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This guy was just amazing that year, leading a pretty unimpressive supporting cast to the playoffs, and giving the Suns (well, without Amare, but still a clearly superior team)a lot of trouble. His level of play stayed exactly the same between regular season and the postseason. Back in the day, I remember thinking how he really deserved some serious consideration in the MVP voting. He actually finished 7th, which is still pretty high, but not as high as it should be, as IMO he did enough to be voted in the top 5. There was some fantastic competition (Dirk, Kobe, Wade, Nash all close to their peaks, and of course LeBron), so it's no wonder he wasn't, as a bit lesser of a player, though. I really don't see how he isn't better than Chris Webber, to be honest. This will probably be seen as sacrilegious here, but I'd rank him in the same territory as Kevin McHale. Totally different styles, but very similar results. K-Mac's efficiency was a little better, but he wasn't the focal point of opposing defenses, unlike Brand in his prime.

I'd rank him as the third best PF in the 05-06 season, behind Dirk (close to or at his peak that year, actually) and KG (not a big difference, though, but Garnett was still pretty close to his 04 and 05 level of play). I'd give him a slight edge over Duncan (monster playoffs by TD in 06, but mediocre regular season numbers by his standards) for a superior consistency. Plantar fasciitis is a painful injury to play through, that's for sure, but it really limited him for quite some time.

*I may be a little too generous for him as far as top 5 MVP, but give the man some credit - just leading the Clippers to the playoffs is deserving of the MVP award. Well, at least before Blake/CP3 era, when they were seen as almost as embarrassing of a franchise like the Bobcats nowadays.

Not even close just in the last 20 years or so Karl Duncan KG Dirk Barkley Pau JO Rodman and Webber have much better peaks.

CaliBullsFan wrote:Just in the last 20 years or so Karl Duncan KG Dirk Barkley Pau JO Rodman and Webber have better peaks. Brand is top 25 at best

I'd really like to see an argument for those three over Brand.

Rodman is an interesting case, it's hard to compare him to those other guys, but I can agree with you on that one.

Quotatious wrote:

CaliBullsFan wrote:Just in the last 20 years or so Karl Duncan KG Dirk Barkley Pau JO Rodman and Webber have better peaks. Brand is top 25 at best

I'd really like to see an argument for those three over Brand.

Rodman is an interesting case, it's hard to compare him to those other guys, but I can agree with you on that one.

Webber's better than Brand at everything.
Pau is better at everything except offensive rebounding
JO isn't as good a passer or offensive rebounder but was a far far far superior defensive player.

I've only been watching basketball since 2000 so I can't really judge, but out of the players I've seen KG, Duncan, and Dirk are the only players with better peaks.

CaliBullsFan wrote:[
Webber's better than Brand at everything.
Pau is better at everything except offensive rebounding

You sure about that? Pretty sure defense is still played in the NBA and there is zero chance either of those guys are close to Brand defensively. Esp Webber.

Would anyone take grizzlies Pau over Brand?

Because I don't see what aspect of his game significantly changed from Memphis to LA. He just was on a better team

Texas Chuck wrote:

CaliBullsFan wrote:[
Webber's better than Brand at everything.
Pau is better at everything except offensive rebounding

You sure about that? Pretty sure defense is still played in the NBA and there is zero chance either of those guys are close to Brand defensively. Esp Webber.

Brand wasn't good defensively, he got blocks and steals which is good for fantasy but for the most part struggled to guard his position because he was 6'6. Except for 06 when he got to play with Cassell he had a huge offensive responsibility which usually meant taking possessions of on D.

Peak 08-10 Pau was great defensively easily better than Brand. Webber much like Brand got blocks and steals and took possessions off on D because of his offensive responsibility but at least had the size to put up a fight against other PFs.

It may have been a fluke, but '06 Brand was better than any version of Webber, Pau, or anybody else since 2000 not named Duncan, Garnett, or Dirk. That's just his 1-year peak. Prime, longevity, etc is a different story.

Brand played amazingly in the 2005-2006 season, so actually he might have a case.

6 players are "locks", they can't be touched by Brand's caliber:

Duncan
Garnett
Malone
Barkley
Nowitzki
McHale

Then there are some legends of the old era like Pettit or Schayes almost impossible to evaluate in these kinds of comparisons... or even a 70's star like Hayes. McGinnis? Cunningham? Bobby Jones?

