Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem

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Highest peak in last 25 years

Lebron 2012,2013,2009,2016 or 2017
62
20%
Jordan 1990, 1991,1992 or 1993
150
49%
Shaq 2000 or 2001
68
22%
Hakeem 1993,1994 or 1995
25
8%
 
Total votes: 305

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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#281 » by JordansBulls » Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:58 pm

The jaypo vs FuShengTHEGreat is the greatest debate on realgm. Neither will ever budge.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#282 » by FuShengTHEGreat » Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:36 am

jaypo wrote:I actually counted at least 5 years that Shaq put up numbers better than TD's BEST year. And if TD could "eat away Shaq's dominance", then why didn't TD cover Shaq when they played head to head??? Again, different positions. That's like saying that MJ dominated KAJ. You keep ignoring context and comparing apples to sharks! But whatever. Anything to try to make sense of your history rewrites.

In one of the years you are clinging to, Shaq AVERAGED 30.7, 15.4, 2.4 BPG, and shot 57% from the field in the playoffs. Again, the closest TD ever came to that (in an attempt to "eat away at Shaq's dominance") was 27.6, 14.4, and 4.3 on 45%. The very same year Shaq averaged 28.5, 12.6, and 2.5 on 54%. So the best year TD had in the playoffs weren't even better than Shaq's in the SAME YEAR, much less better than Shaq's best. In that time span, TD was SPANKED head to head vs. Stoudamire. Did Shaq ever have a playoff series where HIS DIRECT COUNTERPART averaged more than 10 ppg than he did?

News flash about competition- most frontcourts were creampuffs BECAUSE of Shaq! Deke- not a creampuff. Akeem-not a creampuff. Sabonis- not a creampuff. 7'4" Smitz- not a creampuff. Let's pick on the weakest- Smitz. Head to head, Shaq averaged 28.2, 12.7, and 54.3%. Akeem averaged 23.1 and 11.1 on 52% from the field. The gap between the players and Smits is in Shaq's favor. Looks like Shaq was able to handle that "creampuff" better than your BFF was. Let's look at Sabas- Shaq- 27.7, 12.2 on 53.3%. Dream- 17.0, 7.1 on 44.3%. And the gap between the players and Sabas is even larger in Shaq's favor than vs. Smits. Now, vs. Deke- Shaq- 21.5, 12.3 on 53%. Dream- 22.6, 10.6, 49%. Looks like Dream did better, huh? But let's put context in there. You LOVE to point out that Deke averaged a lot of points Vs. Shaq in their finals (albeit with a 16.2 ppg differential!). But head to head total, Deke averaged 11.5 vs. Dream (11.6 differential) and 7.5 vs. Shaq (14 point differential). So your "creampuff" argument just went up in smoke just like all your others.

One of those teammates you mentioned was Horry, and he also had negative things to say about Pop and TD. In case you didn't realize, the players are actual people with actual human biases. I tend to factor that stuff in. Regardless, I don't think Shaq was the best skilled player out of the 2. I've said that many times. But he was the better center and had better results in his career. More points. More efficiency. All resulted in more titles.

I conjur up statistical figures because they take the bias out of discussion. When I say that a player that scores 28 points on high efficiency in a close game played better than someone that put up 25 points on low efficiency, it's simple logic backed up by stats. I try to find those stats to take bias out of the equation. But you try to bend logic any way you can to fit your agenda. No matter how you look at it, 2 plus 2 still equals 4. Which is why I am confident in my discussions. Plus the fact that the majority of NBA experts echo my sentiments


:lol: oh boy the hyperbole is hilarious. Shaq had 5 years in his career with #s better than Duncan's best year? Ahahaha

How many of these years should I consider outside of 99-00? Which btw coincided with proven winner Phil coming and flashing 6 rings in front of him and barking in his ear to step it up.

All these "5 years" where 4 of them outside of 99-00 he was surely anchoring middle of the pack to below par defenses and not playing full 82 game schedules? Duncan was anchoring great defenses and playing full slates.

Deke was 34 years old in the 01 Finals....maybe even older and only above Shaq as DPOY that year because Shaq slacked off on D in 00-01. When DRob was MVP his team swept Dekes Nuggets with Mutombo not even able to reach double figures in either points or rebounds. But Shaq beats him and it's suddenly a epic performance? Lolol

Smits? The guy was so hurting he retired right after the 00 Finals,lol. He wasn't even averaging a full half of basketball for Indy during the regular season. I'm watching a game where he was much younger and healthy and Hakeem as the MVP is putting 43 on him and shutting him down.

