Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem

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Highest peak in last 25 years

Lebron 2012,2013,2009,2016 or 2017
62
20%
Jordan 1990, 1991,1992 or 1993
150
49%
Shaq 2000 or 2001
68
22%
Hakeem 1993,1994 or 1995
25
8%
 
Total votes: 305

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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#261 » by DidUSaySometing » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:48 pm

RCM88x wrote:1a/b. Jordan/Lebron
3. Shaq
4. Hakeem

I don't really think Hakeem belongs in this discussion at all. He's in the 2nd tier of peaks with Bird and Duncan in the 6-10 range.


peak duncan is better than both lebron and jordan. defensive anchor, great rebounder, and dominant offensive player
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#262 » by jaypo » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:53 pm

DidUSaySometing wrote:
RCM88x wrote:1a/b. Jordan/Lebron
3. Shaq
4. Hakeem

I don't really think Hakeem belongs in this discussion at all. He's in the 2nd tier of peaks with Bird and Duncan in the 6-10 range.


peak duncan is better than both lebron and jordan. defensive anchor, great rebounder, and dominant offensive player


I have to disagree here. Defensive anchor and rebounder, I'll give you that. But I just never considered him dominant on the offensive end. He scored points, but he was never one that I feared when the Lakers played him. Mainly because every PF in the West had the same results against the Lakers. I actually feared Sheed and KG more. TD also had the benefit of playing alongside a great C for the early part of his career.

Defense and rebounding- yes, he was great. He was good offensively, but when I think "dominant", I think MJ, Lebron, Wilt, and Shaq.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#263 » by Jboogz23 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:17 pm

Crazy that Lebron literally has 5 peak years. 6 if you include 2014.

1a. Jordan 91 (7th season)
1b. Lebron 16 (13th season)
3. Shaq 01 (9th season)
4. Duncan 03 (6th season)
5. Hakeem 94 (10th season)
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#264 » by DidUSaySometing » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:38 pm

jaypo wrote:
DidUSaySometing wrote:
RCM88x wrote:1a/b. Jordan/Lebron
3. Shaq
4. Hakeem

I don't really think Hakeem belongs in this discussion at all. He's in the 2nd tier of peaks with Bird and Duncan in the 6-10 range.


peak duncan is better than both lebron and jordan. defensive anchor, great rebounder, and dominant offensive player


I have to disagree here. Defensive anchor and rebounder, I'll give you that. But I just never considered him dominant on the offensive end. He scored points, but he was never one that I feared when the Lakers played him. Mainly because every PF in the West had the same results against the Lakers. I actually feared Sheed and KG more. TD also had the benefit of playing alongside a great C for the early part of his career.

Defense and rebounding- yes, he was great. He was good offensively, but when I think "dominant", I think MJ, Lebron, Wilt, and Shaq.


he was a dominant offensive player in the early 00s. he was great scorer and passer in the post, and a good mid range shooter. if i'm building a team i'll definitely pick him over lebron and jordan because he makes a bigger impact
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#265 » by FuShengTHEGreat » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:46 pm

jaypo wrote:
DidUSaySometing wrote:
RCM88x wrote:1a/b. Jordan/Lebron
3. Shaq
4. Hakeem

I don't really think Hakeem belongs in this discussion at all. He's in the 2nd tier of peaks with Bird and Duncan in the 6-10 range.


peak duncan is better than both lebron and jordan. defensive anchor, great rebounder, and dominant offensive player


I have to disagree here. Defensive anchor and rebounder, I'll give you that. But I just never considered him dominant on the offensive end. He scored points, but he was never one that I feared when the Lakers played him. Mainly because every PF in the West had the same results against the Lakers. I actually feared Sheed and KG more. TD also had the benefit of playing alongside a great C for the early part of his career.

Defense and rebounding- yes, he was great. He was good offensively, but when I think "dominant", I think MJ, Lebron, Wilt, and Shaq.


I find it laughable you'd be so dismissive of TDs given he ran roughshod over Shaq's Lakers en route to a title in only his 2nd year (oh but Shaq was a "baby" in 95 Finals with more NBA experience lol) and ended their 3peat thoroughly outscoring Shaq in both series.

