go up another level or two, especially in the Playoffs. No one is stopping peak Jordan whatever you give him. No one. No team. Especially in the Playoffs. Shaq also in a way, but Jordan creates his own offense and plays an all-time great level defense. Sooooo there.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#245 » by 2klegend » Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:48 am

1. Jordan
2. Lebron
3. Shaq
4. Hakeem
My Top 100+ GOAT (Peak, Prime, Longevity, Award):
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1464952
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#246 » by mysticOscar » Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:03 pm

Jordan. RS, Playoffs, Finals dominance and championship.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#247 » by Gregoire » Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:36 am

Drylick wrote:No one has a better or greater impact on offense than peak Jordan. The way he just destroyed defenses and the way he just explodes on offense is quite unbelievable. He's a myth, because how he played back then was of mythical proportions.

It's not just that Jordan is in his peak,[b] he can still go over that peak when the games are close[/b]. No player on that list sniffs Jordan when it comes to closing 'close' games. Peak Jordan plays at level 100 and can still explode and go up another level or two, especially in the Playoffs. No one is stopping peak Jordan whatever you give him. No one. No team. Especially in the Playoffs. Shaq also in a way, but Jordan creates his own offense and plays an all-time great level defense. Sooooo there.


Exactly. Watching games you understand, that this "momentum" was almost always in Jordans hands, in most important moments he dominated.
nate33 wrote:

Yeah, when ever I make all time comparisons, I pretty much ignore the pre-3PT-line era. The game was so different then. It's apples and oranges. Those guys may be better or may be worse, we're never really going to know.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#248 » by Drylick » Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:36 am

Gregoire wrote:
Drylick wrote:No one has a better or greater impact on offense than peak Jordan. The way he just destroyed defenses and the way he just explodes on offense is quite unbelievable. He's a myth, because how he played back then was of mythical proportions.

It's not just that Jordan is in his peak,[b] he can still go over that peak when the games are close[/b]. No player on that list sniffs Jordan when it comes to closing 'close' games. Peak Jordan plays at level 100 and can still explode and go up another level or two, especially in the Playoffs. No one is stopping peak Jordan whatever you give him. No one. No team. Especially in the Playoffs. Shaq also in a way, but Jordan creates his own offense and plays an all-time great level defense. Sooooo there.


Exactly. Watching games you understand, that this "momentum" was almost always in Jordans hands, in most important moments he dominated.


There is just no stats comparable to how peak Jordan dominated games - especially close games. And people who have not seen him play, or might have seen him but hates him, tries to quantify that impact with statistics just so they could make an argument for their favorite players. The fact is that it's his skills, characteristics, and intangibles - especially in the Playoffs - that made him the greatest. Those unquantifiable aspects of the game - that still has not yet been surpassed by anyone up until today - made him the greatest. Irregardless of peak.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#249 » by NO-KG-AI » Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:31 am

Even if you look at it statistically, Jordan didn't have playoff and finals series where he struggled immensely. All you could hope for is his teammates to blow it, because he was going to score a ton of points, create a lot of openings, and be disruptive on D.

LeBron has those types of series. But he also has some stinkers, and some where he looks confused or passive on offense. His shooting also has the ability to just go dry on him and it really impacts his driving game.




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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#250 » by Gregoire » Fri May 12, 2017 5:34 am

bumb
nate33 wrote:

Yeah, when ever I make all time comparisons, I pretty much ignore the pre-3PT-line era. The game was so different then. It's apples and oranges. Those guys may be better or may be worse, we're never really going to know.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#251 » by Gregoire » Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:46 pm

Please, more discussion, especially:

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nate33 wrote:

Yeah, when ever I make all time comparisons, I pretty much ignore the pre-3PT-line era. The game was so different then. It's apples and oranges. Those guys may be better or may be worse, we're never really going to know.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#252 » by LivingLegend » Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:30 pm

MacGill wrote:
ardee wrote:1. Jordan
2. LeBron
3. Shaq
4. Hakeem

I think LeBron is clearly the second best offensive player of the bunch, I just think his defensive impact gets underrated in this discussion, leading to me ranking him above Shaq.


