RealGM

Thanks to therealbig3 for doing the work and compiling the results (below). I asked the original thread be locked to avoid confusion with any late voting.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1327767


1. Michael Jordan (296 points)
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (250 points)
3. Bill Russell (221 points)
4. Magic Johnson (177 points)
5. Shaquille O'Neal (161 points)
6. Tim Duncan (141 points)
7. Wilt Chamberlain (110 points)
8. LeBron James (100 points)
9. Hakeem Olajuwon (96 points)
10. Larry Bird (69 points)
11. Kobe Bryant (11 points)
12. Kevin Garnett (10 points)
13. Oscar Robertson (7 points)
14. Julius Erving/Jerry West (1 point)

Notes:

-4 voters didn't rank Michael Jordan 1st...those 4 ranked him 2nd

-4 players were on everyone's top 10 list: Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Bill Russell, and Tim Duncan

-The highest rank on any list for all the listed players: Michael Jordan (#1), Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (#1), Bill Russell (#1), Magic Johnson (#2), Shaquille O'Neal (#3), Tim Duncan (#3), Wilt Chamberlain (#3), LeBron James (#3), Hakeem Olajuwon (#4), Larry Bird (#5), Kobe Bryant (#9), Kevin Garnett (#7), Oscar Robertson (#7), Julius Erving (#10), Jerry West (#10)

Little surprised to see Bird at 10, Hakeem at 9 and Kobe at 11.

Look at the enormous balls on Texas Chuck, fpliii, Point Forward, and myself. We ride together, we get banned for countercultural ideas together — champion centers for life.

In all seriousness, I'm very surprised I was the only one who voted for KAJ. He had the GOAT career, has a GOAT peak, has GOAT longevity, and has the longest true prime of anybody ever. Won in many situations, eras, roles, etc. Faced more all-time great centers than anybody in history. Center who hits his free throws. Great defensive player. Unstoppable offensive player. Smart. Tremendous passer at the C position. Portable. What more could you want?

Not that MJ or Russell or a host of others are bad choices, but just 1 vote for KAJ?

ronnymac2 wrote:Look at the enormous balls on Texas Chuck, fpliii, Point Forward, and myself. We ride together, we get banned for countercultural ideas together — champion centers for life.

In all seriousness, I'm very surprised I was the only one who voted for KAJ. He had the GOAT career, has a GOAT peak, has GOAT longevity, and has the longest true prime of anybody ever. Won in many situations, eras, roles, etc. Faced more all-time great centers than anybody in history. Center who hits his free throws. Great defensive player. Unstoppable offensive player. Smart. Tremendous passer at the C position. Portable. What more could you want?

Not that MJ or Russell or a host of others are bad choices, but just 1 vote for KAJ?

I think the debates for Russell and KAJ over MJ will be very interesting in the top 100 project. I wasn't here for the last one so I don't know if Jordan got that spot relatively unanimously or not. Hope you're ready to bring your A game to argue for KAJ. I'm not as set on Jordan as the GOAT as most so you can convince at least one person.

I am amazed that

1.) Magic gets 177 points and Bird 69 (and Oscar 7) when Bird was considered by most everyone to be better than Magic during most of their career. And someone voted Magic the #2 player of all-time

2.) That Shaq finished ahead of Wilt when virtually no one thought so when Shaq was playing

3.) Kevin Garnett finished ahead of Oscar Roberston. Oscar was 2nd in voting for AP player of the century in 1999, and no one put him higher than 7.

It looks like a lot of revisionist history has gone on the last few years on this board.

DQuinn1575 wrote:I am amazed that

1.) Magic gets 177 points and Bird 69 (and Oscar 7) when Bird was considered by most everyone to be better than Magic during most of their career. And someone voted Magic the #2 player of all-time

True but Bird was always overrated a bit just like Kobe. I think people underrated Magic because until 84 it was seen as Kareem's team.

2.) That Shaq finished ahead of Wilt when virtually no one thought so when Shaq was playing

Now this is crazy everyone thought Shaq was a top 4/5 big ever and at least equal to Wilt. Then you look at their careers and Shaq clearly comes ahead.

3.) Kevin Garnett finished ahead of Oscar Roberston. Oscar was 2nd in voting for AP player of the century in 1999, and no one put him higher than 7.