Sabs had like a million n one ailments by the 00 WCF. Shaq destroyed him in 97 AND 98 but because it resulted in no rings nobody brings this up. But suddenly Shaq wins it all in 00 and Sabonis' reputation is enhanced? lol. Dream had only like 2 healthy years vs Sabs prior to 97/98 injuries. There's NO way that Sabonis had the mobility to prevent peak Hakeem from scoring on him at will facing him up.

As ive proven they were all beat up C's even before they faced Shaq in the playoffs. Shaq didn't make them into anything. And peak Hakeem or Kareem would've destroyed all those creampuffs in Shaq's shoes.

Horry even said I "love you Shaq" when calling Hakeem the GOAT C and said that many years before he even went off on Pop or TD so no hatred in that comment. Nor John Salley aka Shaq's ex teammate: "Hakeem was the greatest C I ever played against".

What official "GOAT" list can you conjure up outside of your personal preference? lol
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#283 » by pandrade83 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:01 am

jaypo wrote:
pandrade83 wrote:
jaypo wrote:
I might add the fact that the Spurs were built to limit tough post play whereas the Lakers were abused by any PF with skill (Sheed, KG, Webber)


Definitely true.

2000: Webber goes off for 25-10-5 in round 1, then Sheed gets 23 a game on 59%! TS
2001: They keep Sheed in check this time (17/8) but Webber gets 27-13-4 and Duncan is the only Spur who functions against LA
2002: SHeed gets 25-12, Duncan gets 29 & 17 - generally outplaying Shaq by a wide margin, Webber gets 25-11-6 then even Kenyon Martin 22 per game.

That's title years and a lot of those series were blow-outs and the guys were still getting off.


Most is right. Bolded is wrong. It should read "generally outplaying Robert Horry, Mark Madsen, and Slava Medvedenko". Because those were the guys covering TD.


I was thinking back to that series and my memory told me that Kobe was the best player on the Lakers in that particular series.

Then I checked the numbers:

Shaq: 21-12-3- 3.6 block+steal on 49% TS
Duncan: 29-17-5-4.2 block + steal on 52% TS

I know that the 1st inclination is to bring up Robinson, but this was his 2nd to last year and he only played 3 games in the series anyway. I still feel pretty comfortable saying that Duncan had a better series than Shaq.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#284 » by jaypo » Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:57 pm

pandrade83 wrote:
jaypo wrote:
pandrade83 wrote:
Definitely true.

2000: Webber goes off for 25-10-5 in round 1, then Sheed gets 23 a game on 59%! TS
2001: They keep Sheed in check this time (17/8) but Webber gets 27-13-4 and Duncan is the only Spur who functions against LA
2002: SHeed gets 25-12, Duncan gets 29 & 17 - generally outplaying Shaq by a wide margin, Webber gets 25-11-6 then even Kenyon Martin 22 per game.

That's title years and a lot of those series were blow-outs and the guys were still getting off.


Most is right. Bolded is wrong. It should read "generally outplaying Robert Horry, Mark Madsen, and Slava Medvedenko". Because those were the guys covering TD.


I was thinking back to that series and my memory told me that Kobe was the best player on the Lakers in that particular series.

Then I checked the numbers:

Shaq: 21-12-3- 3.6 block+steal on 49% TS
Duncan: 29-17-5-4.2 block + steal on 52% TS

I know that the 1st inclination is to bring up Robinson, but this was his 2nd to last year and he only played 3 games in the series anyway. I still feel pretty comfortable saying that Duncan had a better series than Shaq.


I never said he didn't have a better series than Shaq. He did. But it was because of the way the teams were built. The Spurs were built to handle strong post play. The Lakers were torched by EVERY PF. Kenyon Martin had a field day against them! What TD did was no more impressive than what KG, Webber, and Sheed were able to do. Shaq did put up lower numbers than his norm. But he was dealing with a great interior defense. TD was dealing with a defense that allowed every PF to score at will.

Plus, Shaq and TD didn't play the same position. So while TD had a better series, he didn't "beat Shaq head to head". He beat Horry, Madson, and Slava head to head.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#285 » by jaypo » Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:15 pm

JordansBulls wrote:The jaypo vs FuShengTHEGreat is the greatest debate on realgm. Neither will ever budge.


Well, I extended the offer to make it end, but it wasn't well received! Everyone here obviously knows my opinions which I try to back up with numbers and facts, and it's pretty pointless to spend hours continuously saying the same things over and over again. So I'll make one final statement as to why I have the opinions that I do.