Luckily for LA he got injured in '00.
druggas wrote:You know, Shaq coined the phrase MDE not us. So when I hear anyone use it, I know that ESPN has brainwashed them.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#266 » by DidUSaySometing » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:47 pm

Jboogz23 wrote:Crazy that Lebron literally has 5 peak years. 6 if you include 2014.

1a. Jordan 91 (7th season)
1b. Lebron 16 (13th season)
3. Shaq 01 (9th season)
4. Duncan 03 (6th season)
5. Hakeem 94 (10th season)


jordan and lebron aren't great enough offensively to be ranked above of shaq and duncan who are at least an A- on rebounding, scoring, and defense
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#267 » by jaypo » Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:17 pm

FuShengTHEGreat wrote:
jaypo wrote:
DidUSaySometing wrote:
peak duncan is better than both lebron and jordan. defensive anchor, great rebounder, and dominant offensive player


I have to disagree here. Defensive anchor and rebounder, I'll give you that. But I just never considered him dominant on the offensive end. He scored points, but he was never one that I feared when the Lakers played him. Mainly because every PF in the West had the same results against the Lakers. I actually feared Sheed and KG more. TD also had the benefit of playing alongside a great C for the early part of his career.

Defense and rebounding- yes, he was great. He was good offensively, but when I think "dominant", I think MJ, Lebron, Wilt, and Shaq.


I find it laughable you'd be so dismissive of TDs given he ran roughshod over Shaq's Lakers en route to a title in only his 2nd year (oh but Shaq was a "baby" in 95 Finals with more NBA experience lol) and ended their 3peat thoroughly outscoring Shaq in both series.

Luckily for LA he got injured in '00.


Man, I'm going to have to do some digging and find out what Shaq did to you to make you hate him so much. That much hate is not healthy. I have 3 theories:

1.) You're a relative of Akeem, and the jealousy you have is a result of your kin not being higher on the GOAT list than Shaq.
2.) You're a Sacramento Kings fan, and you're still stinging from 2002.
3. You're Kobe.

Either way, I focus more on the 3 peat thru the Western Conference that Shaq's Lakers accomplished AND the fact that he eliminated the Spurs more times than they eliminated the Lakers. And the fact that TD couldn't even REpeat, let alone, 3 peat. Oh, and once again, TD played PF and Shaq played C. TD couldn't cover Shaq, so Pop had to throw every stiff he could find in there to grab, hold, scratch, foul Shaq so he didn't average 40 against them. (Shaq didn't come into the league in his 2nd year with a top 25 player at his side in his prime, either)

You really should try Yoga. Or Muay Thai. Or target shooting. Something to let the anger flow!! It's not healthy to hate someone so much just because he was light years ahead of your favorite player. Then again, maybe not target shooting!
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#268 » by FuShengTHEGreat » Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:55 pm

jaypo wrote:Man, I'm going to have to do some digging and find out what Shaq did to you to make you hate him so much. That much hate is not healthy. I have 3 theories:

1.) You're a relative of Akeem, and the jealousy you have is a result of your kin not being higher on the GOAT list than Shaq.
2.) You're a Sacramento Kings fan, and you're still stinging from 2002.
3. You're Kobe.

Either way, I focus more on the 3 peat thru the Western Conference that Shaq's Lakers accomplished AND the fact that he eliminated the Spurs more times than they eliminated the Lakers. And the fact that TD couldn't even REpeat, let alone, 3 peat. Oh, and once again, TD played PF and Shaq played C. TD couldn't cover Shaq, so Pop had to throw every stiff he could find in there to grab, hold, scratch, foul Shaq so he didn't average 40 against them. (Shaq didn't come into the league in his 2nd year with a top 25 player at his side in his prime, either)

You really should try Yoga. Or Muay Thai. Or target shooting. Something to let the anger flow!! It's not healthy to hate someone so much just because he was light years ahead of your favorite player. Then again, maybe not target shooting!


:lol: Yeah I like the "HE" eliminated the Spurs narrative.