Look I get how close these peaks really are, we are not talking about gaps here. But are you really going to tell me that LBJ's offense was so much ahead of Shaq that it neglects peak Shaq's defensive peak + rebounding? Come on man!


Well you are also not factoring in LeBron in his peak was also the best point guard and passer in the NBA along with being a DPOY candidate with 4 position versatility.

2012/2013 LeBron

Pts- 27
Reb- 8
Ast- 7
Stl- 2
FG- 60%
3pt- 40%

NBA Champ
Finals MVP
League MVP
Scoring Title
DPOY (Everybody knows he should have been over Marc beeping Gasol)

That season from LeBron is better than any 2000s Shaq or 1990s season from MJ.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#253 » by Euroballer » Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:34 pm

1. Jordan
2. Shaq
3. Hakeem
4. Lebron
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#254 » by JordansBulls » Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:44 pm

LivingLegend wrote:
MacGill wrote:
ardee wrote:1. Jordan
2. LeBron
3. Shaq
4. Hakeem

I think LeBron is clearly the second best offensive player of the bunch, I just think his defensive impact gets underrated in this discussion, leading to me ranking him above Shaq.


Look I get how close these peaks really are, we are not talking about gaps here. But are you really going to tell me that LBJ's offense was so much ahead of Shaq that it neglects peak Shaq's defensive peak + rebounding? Come on man!


Well you are also not factoring in LeBron in his peak was also the best point guard and passer in the NBA along with being a DPOY candidate with 4 position versatility.

2012/2013 LeBron

Pts- 27
Reb- 8
Ast- 7
Stl- 2
FG- 60%
3pt- 40%

NBA Champ
Finals MVP
League MVP
Scoring Title
DPOY (Everybody knows he should have been over Marc beeping Gasol)

That season from LeBron is better than any 2000s Shaq or 1990s season from MJ.


When did Lebron win the scoring title?
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#255 » by rebirthoftheM » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:50 am

Gregoire wrote:Please, more discussion, especially:



On anote note... where would you rank 88-91 MJ in terms of ATG 4 year RS/PS runs? How does it compare to LBJ's best 4 non-consecutive runs of 09/10/12/13 (or 16/17 switching out from any of them)?
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#256 » by andrewww » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:44 am

IMO.. with the 4 available players listed here (doesnt mean theyre necessarily 1-4 with the actual entire player pool available to us historically)

1. Jordan
2. Hakeem
3. Shaq/Lebron

Jordan rarely had series where you could say he could have done more. And as I've said before, he doesn't have a noticeable weakness to exploit unlike Shaq or Lebron.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#257 » by RCM88x » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:03 am

1a/b. Jordan/Lebron
3. Shaq
4. Hakeem

I don't really think Hakeem belongs in this discussion at all. He's in the 2nd tier of peaks with Bird and Duncan in the 6-10 range.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#258 » by Gregoire » Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:22 am

rebirthoftheM wrote:
Gregoire wrote:Please, more discussion, especially:



On anote note... where would you rank 88-91 MJ in terms of ATG 4 year RS/PS runs? How does it compare to LBJ's best 4 non-consecutive runs of 09/10/12/13 (or 16/17 switching out from any of them)?


IMO his best 4-year streak in 89-93 and I rank it 1st all-time in terms of RS and PS. Lebrons 09-13 streak (his beat IMO) for me is close second all-time.
BTW, how do you rank these four players in terms of PS/RS peaks (one year peak or maybe absolute apex of their possible ability)?
nate33 wrote:

Yeah, when ever I make all time comparisons, I pretty much ignore the pre-3PT-line era. The game was so different then. It's apples and oranges. Those guys may be better or may be worse, we're never really going to know.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#259 » by Morb » Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:03 am

1) Lebron '09
2) Shaq '00
3) Olajuwon '94
4) Jordan '90
PG Lebron '09, SG Vince '01, SF T-Mac '03, PF Wilt '62, C Shaq '03.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#260 » by DidUSaySometing » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:44 pm