If we don't exclude them, let's assume Pettit and Hayes are in the Top10.

Than we have 2 spots remaining, and NONE of the candidates seems clearly better than Brand.
Webber, Gasol, Rodman, Kemp, R. Wallace, Stoudemire, JO, Love

I really don't like JO, even at his peak, he had an atrocious FG% for a big man.
Rasheed's best version in Portland is better than JO, I think, but he might still be behind Brand.
Rodman never led a team like Brand did. Of course, Rodman is another player who is extremely hard to compare, but Brand's peak season is better for me.

I really can't decide between Kemp, Amare, Webber, Gasol and well, Brand. They all could have a case for the Top10.

Rodman
DeBusschere
McHale
KG
Dirk
Barkley
Malone
Duncan

Then there are guys like McGinnis, Terry Cumming and the other 60-70's stars that are debatable.

Kemp was an absolute monster at his peak too

CaliBullsFan wrote:Brand wasn't good defensively, he got blocks and steals which is good for fantasy but for the most part struggled to guard his position because he was 6'6. Except for 06 when he got to play with Cassell he had a huge offensive responsibility which usually meant taking possessions of on D.

Peak 08-10 Pau was great defensively easily better than Brand. Webber much like Brand got blocks and steals and took possessions off on D because of his offensive responsibility but at least had the size to put up a fight against other PFs.

i guess you never really watched Brand play. He also was an excellent post defender, something Webber had zero interest in doing. Brand used his strength to his advantage on the defensive end to great advantage. Webber hated physical contact of any kind. Gasol was obviously better than Webber because of his additional size and his willingness to give effort. His main problem is that he didnt have the mobility to as effective playing 4 but because of the roster makeup of his teams, that's primarily what he played.

Brand has always been a 2-way player.

CaliBullsFan wrote:Brand wasn't good defensively, he got blocks and steals which is good for fantasy but for the most part struggled to guard his position because he was 6'6.

Brand made (sort of still makes) up for it with a giant wingspan of 7' 5.5" (his standing reach is 9' 2" - two inches more than Anthony Davis...), combined with great strength and decent athleticism like good footspeed and lateral quickness.

Brand was really good defensive player. Neither Duncan- or Garnett-esque nor like Ben Wallace but a good one who was hurt by the lack of talented teammates for years.

ThunderDan9 wrote:Brand played amazingly in the 2005-2006 season, so actually he might have a case.

6 players are "locks", they can't be touched by Brand's caliber:

Duncan
Garnett
Malone
Barkley
Nowitzki
McHale

Then there are some legends of the old era like Pettit or Schayes almost impossible to evaluate in these kinds of comparisons... or even a 70's star like Hayes. McGinnis? Cunningham? Bobby Jones?

If we don't exclude them, let's assume Pettit and Hayes are in the Top10.

Than we have 2 spots remaining, and NONE of the candidates seems clearly better than Brand.
Webber, Gasol, Rodman, Kemp, R. Wallace, Stoudemire, JO, Love

I really don't like JO, even at his peak, he had an atrocious FG% for a big man.
Rasheed's best version in Portland is better than JO, I think, but he might still be behind Brand.
Rodman never led a team like Brand did. Of course, Rodman is another player who is extremely hard to compare, but Brand's peak season is better for me.

I really can't decide between Kemp, Amare, Webber, Gasol and well, Brand. They all could have a case for the Top10.

Very good post. Hard to disagree with any of this.

BmanInBigD wrote:It may have been a fluke, but '06 Brand was better than any version of Webber, Pau, or anybody else since 2000 not named Duncan, Garnett, or Dirk. That's just his 1-year peak. Prime, longevity, etc is a different story.

This is beyond ridiculous 06 Brand 25/10 is better than 01 Webber who averaged 27-11-4? No way do you actually believe that. This is like weeks ago when you had people arguing that Gilbert Arenas peak was better than Iverson's

Masigond wrote:

CaliBullsFan wrote:Brand wasn't good defensively, he got blocks and steals which is good for fantasy but for the most part struggled to guard his position because he was 6'6.

Brand made (sort of still makes) up for it with a giant wingspan of 7' 5.5" (his standing reach is 9' 2" - two inches more than Anthony Davis...), combined with great strength and decent athleticism like good footspeed and lateral quickness.

Brand was really good defensive player. Neither Duncan- or Garnett-esque nor like Ben Wallace but a good one who was hurt by the lack of talented teammates for years.