Notice in 2001 TDs supporting cast played FAR worse than what you're crying about Shaq having alongside him in 95 and suddenly this isnt even a thought. of course this is swept under the rug. DRob in 2002 barely played and TD still outperformed Shaq. So much for having a "top 25 player" in SA. Heck in 2003 TD didn't even have a top.....50 player teammate and he still outperformed Shaq. ......again and this time sent LA packing.

Speaking of which....why'd I be mad and have hate towards Shaq for? He was the easiest superstar my favorite player ever faced in his playoff career to win against. I've no bad memories whatsoever of him. Maybe if I supported all those cream puffs he 3peated against then for sure there be hate. Shaq is indeed a top 5 C ever although I have Kareem and Hakeem ahead of him.

The last play of my favorite players' peak was launching a 3 in his eye to ice off a title.

The happiest moment and pinnacle of Hakeems career was ironically the saddest most painful of Shaq's professional playoff career. Fitting,lol.
druggas wrote:You know, Shaq coined the phrase MDE not us. So when I hear anyone use it, I know that ESPN has brainwashed them.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#269 » by rebirthoftheM » Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:10 am

Gregoire wrote:
rebirthoftheM wrote:
Gregoire wrote:Please, more discussion, especially:



On anote note... where would you rank 88-91 MJ in terms of ATG 4 year RS/PS runs? How does it compare to LBJ's best 4 non-consecutive runs of 09/10/12/13 (or 16/17 switching out from any of them)?


IMO his best 4-year streak in 89-93 and I rank it 1st all-time in terms of RS and PS. Lebrons 09-13 streak (his beat IMO) for me is close second all-time.
BTW, how do you rank these four players in terms of PS/RS peaks (one year peak or maybe absolute apex of their possible ability)?


Why so low on 88 and 89 MJ?

And at their absolute peaks (and I go back and forth on this), I have 00 Shaq as #1 (and i must confess- there might be a tinge of nostalgia with this one) and Hakeem as #4. 01 PS Shaq also IMO has a case against anyone here, as was thunderously dominant,not only because was he no less inferior than the other dudes on O (and IMO better than Hakeem) but he anchored a sick defense. I think I'd take any 90 or 91 MJ over any version of LBJ too. MJ had less holes in his games that could be exploited and I find that to be a major advantage in his case v Lebron.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#270 » by Pg81 » Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:05 am

I wonder why some posters here are so dismissive of Hakeem. Out of those 4, he is the best defender and was certainly no slouch on offense either. I even dare to say that he was skill wise as good for a C as MJ was for a SG.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#271 » by LakerLegend » Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:11 am

Pg81 wrote:I wonder why some posters here are so dismissive of Hakeem. Out of those 4, he is the best defender and was certainly no slouch on offense either. I even dare to say that he was skill wise as good for a C as MJ was for a SG.
Probably young guys who can't believe he was actually that good because he wasn't a huge star off the court.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#272 » by NormanDale » Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:36 am

Lakerfan17 wrote:
Pg81 wrote:I wonder why some posters here are so dismissive of Hakeem. Out of those 4, he is the best defender and was certainly no slouch on offense either. I even dare to say that he was skill wise as good for a C as MJ was for a SG.
Probably young guys who can't believe he was actually that good because he wasn't a huge star off the court.


Or because this thread has some pretty damn stiff competition. I love Hakeem and definitely feel he deserves his place in this conversation, but I'd still have him 4th. My list is 1) MJ 2) Shaq 3) LeBron 4) Hakeem.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#273 » by pandrade83 » Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:57 am

Shaq vs. Duncan playoffs excl. 08:

Shaq - 24/13/3/3.4 blk+steal on 55% TS and 3 TO per game. 14 wins
Duncan - 26/13/4/3.3 blk + steal on 55% TS and 4 TO per game. 11 wins

Just food for thought for the above Shaq vs. Duncan narrative.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#274 » by jaypo » Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:15 pm

FuShengTHEGreat wrote:
jaypo wrote:Man, I'm going to have to do some digging and find out what Shaq did to you to make you hate him so much. That much hate is not healthy. I have 3 theories:

1.) You're a relative of Akeem, and the jealousy you have is a result of your kin not being higher on the GOAT list than Shaq.
2.) You're a Sacramento Kings fan, and you're still stinging from 2002.
3. You're Kobe.