It looks like a lot of revisionist history has gone on the last few years on this board.

Agreed. KG over Oscar is a travesty. Other than that Lebron over Hakeem surprised me too.

My biggest surprise was Hakeem being as low as #9. Wilt took a predictable fall.

Laimbeer wrote:My biggest surprise was Hakeem being as low as #9. Wilt took a predictable fall.

What about Kobe not being higher than 9 on more than one list Is this what the hipster mentality has come to?

ardee wrote:

Laimbeer wrote:My biggest surprise was Hakeem being as low as #9. Wilt took a predictable fall.

What about Kobe not being higher than 9 on more than one list Is this what the hipster mentality has come to?

Can say you didn't see it coming though. Many on this board put KG over Kobe.

ardee wrote:

Laimbeer wrote:My biggest surprise was Hakeem being as low as #9. Wilt took a predictable fall.

What about Kobe not being higher than 9 on more than one list Is this what the hipster mentality has come to?

Poll the GB and Kobe is probably a top 6 GOAT there . He would be comfortably ahead of Duncan/LeBron there. Seriously though, I expected him to be more in the 8-10 range. A little surprising to see Hakeem there instead of Kobe and Bird at 10.

Yeah, i'm a little suprised Bird was so low. I wouldn't be suprised if he falls out of people's top 10 altogether within a few years. I understand LBj has the higher peak than Bird but i think Bird should still have the edge in rankings for now.

But... the immortal 6...

Basketballefan wrote:Yeah, i'm a little suprised Bird was so low.

I was about to say something else, but then I saw you've only been a registered member for eight months, so that would explain it. But it's been obvious from the posts on this subforum that Bird has dropped. I'll have to find the thread that initially began the change.

Sry peeps, but that's a flat whiff on Bird.

DQuinn1575 wrote:I am amazed that

1.) Magic gets 177 points and Bird 69 (and Oscar 7) when Bird was considered by most everyone to be better than Magic during most of their career. And someone voted Magic the #2 player of all-time

2.) That Shaq finished ahead of Wilt when virtually no one thought so when Shaq was playing

3.) Kevin Garnett finished ahead of Oscar Roberston. Oscar was 2nd in voting for AP player of the century in 1999, and no one put him higher than 7.

It looks like a lot of revisionist history has gone on the last few years on this board.

Agreed on Oscar vs. KG. I've always thought KG was a bit overrated on this forum. Bird should be a bit higher. And I think Shaq benefitted from relatively weak competition at the pivot during his playing days more than any other all-time center.

I can't let this thread continue without at least honorably mentioning Moses Malone.

asindc wrote:

DQuinn1575 wrote:I am amazed that

1.) Magic gets 177 points and Bird 69 (and Oscar 7) when Bird was considered by most everyone to be better than Magic during most of their career. And someone voted Magic the #2 player of all-time

2.) That Shaq finished ahead of Wilt when virtually no one thought so when Shaq was playing

3.) Kevin Garnett finished ahead of Oscar Roberston. Oscar was 2nd in voting for AP player of the century in 1999, and no one put him higher than 7.

It looks like a lot of revisionist history has gone on the last few years on this board.

Agreed on Oscar vs. KG. I've always thought KG was a bit overrated on this forum. Bird should be a bit higher. And I think Shaq benefitted from relatively weak competition at the pivot during his playing days more than any other all-time center.

I can't let this thread continue without at least honorably mentioning Moses Malone.

Moses is easily a top 15 player imo. A lot of this Forum would probably take both Kg and Dirk over him and i would disagree.

Just to add about the KG vs Oscar thing...

KG was ranked 13th in the 2011 top 100 list and was still ahead of Oscar as well. So I don't think the KG over Oscar vote should be all that shocking, it seems to be pretty consistent with what seems to be the general feeling of the board for a while now.

Just to make a really quick argument for KG that will no doubt be expanded on when the new top 100 list gets underway, I think KG, based on all the data we have on him, is a better player than Oscar because of his two-way impact. The only thing he really lacked was a dominant back to the basket game...but it's not like the guy couldn't score. He was an efficient 20+ ppg scorer for 9 straight years, even though he didn't really have much help for the most part. He was also an excellent passing and ball handling big man, with enough ability to even play PG when his team was desperate. On top of that, he's one of the GOAT defensive players.

