RealGM

Who is better all time?

Who was better at their respective peaks?

Who would you start a franchise with? (Assume rookie scale contracts and RFA)

Drexler is better than Pierce, let alone Allen. He's also better than Pippen in my opinion, so you can see that to me, it's not even close here.

Clyde brought A LOT more to the table than Ray. Shuttlesworth is a better shooter and was also better in terms of creating for himself off the dribble, or using screens, in half-court sets, but Drexler was better at literally everything else. Way better playmaker, rebounder and defender.

Clyde is my 4th best SG ever, and Jesus is 7th. The two guys are separated by Gervin and Iverson.

In terms of all-time rankings, Clyde should absolutely be in the top 35, possibly even top 30, while Ray is at the tail end of the top 50/55.

^^What makes Drexler better than Pippen?

I'm with Quotatious. Allen was a transcendent shooter but Drexler excelled in multiple facets of the game.

Drummer Boy wrote:^^What makes Drexler better than Pippen?

They're very, very close, but Drexler's skillset was better suited as a number one option on a team. He was just a better, more consistent scorer than Pippen. The way I see it is - they're equal in terms of rebounding and playmaking, Drexler has the edge as a scorer, and Pippen is better as a defender. You can call it a wash, if you want to. If you were into advanced stats, Drexler has higher career PER, WS/48 and TS%, both in the regular season and the playoffs. Only Pippen's WS/48 is slightly higher in the postseason.
I'm not gonna persist in my claim tho, I'm fine with someone saying that they were equal.

Drexler for all three.

Quotatious wrote:

Drummer Boy wrote:^^What makes Drexler better than Pippen?

They're very, very close, but Drexler's skillset was better suited as a number one option on a team. He was just a better, more consistent scorer than Pippen. The way I see it is - they're equal in terms of rebounding and playmaking, Drexler has the edge as a scorer, and Pippen is better as a defender. You can call it a wash, if you want to. If you were into advanced stats, Drexler has higher career PER, WS/48 and TS%, both in the regular season and the playoffs. Only Pippen's WS/48 is slightly higher in the postseason.
I'm not gonna persist in my claim tho, I'm fine with someone saying that they were equal.

Hm, I don't really see how it is a wash. Drexler does have better numbers, but both guys really are not #1 option material, and they both struggled in the playoffs either way. So while Drexler is a better scorer, it doesn't really explain how that makes up the big difference in their defense. Drexler wasn't an all time great defender, much less the best perimeter one.

HeartBreakKid wrote:Hm, I don't really see how it is a wash.

OK, you have the right to disagree with me.

HeartBreakKid wrote:Drexler does have better numbers, but both guys really are not #1 option material, and they both struggled in the playoffs either way. So while Drexler is a better scorer, it doesn't really explain how that makes up the big difference in their defense. Drexler wasn't an all time great defender, much less the best perimeter one.

Again, we can disagree here, but I think that Drexler was clearly more capable of leading a team by himself than Pippen. He made two NBA finals appearances as a leader of the PTB and one more WCF appearance in '91, losing to the Lakers in 6 games. We'll never know that for sure, but I don't think that Pippen would've been able to accomplish the same things if you replaced Drexler with him, while Drexler and Jordan would've still won 6 titles, possibly also 7th in 1990.

Even when the Glide was past his prime in 1995, his playoff run as the second fiddle to Hakeem is arguably as good as any of Pippen's.

Drexler, while not an all-time great perimeter defender, was still good enough to make a few All-Defensive 2nd Team appearances, especially in the late 80s, and maybe from 1990 to 92. I really think he deserved it (just like Kobe didn't deserve many of his All-D nods). The reason why I mention Kobe here is to prove that these selections are often based on reputation rather than actual performance on the court.

Pippen's edge over Drexler in terms of all-time rankings lies in his accolades and rings, that's pretty clear to me that this is the deciding factor.

Quotatious wrote:
Again, we can disagree here, but I think that Drexler was clearly more capable of leading a team by himself than Pippen. He made two NBA finals appearances as a leader of the PTB and one more WCF appearance in '91, losing to the Lakers in 6 games. We'll never know that for sure, but I don't think that Pippen would've been able to accomplish the same things if you replaced Drexler with him, while Drexler and Jordan would've still won 6 titles, possibly also 7th in 1990.