Either way, I focus more on the 3 peat thru the Western Conference that Shaq's Lakers accomplished AND the fact that he eliminated the Spurs more times than they eliminated the Lakers. And the fact that TD couldn't even REpeat, let alone, 3 peat. Oh, and once again, TD played PF and Shaq played C. TD couldn't cover Shaq, so Pop had to throw every stiff he could find in there to grab, hold, scratch, foul Shaq so he didn't average 40 against them. (Shaq didn't come into the league in his 2nd year with a top 25 player at his side in his prime, either)

You really should try Yoga. Or Muay Thai. Or target shooting. Something to let the anger flow!! It's not healthy to hate someone so much just because he was light years ahead of your favorite player. Then again, maybe not target shooting!


:lol: Yeah I like the "HE" eliminated the Spurs narrative.

Notice in 2001 TDs supporting cast played FAR worse than what you're crying about Shaq having alongside him in 95 and suddenly this isnt even a thought. of course this is swept under the rug. DRob in 2002 barely played and TD still outperformed Shaq.
So much for having a "top 25 player" in SA. Heck in 2003 TD didn't even have a top.....50 player teammate and he still outperformed Shaq. ......again and this time sent LA packing.

Speaking of which....why'd I be mad and have hate towards Shaq for? He was the easiest superstar my favorite player ever faced in his playoff career to win against. I've no bad memories whatsoever of him. Maybe if I supported all those cream puffs he 3peated against then for sure there be hate. Shaq is indeed a top 5 C ever although I have Kareem and Hakeem ahead of him.

The last play of my favorite players' peak was launching a 3 in his eye to ice off a title.

The happiest moment and pinnacle of Hakeems career was ironically the saddest most painful of Shaq's professional playoff career. Fitting,lol.


The bold above is the exact hypocrisy that I'm talking about. You laugh when I say that Shaq eliminated the Spurs (not the Lakers), and in the same sentence you say TD outperformed Shaq. THEY DIDN'T PLAY EACH OTHER!!! To give you a basketball lesson, Shaq was a CENTER and Duncan was a POWER FORWARD.

I love when you get all teary eyed. It actually makes me chuckle! Because the harder you try to tear down Shaq, the more ridiculous it makes you look! You think Shaq was Akeem's easiest opponent? The same Shaq that had more blocks, assists, rebounds, and shot almost 60% against him? I think DRob has a little something to say about that! Yes, Akeem shot a 3 over Shaq, and his TEAM won a title against Shaq's TEAM. His 2nd. And last. And yes, Shaq was sad at that point. But Shaq went on to win 4 titles, including 3 in a row. A feat few others, and NOT AKEEM, could achieve. He went on to score more points. More playoff points. A higher career FG% and PER. He had his jersey retired and is now in the HOF. He has a statue at the Staples Center alongside some of the GOATS in the game. I'm pretty sure that made up for all the sad "feels" he had in 1995.

And when he looks at his trophy case, which has a lot more hardware in it than Akeem's (twice as many Obrien trophies!!), I'm sure your opinions of him based on his status above Akeem on the GOAT list don't really mean too much!
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#275 » by jaypo » Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:35 pm

pandrade83 wrote:Shaq vs. Duncan playoffs excl. 08:

Shaq - 24/13/3/3.4 blk+steal on 55% TS and 3 TO per game. 14 wins
Duncan - 26/13/4/3.3 blk + steal on 55% TS and 4 TO per game. 11 wins

Just food for thought for the above Shaq vs. Duncan narrative.


I might add the fact that the Spurs were built to limit tough post play whereas the Lakers were abused by any PF with skill (Sheed, KG, Webber)
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#276 » by FuShengTHEGreat » Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:41 pm

jaypo wrote:The bold above is the exact hypocrisy that I'm talking about. You laugh when I say that Shaq eliminated the Spurs (not the Lakers), and in the same sentence you say TD outperformed Shaq. THEY DIDN'T PLAY EACH OTHER!!! To give you a basketball lesson, Shaq was a CENTER and Duncan was a POWER FORWARD.