I believe Akeem to be the best and most skilled 2 way center since Wilt. He was amazing, and he was the best defensive center since Russ. He leads the list in blocks, and having watched his career, it's pretty easy to have the opinion I have of him. I believe Shaq to be the most dominant center since Wilt. He has scored more points than Akeem. He has scored more playoff points than Akeem. And he did so shooting a much higher fg% than Akeem. As a 24 year old 3rd year player, he went toe to toe with Akeem in the finals. From the late 90's to the mid 2000's, he was clearly the best center, and for most years, the best player in the league. Unstoppable on the offensive end (those who forced him to "struggle- a la Spurs, still had 22 points, 12 boards and over 50% from the field from him) and a great defensive anchor. He LEAD his team to 3 straight titles and 4 trips to the finals in 5 years. He put up some of the best numbers in the finals of anyone. Did he do it alone? Nope. Did MJ? KAJ? Magic? Bird? Russ? Nope. But he was the engine of that Lakers team, and if you don't agree, ask Kobe Bryant.

That being said, I have Shaq, then Akeem, then Duncan all in a row on my GOAT list (probably 7, 8, and 9 depending on how I'm feeling that day). It isn't a slight to any of the other 2. I can make an argument for each of them over anyone else as well. But having watched all 3 careers, I stand by my list. I'll discuss it with anyone. But the problem starts when people start throwing in their personal bias and bashing any of the players by "bending the truth" to fit their agenda. For example, I don't bash Akeem in these discussions. But my counterpart has to bash Shaq to try to make me see it his way. I offered to stop the arguments, and the reply was a giant argument!
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#286 » by NormanDale » Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:09 pm

jaypo wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:The jaypo vs FuShengTHEGreat is the greatest debate on realgm. Neither will ever budge.


Well, I extended the offer to make it end, but it wasn't well received! Everyone here obviously knows my opinions which I try to back up with numbers and facts, and it's pretty pointless to spend hours continuously saying the same things over and over again. So I'll make one final statement as to why I have the opinions that I do.

I believe Akeem to be the best and most skilled 2 way center since Wilt. He was amazing, and he was the best defensive center since Russ. He leads the list in blocks, and having watched his career, it's pretty easy to have the opinion I have of him. I believe Shaq to be the most dominant center since Wilt. He has scored more points than Akeem. He has scored more playoff points than Akeem. And he did so shooting a much higher fg% than Akeem. As a 24 year old 3rd year player, he went toe to toe with Akeem in the finals. From the late 90's to the mid 2000's, he was clearly the best center, and for most years, the best player in the league. Unstoppable on the offensive end (those who forced him to "struggle- a la Spurs, still had 22 points, 12 boards and over 50% from the field from him) and a great defensive anchor. He LEAD his team to 3 straight titles and 4 trips to the finals in 5 years. He put up some of the best numbers in the finals of anyone. Did he do it alone? Nope. Did MJ? KAJ? Magic? Bird? Russ? Nope. But he was the engine of that Lakers team, and if you don't agree, ask Kobe Bryant.

That being said, I have Shaq, then Akeem, then Duncan all in a row on my GOAT list (probably 7, 8, and 9 depending on how I'm feeling that day). It isn't a slight to any of the other 2. I can make an argument for each of them over anyone else as well. But having watched all 3 careers, I stand by my list. I'll discuss it with anyone. But the problem starts when people start throwing in their personal bias and bashing any of the players by "bending the truth" to fit their agenda. For example, I don't bash Akeem in these discussions. But my counterpart has to bash Shaq to try to make me see it his way. I offered to stop the arguments, and the reply was a giant argument!


Curious, who are your top 6? I also have those three in the same order, but they're 8-9-10 on my list.

Mine goes MJ, KAJ, LeBron, Russell, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Shaq, Hakeem, TD. I'm curious which of the people in my Top 7 is below those three big men in your list. I just hope it's not a guy who won three straight MVP's in arguably the strongest era in league history, and who many considered the greatest ever while he played...
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#287 » by jaypo » Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:20 pm

NormanDale wrote:
jaypo wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:The jaypo vs FuShengTHEGreat is the greatest debate on realgm. Neither will ever budge.


Well, I extended the offer to make it end, but it wasn't well received! Everyone here obviously knows my opinions which I try to back up with numbers and facts, and it's pretty pointless to spend hours continuously saying the same things over and over again. So I'll make one final statement as to why I have the opinions that I do.