Brand like Webber was a good fantasy defensive player(blocks and steals) neither of them were 2 way players when they had to carry the load on offense Webber catches more flack for this because he had a lot more potential but Brand was the same way. Webber was a more passable on ball defender though. Brand despite his freak long arms still struggled trying to guard his position.

CaliBullsFan wrote:

BmanInBigD wrote:It may have been a fluke, but '06 Brand was better than any version of Webber, Pau, or anybody else since 2000 not named Duncan, Garnett, or Dirk. That's just his 1-year peak. Prime, longevity, etc is a different story.

This is beyond ridiculous 06 Brand 25/10 is better than 01 Webber who averaged 27-11-4? No way do you actually believe that. This is like weeks ago when you had people arguing that Gilbert Arenas peak was better than Iverson's

Those statlines are pretty close, and when you take into account efficiency and defense, your argument argument pretty much supports Brand being better.

Brand really did have a monster year in '06. It's one of those cases where a player has one year that's noticeably better than any other season they have. Brand's work losing 20 or so pounds and working so much on his jump shot really paid off. He seemed almost automatic from mid-range. His '07 season was a bit of a letdown with speculation that he was tired after playing for team USA, but those same improvements were still in his game. It's a shame he got injured after that prematurely ending his prime when he had only seemed to really enter it around '05 or '06 and it's no coincidence that the Clippers had gotten better around that time and were a respectable team. In fact, people forget that they weren't far from being more successful than the Lakers for a 3rd consecutive season in '07, though the Lakers obviously edged them out.

As for power forwards in '06, I'd have him 4th behind Dirk, Tim and KG, but definitely a top 10 player. But I'm not taking him over a peak McHale who I'd say was probably a top 5 post scorer in NBA history, and a better defender than Brand. Peak C-Webb is a good debate, though. By the way, despite the numbers, I thought C-Webb was better in 2000 than 2001.

The Infamous1 wrote:Would anyone take grizzlies Pau over Brand?

Because I don't see what aspect of his game significantly changed from Memphis to LA. He just was on a better team

Definitely wouldn't take Grizzlies Gasol over Brand. That's a pretty easy comparison because Gasol had his best season in Memphis the same year Brand peaked, and I can't think of anyone who thought Gasol was better at the time.

But I saw significant improvements post-'08 for Gasol. After the loss to Boston, Gasol gained weight, was noticeably stronger and played noticeably tougher to the point where the soft label really didn't seem appropriate during the '09 and '10 seasons, imo. Not surprisingly, he became a significantly better rebounder around this time than he had been prior, and was better defensively. Not as much of a difference offensively, but I'd say he was a bit better in the low post, partially for the same reason, and he seemed to be a more accurate mid-range shooter.

Obviously, the situation was a noticeable difference. Pau seemed to benefit from a great coach in Phil, being a perfect fit for the triangle, and Kobe being the primary focus of opposing defenses, but it's clear that Pau was at his best in '09 and '10. The reason I think Pau's impact shouldn't be underestimated is the impact he made on the Lakers instantly. In the '08 season, he went to the Lakers after they had already lost Bynum, so that's essentially a 42-45 win team without him, and for the '07-'08 season, they were 24-11 with Bynum, 11-9 without Bynum or Gasol(really 11-10 including a game Pau only played 4 minutes in) and 22-4 with Gasol excluding that same 4 minute game. That's an enormous improvement, and as mentioned, he improved after '08.

He's not going to be the guy you think of when picking first options, but when you get beyond the players you think could actually win as "the man" in the way MJ, Hakeem, Shaq, Kobe, Lebron, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Duncan, Wade, Dirk ect. have, I think you have to start looking at guys who can make a huge impact as 2nd options, and Gasol was great with that in mind.

Glad to see a legitimate discussion in this thread.

CaliBullsFan wrote:Webber's better than Brand at everything.

Sorry for being that harsh, but that's a ridiculous thing to say. Others have already stated why. Comparing raw averages, even from the same era, really isn't a good way to compare players.
Brand has a huge advantage as far as who was more efficient scoring the basketball (plus Webber had a much better team around him, and should never take over 20 FGA, as he actually did. EB has had a far superior shot selection, and was actually a better midrange shooter, which obviously helps. He was also better at drawing fouls, due to his much more physical style of play.
Both were number one overall picks in their respective draft classes, but Webber had some ridiculous hype surrounding him since high school which he never really lived up to (in large part because of bad attitude), while Brand was one of the least hyped number 1 picks in my memory.