I love when you get all teary eyed. It actually makes me chuckle! Because the harder you try to tear down Shaq, the more ridiculous it makes you look! You think Shaq was Akeem's easiest opponent? The same Shaq that had more blocks, assists, rebounds, and shot almost 60% against him? I think DRob has a little something to say about that! Yes, Akeem shot a 3 over Shaq, and his TEAM won a title against Shaq's TEAM. His 2nd. And last. And yes, Shaq was sad at that point. But Shaq went on to win 4 titles, including 3 in a row. A feat few others, and NOT AKEEM, could achieve. He went on to score more points. More playoff points. A higher career FG% and PER. He had his jersey retired and is now in the HOF. He has a statue at the Staples Center alongside some of the GOATS in the game. I'm pretty sure that made up for all the sad "feels" he had in 1995.

And when he looks at his trophy case, which has a lot more hardware in it than Akeem's (twice as many Obrien trophies!!), I'm sure your opinions of him based on his status above Akeem on the GOAT list don't really mean too much!


Scoffs. I don't care about who was a PF and who was a C all I know TD was the only player in the NBA during Shaq's peak capable of rebounding and scoring, shotblocking just as good as he could in a playoff series that could eat away at his dominance and you know it. No GOAT level series by Shaq to be seen of course when Tim was there. Even when DRob was barely a factor un 02 Shaq was still following Kobe's lead.

He knew how to pile on the stats facing creampuff frontcourts in 3 consecutive Finals. He surely didnt have to face anybody of the calibre of the 67-15 1986 Celtics like Hakeem in his 2nd year did. But hey at least Hakeem's team in his 1st Finals appearance actually won games lol. So that "rings total" thing means nothing to me, especially given Hakeem went right through Shaq himself for one of his rings.

The same way I feel about the Utah Jazz Hakeem had to go through in the 95 playoffs where Karl Malone put up a 30/13 series and unfortunately his team lost in the 1st rd as Hakeem was a bit better offensively than him and Clyde stepped up huge.

Of course..... Karl Malone was Shaq's playoff daddy but that's another story lol.

The only crying I see is done by you trying to conjure up whatever statistical figures and pointing fingers at various teammates to save face for your hero getting abused when facing defeat vs the biggest opponent of his career. You're forever going to fail to rewrite history my friend.

The only time is Shaq's professional career he was reduced to crying on camera. Shaq was the teary eyed one lol. "I'll be a man and admit it Hakeem dusted my butt! "

2 teammates that won titles with peak Shaq don't even consider him the best C they've played with or against.....and none of them are Kobe Bryant. I won't hold by breath waiting for any of Hakeems ex teammates to rate Shaq on a higher GOAT plateau,lol.
druggas wrote:You know, Shaq coined the phrase MDE not us. So when I hear anyone use it, I know that ESPN has brainwashed them.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#277 » by pandrade83 » Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:49 pm

jaypo wrote:
pandrade83 wrote:Shaq vs. Duncan playoffs excl. 08:

Shaq - 24/13/3/3.4 blk+steal on 55% TS and 3 TO per game. 14 wins
Duncan - 26/13/4/3.3 blk + steal on 55% TS and 4 TO per game. 11 wins

Just food for thought for the above Shaq vs. Duncan narrative.


I might add the fact that the Spurs were built to limit tough post play whereas the Lakers were abused by any PF with skill (Sheed, KG, Webber)


Definitely true.

2000: Webber goes off for 25-10-5 in round 1, then Sheed gets 23 a game on 59%! TS
2001: They keep Sheed in check this time (17/8) but Webber gets 27-13-4 and Duncan is the only Spur who functions against LA
2002: SHeed gets 25-12, Duncan gets 29 & 17 - generally outplaying Shaq by a wide margin, Webber gets 25-11-6 then even Kenyon Martin 22 per game.