I believe Akeem to be the best and most skilled 2 way center since Wilt. He was amazing, and he was the best defensive center since Russ. He leads the list in blocks, and having watched his career, it's pretty easy to have the opinion I have of him. I believe Shaq to be the most dominant center since Wilt. He has scored more points than Akeem. He has scored more playoff points than Akeem. And he did so shooting a much higher fg% than Akeem. As a 24 year old 3rd year player, he went toe to toe with Akeem in the finals. From the late 90's to the mid 2000's, he was clearly the best center, and for most years, the best player in the league. Unstoppable on the offensive end (those who forced him to "struggle- a la Spurs, still had 22 points, 12 boards and over 50% from the field from him) and a great defensive anchor. He LEAD his team to 3 straight titles and 4 trips to the finals in 5 years. He put up some of the best numbers in the finals of anyone. Did he do it alone? Nope. Did MJ? KAJ? Magic? Bird? Russ? Nope. But he was the engine of that Lakers team, and if you don't agree, ask Kobe Bryant.

That being said, I have Shaq, then Akeem, then Duncan all in a row on my GOAT list (probably 7, 8, and 9 depending on how I'm feeling that day). It isn't a slight to any of the other 2. I can make an argument for each of them over anyone else as well. But having watched all 3 careers, I stand by my list. I'll discuss it with anyone. But the problem starts when people start throwing in their personal bias and bashing any of the players by "bending the truth" to fit their agenda. For example, I don't bash Akeem in these discussions. But my counterpart has to bash Shaq to try to make me see it his way. I offered to stop the arguments, and the reply was a giant argument!


Curious, who are your top 6? I also have those three in the same order, but they're 8-9-10 on my list.

Mine goes MJ, KAJ, LeBron, Russell, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Shaq, Hakeem, TD. I'm curious which of the people in my Top 7 is below those three big men in your list. I just hope it's not a guy who won three straight MVP's in arguably the strongest era in league history, and who many considered the greatest ever while he played...


Depending on how I feel on a certain day, I may put Bird behind TD. But usually, my top 10 consist of the following, with some places interchangeable:

MJ, Russ, KAJ, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Lebron, Shaq, Akeem, TD.

I can make an argument for some of these above others. I also think along these lines:

1. MJ, KAJ, Russ
2. Wilt, Magic
3. Shaq, Lebron, Bird
4. Akeem, TD
5. Everyone else

My reason is that I believe MJ, KAJ, and Russ all have arguments as the GOAT. All the others have arguments to be in the discussion, but not enough to surpass the 3.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#288 » by NormanDale » Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:26 pm

jaypo wrote:
NormanDale wrote:
jaypo wrote:
Well, I extended the offer to make it end, but it wasn't well received! Everyone here obviously knows my opinions which I try to back up with numbers and facts, and it's pretty pointless to spend hours continuously saying the same things over and over again. So I'll make one final statement as to why I have the opinions that I do.

I believe Akeem to be the best and most skilled 2 way center since Wilt. He was amazing, and he was the best defensive center since Russ. He leads the list in blocks, and having watched his career, it's pretty easy to have the opinion I have of him. I believe Shaq to be the most dominant center since Wilt. He has scored more points than Akeem. He has scored more playoff points than Akeem. And he did so shooting a much higher fg% than Akeem. As a 24 year old 3rd year player, he went toe to toe with Akeem in the finals. From the late 90's to the mid 2000's, he was clearly the best center, and for most years, the best player in the league. Unstoppable on the offensive end (those who forced him to "struggle- a la Spurs, still had 22 points, 12 boards and over 50% from the field from him) and a great defensive anchor. He LEAD his team to 3 straight titles and 4 trips to the finals in 5 years. He put up some of the best numbers in the finals of anyone. Did he do it alone? Nope. Did MJ? KAJ? Magic? Bird? Russ? Nope. But he was the engine of that Lakers team, and if you don't agree, ask Kobe Bryant.

That being said, I have Shaq, then Akeem, then Duncan all in a row on my GOAT list (probably 7, 8, and 9 depending on how I'm feeling that day). It isn't a slight to any of the other 2. I can make an argument for each of them over anyone else as well. But having watched all 3 careers, I stand by my list. I'll discuss it with anyone. But the problem starts when people start throwing in their personal bias and bashing any of the players by "bending the truth" to fit their agenda. For example, I don't bash Akeem in these discussions. But my counterpart has to bash Shaq to try to make me see it his way. I offered to stop the arguments, and the reply was a giant argument!


Curious, who are your top 6? I also have those three in the same order, but they're 8-9-10 on my list.

Mine goes MJ, KAJ, LeBron, Russell, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Shaq, Hakeem, TD. I'm curious which of the people in my Top 7 is below those three big men in your list. I just hope it's not a guy who won three straight MVP's in arguably the strongest era in league history, and who many considered the greatest ever while he played...