But that's because the Blazers were very talented. Drexler being the best scorer on the team doesn't mean he actually carried the Blazers. There were series where Porter would outplay Drexler because Drexler kinda stinks in half court offense, which is what the playoffs are about, hence why Drexler's numbers drop.

Clyde Drexler can't carry any team to a title. He might be the best player on a team that can win a title, but that would probably mean the team was stacked. So why does it matter if he is a better #1 option than Pippen? They're both not #1 options.

Drexler, while not an all-time great perimeter defender, was still good enough to make a few All-Defensive 2nd Team appearances, especially in the late 80s, and maybe from 1990 to 92. I really think he deserved it (just like Kobe didn't deserve many of his All-D nods). The reason why I mention Kobe here is to prove that these selections are often based on reputation rather than actual performance on the court.

A few All-D nods isn't really much in the face of the GOAT perimeter defender.

Quotatious wrote:

Drummer Boy wrote:^^What makes Drexler better than Pippen?

They're very, very close, but Drexler's skillset was better suited as a number one option on a team. He was just a better, more consistent scorer than Pippen. The way I see it is - they're equal in terms of rebounding and playmaking, Drexler has the edge as a scorer, and Pippen is better as a defender. You can call it a wash, if you want to. If you were into advanced stats, Drexler has higher career PER, WS/48 and TS%, both in the regular season and the playoffs. Only Pippen's WS/48 is slightly higher in the postseason.
I'm not gonna persist in my claim tho, I'm fine with someone saying that they were equal.

Drexler did not have similar all around skills. He's better at scoring, that's about it.

Drexler did lead his teams to two finals but he had way better teams. Hell, there were playoff series like the 1992 WCF where Drexler wasn't even the best player on his team.

Terry Porter was way better than anyone on the 1994 Bulls. He dominated Stockton in a series. He got them by the Spurs in game 7 in 1990 when he had 36 points and 9 assists. A little help from Rod Strickland's silly turnover too but that's beside the point.

Seriously, look at the playoff numbers for the 1990 Blazers. Drexler doesn't really standout. That team had incredible talent and depth.

And if folks are gonna bring up Pippen pouting on the bench, Drexler certainly wasn't some uber-clutch shot maker himself. That was always one of his weaknesses. He's the biggest reason we didn't see Rockets-Bulls in 1997 when he messed up on the Rockets last play in game 6 by shooting too early.

If you want to question Pippen's leadership based on that play, then let me tell you Drexler was the reason the Blazers fired Mike Schuler and that gave Drexler the rep of a selfish and overrated player. Never mind the fact that Drexler was indeed voted the most overrated player by coaches a few years later in 1994.

Pretty similar to that dirk pierce thread in that this isn't really debatable...

Even at allen's peak where he was a much more versatile player than given credit for, he really wasn't quite on drexler's level.

Ray Ray is a better shooter from anyone on the court. Drexler is better at everything else. Not even close really. Ray vs Ron Harper or Mitch Richmond is a better debate.

Overall, I'd rank Clyde among Ray. Ray was obviously the better shooter, and he was the better ball-handler as well, but I just got the impression that Clyde made an even greater impact. He was among the best passing and rebounding 2 guards ever. Many do forget about Ray's game in Milwaukee and Seattle, though, which is the only thing I'm judging him on. He was not only athletic and a threat to create off the dribble, but he was also a facilitator at times, and that combination with his ability to shoot from as far out as you could possibly want off the dribble. He's also always been a good off the ball player, even before he became the next Reggie in Boston, so he pretty much could do everything you'd want your shooting guard to do. His only weakness was defense, but he played on some teams in Milwaukee and Seattle that were terrible defense with no big men and players like Glenn Robinson and Sam Cassell where defense clearly wasn't stressed at all so that may have had more to do with it. After all, when he got to Boston, he became a respectable defender, who could be pretty impressive at that end at times.

Ray strikes me as an almost ideal realistic 2nd option so I think this is probably closer than many think, but I still have to go with Clyde. Despite the fact that I think Clyde benefited from the fast-paced game on those late 80's/early 90's Blazers, but he still had that resurgence in Houston in '95 as Hakeem's 2nd option when he played great in the second half and playoffs. Clyde could just find a way to get it done. He retained his athleticism quite well as he got older, but it's still impressive that he remained a very good 2 guard until he retired at 35, a few months from his 36th birthday in 1998. FWIW, here are their stats in their primes.