That's title years and a lot of those series were blow-outs and the guys were still getting off.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#278 » by jaypo » Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:07 pm

FuShengTHEGreat wrote:
jaypo wrote:The bold above is the exact hypocrisy that I'm talking about. You laugh when I say that Shaq eliminated the Spurs (not the Lakers), and in the same sentence you say TD outperformed Shaq. THEY DIDN'T PLAY EACH OTHER!!! To give you a basketball lesson, Shaq was a CENTER and Duncan was a POWER FORWARD.

I love when you get all teary eyed. It actually makes me chuckle! Because the harder you try to tear down Shaq, the more ridiculous it makes you look! You think Shaq was Akeem's easiest opponent? The same Shaq that had more blocks, assists, rebounds, and shot almost 60% against him? I think DRob has a little something to say about that! Yes, Akeem shot a 3 over Shaq, and his TEAM won a title against Shaq's TEAM. His 2nd. And last. And yes, Shaq was sad at that point. But Shaq went on to win 4 titles, including 3 in a row. A feat few others, and NOT AKEEM, could achieve. He went on to score more points. More playoff points. A higher career FG% and PER. He had his jersey retired and is now in the HOF. He has a statue at the Staples Center alongside some of the GOATS in the game. I'm pretty sure that made up for all the sad "feels" he had in 1995.

And when he looks at his trophy case, which has a lot more hardware in it than Akeem's (twice as many Obrien trophies!!), I'm sure your opinions of him based on his status above Akeem on the GOAT list don't really mean too much!


Scoffs. I don't care about who was a PF and who was a C all I know TD was the only player in the NBA during Shaq's peak capable of rebounding and scoring, shotblocking just as good as he could in a playoff series that could eat away at his dominance and you know it. No GOAT level series by Shaq to be seen of course when Tim was there. Even when DRob was barely a factor un 02 Shaq was still following Kobe's lead.

He knew how to pile on the stats facing creampuff frontcourts in 3 consecutive Finals. He surely didnt have to face anybody of the calibre of the 67-15 1986 Celtics like Hakeem in his 2nd year did. But hey at least Hakeem's team in his 1st Finals appearance actually won games lol. So that "rings total" thing means nothing to me, especially given Hakeem went right through Shaq himself for one of his rings.

The same way I feel about the Utah Jazz Hakeem had to go through in the 95 playoffs where Karl Malone put up a 30/13 series and unfortunately his team lost in the 1st rd as Hakeem was a bit better offensively than him and Clyde stepped up huge.

Of course..... Karl Malone was Shaq's playoff daddy but that's another story lol.

The only crying I see is done by you trying to conjure up whatever statistical figures and pointing fingers at various teammates to save face for your hero getting abused when facing defeat vs the biggest opponent of his career. You're forever going to fail to rewrite history my friend.

The only time is Shaq's professional career he was reduced to crying on camera. Shaq was the teary eyed one lol. "I'll be a man and admit it Hakeem dusted my butt! "

2 teammates that won titles with peak Shaq don't even consider him the best C they've played with or against.....and none of them are Kobe Bryant. I won't hold by breath waiting for any of Hakeems ex teammates to rate Shaq on a higher GOAT plateau,lol.


I actually counted at least 5 years that Shaq put up numbers better than TD's BEST year. And if TD could "eat away Shaq's dominance", then why didn't TD cover Shaq when they played head to head??? Again, different positions. That's like saying that MJ dominated KAJ. You keep ignoring context and comparing apples to sharks! But whatever. Anything to try to make sense of your history rewrites.

In one of the years you are clinging to, Shaq AVERAGED 30.7, 15.4, 2.4 BPG, and shot 57% from the field in the playoffs. Again, the closest TD ever came to that (in an attempt to "eat away at Shaq's dominance") was 27.6, 14.4, and 4.3 on 45%. The very same year Shaq averaged 28.5, 12.6, and 2.5 on 54%. So the best year TD had in the playoffs weren't even better than Shaq's in the SAME YEAR, much less better than Shaq's best. In that time span, TD was SPANKED head to head vs. Stoudamire. Did Shaq ever have a playoff series where HIS DIRECT COUNTERPART averaged more than 10 ppg than he did?