Depending on how I feel on a certain day, I may put Bird behind TD. But usually, my top 10 consist of the following, with some places interchangeable:

MJ, Russ, KAJ, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Lebron, Shaq, Akeem, TD.

I can make an argument for some of these above others. I also think along these lines:

1. MJ, KAJ, Russ
2. Wilt, Magic
3. Shaq, Lebron, Bird
4. Akeem, TD
5. Everyone else

My reason is that I believe MJ, KAJ, and Russ all have arguments as the GOAT. All the others have arguments to be in the discussion, but not enough to surpass the 3.


Fair enough.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#289 » by Gregoire » Wed Sep 6, 2017 12:08 pm

BTW, currently I rank them:

1. Peak Jordan (91 PO) - 7,5 Offense + 2,25 Defense
2. Peak Lebron (2016 PO) - 7,0 Offense + 2,5 Defense
3. Peak Shaq (2001 PO) - 6,5 Offense + 2,75 Defense
4. Peak Hakeem (1993 PO) - 5,75 Offense + 3,25 Defense
nate33 wrote:

Yeah, when ever I make all time comparisons, I pretty much ignore the pre-3PT-line era. The game was so different then. It's apples and oranges. Those guys may be better or may be worse, we're never really going to know.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#290 » by Gregoire » Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:25 pm

We could assume different definitions of "peak":

If 300+ games: 1. MJ 2. LeBron 3. Hakeem 4. Shaq
If 82 games: 1. MJ 2. Shaq 3. Lebron 4. Hakeem
If 20 game playoff run: 1. MJ/ Lebron 2. Shaq/ Hakeem
If 48 min stretch: 1. MJ 2. Lebron/Shaq 3. Hakeem
nate33 wrote:

Yeah, when ever I make all time comparisons, I pretty much ignore the pre-3PT-line era. The game was so different then. It's apples and oranges. Those guys may be better or may be worse, we're never really going to know.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#291 » by bledredwine » Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:10 am

Can't touch Jordan here, and then from the remaining you can't touch Shaq. Then it's Lebron Hakeem a wash depending on what you need and era you're in. .... Heck, poll is accurate. That's weird. Wtf? But yeah, Jordan and Shaq were more dominant than anything we've seen (exception Wilt but wish we had footage of it)
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#292 » by micahclay » Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:32 pm

Lebron
Shaq
Jordan
Hakeem

Biggest gap is between Jordan and Hakeem. I have Duncan as having a similar level peak, which is on a half tier below these other 3.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#293 » by RCM88x » Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:46 pm

Gregoire wrote:We could assume different definitions of "peak":

If 300+ games: 1. MJ 2. LeBron 3. Hakeem 4. Shaq
If 82 games: 1. MJ 2. Shaq 3. Lebron 4. Hakeem
If 20 game playoff run: 1. MJ/ Lebron 2. Shaq/ Hakeem
If 48 min stretch: 1. MJ 2. Lebron/Shaq 3. Hakeem


Interesting you'd pick Shaq 2nd for 82 games as he'd on average miss significantly more Regular Season time than the other three.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#294 » by Gregoire » Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:28 am

RCM88x wrote:
Gregoire wrote:We could assume different definitions of "peak":

If 300+ games: 1. MJ 2. LeBron 3. Hakeem 4. Shaq
If 82 games: 1. MJ 2. Shaq 3. Lebron 4. Hakeem
If 20 game playoff run: 1. MJ/ Lebron 2. Shaq/ Hakeem
If 48 min stretch: 1. MJ 2. Lebron/Shaq 3. Hakeem


Interesting you'd pick Shaq 2nd for 82 games as he'd on average miss significantly more Regular Season time than the other three.


I assume that we take healthy and motivated Shaq ( peak version), so he played basically all games.
nate33 wrote:

Yeah, when ever I make all time comparisons, I pretty much ignore the pre-3PT-line era. The game was so different then. It's apples and oranges. Those guys may be better or may be worse, we're never really going to know.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#295 » by Gregoire » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:01 pm

Bump!

Please, more discussion, everybody welcomed, especially great posters like:

lavta
Heej
rebirthoftheM
ElGee
PaulieWal
Owly
drza
Samurai
Winsome Gerbil
The Realist
rich316
G35
Shot Clock
nate33 wrote:

Yeah, when ever I make all time comparisons, I pretty much ignore the pre-3PT-line era. The game was so different then. It's apples and oranges. Those guys may be better or may be worse, we're never really going to know.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#296 » by Gregoire » Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:57 am

Its interesting, that these are top-4 peaks EVER in ElGee recent project.