Gregoire wrote:Four best peaks from last 25 years.
Which player of the four was more impactful and better player in your opinion at their respective peaks? Which player influence for outcomes of your games the most?
Saying Jordan 1990,91 or 92 ( you can choose yourself), Hakeem 1994 or 1993, Shaqs 2000 season and Lebrons 2012 or 2013 seasons... Which player do you take for imaginary new PO after PO in the season (then its clear how they performed at biggest stages) for win with random team after you know how they played in the RS and PO? So, its more “peak in a vacuum” question.
Or maybe you suggest some other criteria to rank their peak season value? Anyway, rank them from 1 to 4 in order.
Some more thoughts. Each player have some advantages and disadvantages. Obviously for first look its offense and clutch for wings (Jordan and Lebron) and defense for bigs (Shaq, Hakeem). But its not so easy… I consider each of these wings defensive anchors too and both bigs were offensive focal points too for opposing defenses.
So, I try to list each players “+” and “-“.

Lebron 2013.
Positives:
- Best playmaker of the four, very intelligent, good floor spacing
- Best passer and most willing one
- Most versatile defender
- Best in transition offense ( maybe Jordan is close), best transition defender, great finishing at the rim
- Most “team” player of the four, became not ball-dominant
- Most versatile overall offensive player
- Along with Jordan best stamina and durability
Negatives:
- His jumper and overall scoring tend to be worse under pressure
- Questionable mentality of alpha-dog
- Least dominant scorer of the four
- FT % for wing player is not so good
- Post play can be better (but its not weakness even now)

Hakeem 1993 or 94
Positives:
- Best defensive impact of the four with big margin, overall most active defender
- Best at splitting doubles (along with Jordan)
- Better playmaker from the center position than Shaq, great IQ
- Excellent transition O and D from the center
- Great motor
- Huge intangibles and unfearness, will to win, but without nerves
- One of the most versatiles centers ever, great footwork, face-up game, jumper
Negatives:
- If we talk about 94 – not so good rebounder
- Sometimes TO prone
- Not big frame for a center, so can be exploited with big fellas matchups (like Shaq ect)
- Not very good FG% for a center, not so efficient

Shaq 2000.
Positives:
- Biggest mismatch 1-on -1 of the four (in the post), huge physical presence
- Very efficient scorer (most efficient from the field of the our) and good passer with less TO than Hakeem
- Draw most doubles of the four, create a lot of opportunities with it for teammates
- Great offensive rebounder
- Great intimidator as a defender in the lane and big body to protect the paint
- Very good man defender in the post
Negatives:
- Obviously FT% (awful percentage) and because of it clutch factor and issues, hack-a-shaq factor sometimes
- PnR defense and mobility in defense overall (even without health and laziness issues), can be exploded in some matchups, clear worst defender than Hakeem. Questionable about Lebron
- Questionable stamina , motor and durability
- Very predictable and have very small range, so very easy to double and triple, dependence of good passing
- Intangibles and mentality in some sense were issue

Jordan 1990-92
Positives:
- Overall best offensive player of the four
- Best volume scorer and most efficient (TS) one , so best scorer overall, most versatile scorer
- Biggest mismatch for the team, so best creator for himself and teammates because of his uncanny ability to split doubles, triples and to overplay 2,3,4 defenders in one play.
- Great passer and playmaker (worse than Lebron), least TO prone of the four (!!)
- Great transition player (along with Lebron)
- Very good off-ball player and shooter, so create the spacing
- Very good help defender and versatile one, best man defender of the four
- Great stamina, health and durability
- Obviously intangibles, sense of the moment, wll to win, motor, mentality and huge clutch factor (best of the four and maybe the best ever)
Negatives:
- His size didn’t allow him to impact the game in defense even more, but even with 6,6 ft its questionable about his D impact vs Lebron vs Shaq
- 3pt shoot not great like with Kobe, Carter ect, probably worse 3pt shooter than Lebron.
- Sometimes “overmantality” and taking the game personal with issues.
- Tend to be ball-dominant and not trusting teammates


Maybe I overlooked something, back-up your opinion please than post for good discussion.


easily shaq. makes the biggest impact and was the most dominant player since wilt. peak duncan is better than lebron and especially jordan

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