News flash about competition- most frontcourts were creampuffs BECAUSE of Shaq! Deke- not a creampuff. Akeem-not a creampuff. Sabonis- not a creampuff. 7'4" Smitz- not a creampuff. Let's pick on the weakest- Smitz. Head to head, Shaq averaged 28.2, 12.7, and 54.3%. Akeem averaged 23.1 and 11.1 on 52% from the field. The gap between the players and Smits is in Shaq's favor. Looks like Shaq was able to handle that "creampuff" better than your BFF was. Let's look at Sabas- Shaq- 27.7, 12.2 on 53.3%. Dream- 17.0, 7.1 on 44.3%. And the gap between the players and Sabas is even larger in Shaq's favor than vs. Smits. Now, vs. Deke- Shaq- 21.5, 12.3 on 53%. Dream- 22.6, 10.6, 49%. Looks like Dream did better, huh? But let's put context in there. You LOVE to point out that Deke averaged a lot of points Vs. Shaq in their finals (albeit with a 16.2 ppg differential!). But head to head total, Deke averaged 11.5 vs. Dream (11.6 differential) and 7.5 vs. Shaq (14 point differential). So your "creampuff" argument just went up in smoke just like all your others.

One of those teammates you mentioned was Horry, and he also had negative things to say about Pop and TD. In case you didn't realize, the players are actual people with actual human biases. I tend to factor that stuff in. Regardless, I don't think Shaq was the best skilled player out of the 2. I've said that many times. But he was the better center and had better results in his career. More points. More efficiency. All resulted in more titles.

I conjur up statistical figures because they take the bias out of discussion. When I say that a player that scores 28 points on high efficiency in a close game played better than someone that put up 25 points on low efficiency, it's simple logic backed up by stats. I try to find those stats to take bias out of the equation. But you try to bend logic any way you can to fit your agenda. No matter how you look at it, 2 plus 2 still equals 4. Which is why I am confident in my discussions. Plus the fact that the majority of NBA experts echo my sentiments!
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#279 » by jaypo » Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:09 pm

pandrade83 wrote:
jaypo wrote:
pandrade83 wrote:Shaq vs. Duncan playoffs excl. 08:

Shaq - 24/13/3/3.4 blk+steal on 55% TS and 3 TO per game. 14 wins
Duncan - 26/13/4/3.3 blk + steal on 55% TS and 4 TO per game. 11 wins

Just food for thought for the above Shaq vs. Duncan narrative.


I might add the fact that the Spurs were built to limit tough post play whereas the Lakers were abused by any PF with skill (Sheed, KG, Webber)


Definitely true.

2000: Webber goes off for 25-10-5 in round 1, then Sheed gets 23 a game on 59%! TS
2001: They keep Sheed in check this time (17/8) but Webber gets 27-13-4 and Duncan is the only Spur who functions against LA
2002: SHeed gets 25-12, Duncan gets 29 & 17 - generally outplaying Shaq by a wide margin, Webber gets 25-11-6 then even Kenyon Martin 22 per game.

That's title years and a lot of those series were blow-outs and the guys were still getting off.


Most is right. Bolded is wrong. It should read "generally outplaying Robert Horry, Mark Madsen, and Slava Medvedenko". Because those were the guys covering TD.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#280 » by LakerLegend » Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:37 pm

NormanDale wrote:
Lakerfan17 wrote:
Pg81 wrote:I wonder why some posters here are so dismissive of Hakeem. Out of those 4, he is the best defender and was certainly no slouch on offense either. I even dare to say that he was skill wise as good for a C as MJ was for a SG.
Probably young guys who can't believe he was actually that good because he wasn't a huge star off the court.


Or because this thread has some pretty damn stiff competition. I love Hakeem and definitely feel he deserves his place in this conversation, but I'd still have him 4th. My list is 1) MJ 2) Shaq 3) LeBron 4) Hakeem.


Personally, what Hakeem did in 94/95 destroying teams on both ends including all-time greats at his position one year leading a bunch of roleplayers to a ring, the next year doing it as a low seed while going through multiple 55+ win teams is more impressive than what LeBron did at his peak with the Heat.

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