1. MJ - 0.31
2. Shaq - 0.29
3. Lebron - 0.29
4. Hakeem - 0.27
nate33 wrote:

Yeah, when ever I make all time comparisons, I pretty much ignore the pre-3PT-line era. The game was so different then. It's apples and oranges. Those guys may be better or may be worse, we're never really going to know.
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#297 » by Gregoire » Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:05 am

BTW, I post absolutely huuuuge (one of the best ever) breakdown of top-5 peaks by poster SideshowBob, since 3 of these 5 belongs to this comparison.

Discussion (Top 5)

3. Shaquille O'Neal, 2000

I think either 00 or 01 can be argued for Shaq, they're both on the same plane for me.

The driving force behind Shaq's dominance was his offensive impact, and this was largely due to the "neutron star" effect. Essentially, create VERY high percentage shots at the rim and the entire defense gravitates towards you. Pretty straightforward, and when you couple that with a strong inside scoring skillset, and his knack of not frequently turning the ball over, you're going start creating some highly efficient team offense as the floor will open up for everyone else. But that's just the basis, the foundation if you will. What took him above and beyond the typical level of impact was two major factors. Passing, and spacing.

Shaq, for all his dominance on the inside, had the ability to play out up till the mid-block. Not up high, at that point he'd need a true outside shot and that wasn't happening, but far out enough that he could allow for optimal spacing within the triple-post offense (but really within any offense) and foster cutting action and ease corner shooting. Couple that with his ability and willingness to make passes, and he's going to be able to find guys in good positions to create or score. Else, he's not so far out that he's not going to be able to make a foray at the basket, had strong range on that hook, and was pretty comfortable on the baseline with that 1.5 handed short jumper.

What all this results in, then, is one of the best offensive big-men of all time and at +6, ranking just a level behind the elite wings and points. However, what allows the 2000 version to standout obviously is the focus on defense.

What he brings is what you'd expect, aggressive shot-blocking/rim protection, which is just an overall disruption factor for opponent offenses, and is something that is actively present at almost all times he's on the floor. Exceptional mobility for a 7'1, 300+ lb, which results in the ability to cover and affect a huge amount of floor space in the lane, helps in recovering for shot-blocking but on the other hand lateral defense was clearly not his forte; he's not shutting down the PnR. Still, all of that and the rebounding have me place him as a strong defensive player for a big-man. Clearly not at the level of the elites of his generation, but VERY strong nonetheless, and enough that when coupled with his offense, puts him close to tied for #2 overall for me.


2. Michael Jordan, 1992

I've got 90, 91, and 92 all on about the same level for Jordan, and I'll get into why I picked 92 later.

Jordan's dominance primarily drew from the offensive side of the ball. In that manner, he's like the wing version of Shaq; he has the same "neutron star" effect, only he's putting that kind of pressure on the defense virtually everywhere on the court, and is a better playmaker to boot. The gaudy assist numbers don't quite capture the effect, the insane pressure he puts on defenses with his own shot-creation (be it attacking the basket, operating on the block or in the midrange, moving without the ball, whatever) consistently put his teammates into positions where they could easily score without having to do much creation at all, which also reduces the tendency to turn the ball over. We already know that Jordan's exceptionally good at taking care of the ball, but his presence was also significantly driving the entire team's TOV% down. High% shot-making and creation, coupled with low mistake ratios basically makes him an offensive economizer. He's going to get you the best out of your offensive possessions.

On the defensive side of the ball, I consider him an anchor. In fact, I consider anyone who hits a certain threshold of defensive impact an anchor, regardless of what style leads to that impact. Is he on the level of the best interior anchors of all time? Of course not, but in any given year, he's still providing top level defensive impact. At a wingspan of 6'11, coupled with his motor, athleticism, and awareness, he provides an "all-over-the-place" effect; when dialed in, he's covering a ridiculous amount of lateral space, disrupting shots and passing lanes, inducing high TO rates and just wreaking havoc for opposing offenses all over the floor. Couple that with his ability to provide some degree of shot-blocking/rim protection and you see that he's providing a horizontal AND vertical game. He can carry a huge defensive load off the ball, while then additionally providing stifling on-ball defense coupled with positional versatility.

Now, why 92 over 91? It's mostly a matter of preference, but I can see 91's case. Results-wise, I don't think anything tops 91; just under a +7 RS offense, about on par with 92, and then a +11 offense in PS, which easily tops 92, and some insanely efficient box-score production to boot. Hard to argue with that. The case in my mind is that he's added a bit more weight, without really losing any of his explosiveness, making him more of a threat in the post, without taking away from his strengths. Add to that a slight refinement of skills that basically comes with every passing season, and a somewhat improved jumper, and I feel like you're getting ever so slightly more with 92 than 91. Again, its a small difference, and I'd be perfectly okay with slotting 91 here as well.