I just think a player like that is better than Oscar, who was an offensive dynamo, a poor man's Magic Johnson, but whose reputation is a little overrated because of huge volume stats that were more a result of how ball-dominant he was and how many possessions he had to work with. Most players' stats were greatly inflated in the 60s.

Garnett's impact as a two-way big man who can basically do anything you need him to gives him the edge over Oscar for me.

Just my 2 cents on that.

I think anyone seeing that big of a gap between Magic & Bird needs to check themselves.

Doctor MJ wrote:I think anyone seeing that big of a gap between Magic & Bird needs to check themselves.

I'm not sure I really understand this argument. I'm sure a lot of people feel the same way when it comes to Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain, and you obviously don't see them as being all that close from an all-time perspective. Maybe it's the same way with these two?

From my perspective, Bird individually struggled plenty of times in the playoffs...he wasn't a very efficient playoff scorer himself until 1984, and from that point onwards, he has 3 dominant playoff runs: 1984, 1986, and 1987. 1985 and 1988 are basically ruined by injury. He's not really all that relevant of a player after that, aside from a solid 1990 campaign.

Obviously, Bird's game was a whole lot more than just scoring points, but in comparison to Magic...I don't really see him individually struggling all that much in the playoffs during his prime.

I mean, Magic's prime probably begins in 1984, same as Bird's. Bird entered the league as the better player, and was probably better from 1980-1983. But since both of these guys are primarily offensive players, let's just look at some of the numbers they were putting up in the playoffs, during that time.

1980-1983 playoffs, Magic Johnson, per 36 (48 games): 16/9/9, 58% TS, 117 ORating, 21.4 PER

1980-1983 playoffs, Larry Bird, per 36 (44 games): 18/11/5, 51% TS, 105 ORating, 19.9 PER

That's a pretty huge difference in offensive efficiency in the playoffs. And their raw production probably favors Magic, if anything.


1984-1988 playoffs, Magic Johnson, per 36 (96 games): 18/6/13, 60% TS, 125 ORating, 23.7 PER

1984-1988 playoffs, Larry Bird, per 36 (101 games): 22/8/6, 58% TS, 118 ORating, 22.7 PER

Much closer, but Magic still owns a clear edge in offensive efficiency. And PER notoriously underrates PGs like Magic, and tends to overrate volume scorers like Bird...and yet Magic still posts the superior playoff PER.

After that, like I said, Bird has a solid year in 1990, but his career is pretty much over other than that. Magic still posts 3 GREAT years from 89-91, before he retires.

1989-1991 playoffs, Magic Johnson, per 36 (42 games): 19/6/11, 60% TS, 122 ORating, 23.4 PER

So that's probably why Magic has developed a clear separation from Bird in a lot of all-time rankings...playoff consistency. The one major counter-argument to that point, however, would be playoff competition...it's no secret that the East was a lot tougher than the West at this time.

Average RS DRating of opponents, 1980-1983 playoffs, Magic Johnson: -2.2
Average RS DRating of opponents, 1980-1983 playoffs, Larry Bird: -2.3

Average RS DRating of opponents, 1984-1988 playoffs, Magic Johnson: -0.2
Average RS DRating of opponents, 1984-1988 playoffs, Larry Bird: -1.5


So Bird did play tougher defenses during both of their primes (84-88), which I guess means that you can make a reasonable argument that it balances the offensive impact between the two during that time...but from 1980-1983, Magic and Bird faced similar defenses, and Magic was CLEARLY more effective than Bird offensively over that stretch.

So even before we get to post-1988, which Magic handily wins, I already have Magic ahead of Bird due to superior individual playoff performances by Magic...add another 3 years of near GOAT-level play by Magic from 1989-1991, and yeah, I can certainly see Magic separating himself to the point where you can start sliding in other great players between them, such as Duncan, Shaq, LeBron, Wilt, and Hakeem.

PaulieWal wrote:Poll the GB and Kobe is probably a top 6 GOAT there

I was so curious to find out that I've actually started the same thread on the GB. Hope it won't get locked, lol.