Pau was a step below Brand as far as peak, and his other Memphis seasons certainly rival Brand's other Clipper seasons, but it's still very close. Gasol's playoff record with the Grizzilies was also embarrassing, going like 0-12 in his first twelve games. I understand being swept by the Spurs in their heyday, but not even winning a game in any of those series? Gasol had some pretty decent teams around him, with good coaching.

Brand has an even bigger edge on offense than JO has on defense. Brand was an excellent defender, JO wasn't a stellar offensive player.

I'd agree with Infamousthat Lakers Pau was basically the same player, just having Kobe really opened up a lot of opportunities for him. Brand has never had a luxury of playing second fiddle to the player of his caliber...Well, he's never had a chance of playing as a second option at all in his career. He always had to carry some pretty bad teams by himself.

Texas Chuck wrote:i guess you never really watched Brand play. He also was an excellent post defender, something Webber had zero interest in doing.

Exactly.

Masigond wrote:Brand made (sort of still makes) up for it with a giant wingspan of 7' 5.5" (his standing reach is 9' 2" - two inches more than Anthony Davis...), combined with great strength and decent athleticism like good footspeed and lateral quickness.

Brand was really good defensive player. Neither Duncan- or Garnett-esque nor like Ben Wallace but a good one who was hurt by the lack of talented teammates for years.

That's all true. Wingspan of a condor.
Brand was also 6'8''-6'9'', probably 6'7' or 6'7'' 1/2 without shoes.

Prime Elton Brand was really the closest impersonation of Karl Malone I've even seen to this day.

My top PF peaks list (other than top 5, which I classified by their career accomplishments, as they seem to be on another level from others). If I had to put them in order as far as their peaks, it would be like: 1. TD/KG, 2. KG/TD, 3. Dirk 4. Malone 5. Barkley 6. Pettit.

Duncan
Garnett
Malone
Dirk
Barkley
Pettit
then probably Rodman, but I'll leave him out of this discussion, because his lack of scoring really makes him hard to compare to others
McAdoo
Hayes
Schayes
McHale/Brand
Gasol
Bosh
Amare
Kemp
Webber
Boozer
Lucas
McGinnis

DeBusschere was an excellent complementary piece, but not really a dominant player (great defender, though).

It's possible that I've forgotten some guys, if so, correct me.

CaliBullsFan wrote:

Masigond wrote:

CaliBullsFan wrote:Brand wasn't good defensively, he got blocks and steals which is good for fantasy but for the most part struggled to guard his position because he was 6'6.

Brand made (sort of still makes) up for it with a giant wingspan of 7' 5.5" (his standing reach is 9' 2" - two inches more than Anthony Davis...), combined with great strength and decent athleticism like good footspeed and lateral quickness.

Brand was really good defensive player. Neither Duncan- or Garnett-esque nor like Ben Wallace but a good one who was hurt by the lack of talented teammates for years.

Brand like Webber was a good fantasy defensive player(blocks and steals) neither of them were 2 way players when they had to carry the load on offense Webber catches more flack for this because he had a lot more potential but Brand was the same way. Webber was a more passable on ball defender though. Brand despite his freak long arms still struggled trying to guard his position.

You're throwing out these statements, "struggled to guard his position," with absolutely no evidence whatsoever.

Brand's wingspan and standing reach are at about the league average for a center, and at his peak he was 250 lbs with a lot of muscle. His defensive RAPM consistently peaks higher than Pau's, who is often a negative on defense even during his best seasons, which is not common for a frontcourt all-star. Webber's best seasons coincide with when we don't have RAPM information (yet...) or that first season of '01 where we only have NPI. He's a very good defender, and this comes from the "eye" test too. That's why I was so bewildered I saw someone insisting Chris Webber (???) was a better defender.

In fact, Brand's defense is so good someone argued him as a Defensive Player of the Year candidate in 2012 ... years after his devastating Achilles injury and his prime. Just think about this: a power forward has a destructive injury, moves down a position to center because of lost quickness, and finds a lot of success on defense. Yet Pau Gasol was "easily" better than him on defense?

By the way, in 2012 Synergy found that Elton Brand was the best post-defender in the league.