1. Lebron James, 2013

I had 2010 James at 3 prior to 2013, and that version to me was basically Jordan-lite. It was the same "neutron-star" theory; he's able to create high percentage offense for himself and that sucks in defensive attention to such an extent that it leaves others in very favorable positions to score. 2013 James though is a different beast. He's more diverse, more polished, less involved ON the ball and moreso OFF it, reminiscent of Bird to me more than anyone else.

Starting with offense, he's now a threat all over the place, not just at the basket. His spot up shooting was amongst the top in the league in 2013, he can space the floor all the way out to the three point line and is now a master at the corner 3 (35% in 2009, 38% in 2010, 32% in 2011/2012, and 49% in 2013), drawing the defense (often time the bigs; he played a lot of minutes at the PF) out and opening up the lane (which he can capitalize on with his passing). When he's not outside, he can either A.) be slotted into the post, and provide creation there, be it by scoring at the rim or again, sucking defensive attention and allowing for more operation space on the perimeter for others or B.) be seen actually moving off the ball, frequently cutting, and forcing defensive rotations predicated by his movement. Again, he's now a threat everywhere.

What this results in? Well, on-ball, I don't think he's as strong of a threat as he was back in 2010 or 2009, but off the ball he's gone from being simply a threat to cut (and that only when paired with a decent on-ball playmaker, granted there was a definite progression in 2010) to pressuring the defense at all times. What this allows is offensive lineup diversity. He doesn't need to be paired strictly with spacers, you can plant most any sort of lineup and he'll be able to fill an offensive role and thrive in it, while allowing others to do so as well. Even when paired with a ball dominant guard in Wade, we're seeing huge offensive results where we did not see them before (despite Wade's relative dropoff). So what he managed to bring was not only an improvement in skillset that allowed him to impact the game better, it also allowed him to fit with other offensive talents better. Is he quite at Bird level? No, certainly not in either regard (fit or impact), but he's not far behind at this point either.

I'll start on the defensive end by saying that I also consider James a defensive anchor, just as I do Jordan. At 6'8 with a 7'1 wingspan, he can also play above his size and provide shot-blocking/rim protection. But James thrives not as a guy who gets his hands on the ball, but moreso as someone who just makes everything difficult for the team with the ball. He provides massive floor coverage with that size, consistently disrupting opposing offensive positioning, terrorizing the pick and roll, aggressively trapping, having a near perfect sense of when to help on the double yet still being in position to recover, using his insane athleticism and lateral quickness to delay recovery times but still provide shot disruption. Combine this with the positional versatility, on (elite man defense, can overwhelm smaller guys with his size, is efficient at funneling ball handlers into the help, strong post defense with shot blocking) and off the ball (aggressive fronting and ball denial for bigger inside guys, quickness and agility to stick with smaller guys) and you've got a player who's providing high impact with a huge defensive load, much larger than you'd expect for the typical wing. I've got him and Pippen as basically on par with most elite defensive bigs (but not the GOAT level guys), and no other wing on that level.

Overall, this results in a peak that ends up a notch higher than Jordan and Shaq for me; very strong offense and very strong defense. He's not the absolute best guy on either end, but he brings balance in a way that allows him to have massive global impact on any kind of team.
nate33 wrote:

Yeah, when ever I make all time comparisons, I pretty much ignore the pre-3PT-line era. The game was so different then. It's apples and oranges. Those guys may be better or may be worse, we're never really going to know.
DarthTeufel
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#298 » by DarthTeufel » Sun May 6, 2018 1:14 am

Gregoire, I can't reply to your PM for some reason(likely not enough posts), but I'll post in your thread.

For me, Shaq is the best and Hakeem is the worst. at least for their times.... in the current nba it is possible that Shaq wouldn't translate as well since defense is about being versatile/constant switching/pick n rolls.... And Hakeem is more mobile. But then again Shaq might just dominate even more offensively. Either way I rank peak Shaq 1 and Hakeems peak the lowest. Shaq is just the most unstoppable of them.