'88-'92 Drexler: 24.8 ppg, 6.9 rpg, 6 apg, 2.9 TO, 2.2 spg, 49 FG%, 30.7 3P%, 79.6 FT%, 50.6 eFG%, 55.9 TS%
'01-'06 Allen: 23.1 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 4.2 apg, 2.5 TO, 1.3 spg, 45 FG%, 40.4 3P%, 89.5 FT%, 53 eFG%, 58 TS%

Ray's prime lasted a bit longer, and I could have even included '07 when he averaged a career-best 26.4 ppg, though I didn't think it was important since he only played 55 games that year. Considering the pace Clyde's Blazers played at, league scoring numbers and defenses for most of Ray's prime and his efficiency, his scoring numbers are at least as impressive as Clyde's, which isn't too surprising when you look at their skill sets.

As for peaks, I'll still take '92 Clyde over either '05 Ray or '01 Ray. But another thing I'd like to mention about Ray is that while he didn't have many opportunities in his prime, he did have 2 memorable playoff runs. One in '01 when he got Milwaukee to game 7 of the ECF and raised his game from a 22/5/5 regular season on 48/43/89 shooting(56 eFG%/61 TS%) to 25/4/6 on 48/48/92 shooting on 56 eFG%/61 TS%. This was at a time when the league average TS% was slightly under 52%.

Quotatious wrote:They're very, very close, but Drexler's skillset was better suited as a number one option on a team. He was just a better, more consistent scorer than Pippen. The way I see it is - they're equal in terms of rebounding and playmaking, Drexler has the edge as a scorer, and Pippen is better as a defender. You can call it a wash, if you want to.

Drexler was a better scorer, but I honestly don't think either was really suited to being the number one option except on a stacked team like Clyde's early 90's Blazers because neither was elite at create their own shot in a half court game. Both were actually similar in that regard since they were both among the best open court players in the game. They were also both excellent offensive rebounders, solid post players and capable outside shooters, though I'd give Clyde the advantage as a shooter and he was an even better offensive rebounder. His ability on the offensive boards stands out watching him, but I think many would be surprised that he averaged as many as 3.7 offensive boards in '89.

Clyde had a much better run in '92 than '90, but I think some have this misconception that he carried Portland to the finals. In 1990, he was actually Portland's 3rd leading scorer at 16 ppg on 36.8% in the 1st round sweep of the Mavs behind Porter and Kersey who both averaged 20+ and slightly ahead of Buck Williams who averaged 14.7 ppg on 60.7%. He was also 3rd in scoring at 21.1 ppg on 40.3% in the 7 game WCSF victory over the Spurs behind Porter(23.3) and Kersey(21.4) with Buck again averaging 14.7 ppg on 52.1%. He was 2nd in scoring at 20.2 ppg on 43.8% in the 6 game WCF vs the Suns trailing Kersey who averaged 21.5 and a bit ahead of Porter who averaged 18.5.

Clyde did lead Portland in scoring during the finals, but I think many would be surprised that he didn't lead them during any of the first 3 rounds and was 3rd in 2 of them while scoring less than Jerome Kersey in all 3 of the Western Conference rounds. Terry Porter also led them in scoring in the '91 WCSF vs Utah and the '92 WCF vs Utah. People forget how good Porter was, and he was often the guy taking over due to his jump shot. He was arguably better at creating in a half court game than Clyde, though Clyde had advantages due to his size and was obviously the better player.

I'm not saying any of this to necessarily argue with you over Clyde vs Pippen since I think your assessment was very reasonable. I just went into this because I've seen people state a fair amount that Clyde carried Portland, and I think some are misinformed about those teams. I'm not saying you are, this post is just in general.

Both Clyde and Porter had great runs in '92, but '91 was definitely a big missed opportunity. I can't fault Portland for losing to the '90 Pistons or arguably the best Bulls team in '92, but Portland pretty clearly had the most stacked and talented team in '91, but were upset by the Lakers in the WCF. They were definitely the favorite to come out of the West that year.

Anyway, I view Clyde as more of an all around player than a dominant scorer comparable to Jordan, Kobe, prime T-Mac or prime '06-'11 Wade.