LeBron/MJ. I think LeBron was better, but one of my biggest LeBron critiques is he needs to be the team tailored to his needs/other players(other than shooters) suffer. Lebron thus was more important for his team, but I think Jordan could fit and thrive on more systems.

so I apologize for not giving clear cut. But for their times I think 1. Shaq 2. LeBron 3.Jordan 4.Hakeem. I think that's the way to go about it.
Jiminy Glick
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#299 » by Jiminy Glick » Sun May 6, 2018 7:21 am

I would actually say 88-90 is Jordan's best 3 year peak. His peak is easily the best out of the group. He had elite offense, defense, and athleticism. Around 1992 I feel like he lost some athleticism.
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henshao
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Re: Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem 

Post#300 » by henshao » Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:38 pm

Extremely difficult to call. One way of looking at it how the team would perform without said player. Without Olajuwon, there was no "Houston Rockets."

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The team's center. This has to be one of the most herculean efforts in all of basketball history. Lebron's effort is close, though.

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Shaq was certainly a man possessed. Downright frightening when he was motivated.

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And who could possibly underrate Jordan? How does a guard come so close to leading the team in blocks? The man was a psychopath.

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Hakeem Olajuwon is my favorite player, so I am somewhat biased. Brother may have done the most with the least. As far as the highest peak goes, though.

Scoring
Jordan
O'Neal/Olajuwon
James

Offense Creating
James
Jordan
Olajuwon/O'Neal

Defense
Olajuwon
Jordan
- - - - -
O'Neal/James

Spirit
Olajuwon/Jordan
- - - - -
O'Neal/James

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Scoring: In the history of the game, there have been a LOT of guys who could score. Relative to era defense, Jordan was the best of them. After that, in this lineup, Shaq was just plain unfair in the paint. However, Olajuwon bore the burden of being the #1 and #2 option for his team, so it's a wash for me here. Any time taking a shot against a triple-team is probably as good of an option as kicking it out to the open man :lol: :lol: :lol: Bringing up the rear is Lebron, which is by no means something to be ashamed about. The man could put on a scoring clinic when necessary it's really more about who specifically he is up against here.

Offense Creation: Lebron was doing his best Magic impersonation here. His scoring threat lead to many openings for his teammates, and he would find them with the ball. Following him was Jordan, who in his quest to win was not shy about giving up the rock for an easy bucket. Olajuwon, being only human, would occasionally fatigue from Dream-Shaking double-teams and chuck it to whichever league's-most-average-teammate was hottest. Shaq did not create offense per-se. Shaq was the offense. By the time he got the ball he was already 6 feet from the rim about to mash someone. "Get Shaq the ball" might be just as predictable as "Get Hakeem the ball" however you could expect points from 15ft from the Dream, with or without the threat of Kobe. His offensive rebounds are eye-popping for sure, but this also can be attributing to having someone else worthy to be the #1 option on a given play. It's harder to get your own rebound.

Defense: I'm probably not making many friends so far in this post so I'll be blunt. '93 Hakeem might be the best overall defender ever. Where this ~7ft guy got the energy to beat a double-team on one side of the floor, race down to his own basket and then block a shot directly to a teammate I'll never know. Many of his defensive stops were so early in a guy's shot they counted more as a steal than a block, when he wasn't outright picking a guy's pocket. Not far behind him is Jordan, who as mentioned was a psychopath. If he and Olajuwon were ever allowed on the same team you might see the first ever NBA playoff game won via "No Mas" forfeit. Following two of the best ever defenders are Shaq and Lebron, both exceptional in their own right. Shaq via size and quickness alone could be expected to swat shots away at an impressive rate. Lebron likewise would stop you when he put his mind to it. However Shaq was not exactly the king of hustle and Lebron was only human. Shaq infamously claims he's never been dunked on. Well sir if you're a center who's never been dunked on you've not been doing your job. Taking the risk of being on a poster comes with the territory. And as I just alluded to, Lebron had such an offensive burden to bear he had to pick his spots on defense. Even the King is only human.

Spirit: I'll say it again. Michael Jordan is a psychopath when it comes to winning a game of basketball. He can't be reasoned with, he can't be bargained with, he absolutely will not stop until you are defeated. In a similar way, Hakeem demonstrated that he was willing to lead his team in all statistical categories, take on and beat every big-man in the league's best era of big-men, and also climb a mountain to steal an enchanted eagle feather, drive the team's bus, do the team's taxes, buy the 3rd string player's mama a house and whatever else was required to win. Shaq surely was a man possessed. That year. If he was really serious about winning he would have been more willing to look bad for the sake of the team. Working out in the offseason, granny-style free throws, risking getting posterized. Lebron was likewise a man on a mission. That year. Insert cramp jokes here.

So my final verdict for highest peak? Even the question is difficult to define. For me, plug one of these players into an average 5-man squad and see what happens. I would bet Hakeem Olajuwon goes the furthest.

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