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Baller2014 wrote:I was thinking about these two RE: the top 100 project:

The case for Dr J

Spoiler:

It’s odd that there has not been more traction for Dr J to this point. He has probably the highest peak of any remaining player, tonnes of longevity, great intangibles and could play both ends of the floor. The only real argument against him is that the ABA doesn’t count, and that’s an absurd argument which I’ll cover.

To begin with, let’s look at a post from Truelafan I found while searching realgm on this very subject:

Julius Erving has a higher peak. Kobe Bryant is a great player. He had had some amazing years. He has never had a year like Julius Erving had in 1976, where Doc led his team in...well, everything. He averaged 29.3 ppg, 11.0 rpg, 5.0 apg, 2.5 steals and almost 2 blocks per game. The kicker is that he played [better in the postseason and led a pretty nondescript team to a title. In the finals, he had Bobby Jones defending him. Bobby Jones has a legitimate claim to being one of the 5 best defensive players of all time. He was at his peak when he went up against Julius Erving in 1976. Erving dismantled him. Erving's 1976 season is one of the all time dominant seasons in every way. Kobe has never had a year like that. He's had some that were close...but so has Erving. So you kind of have to go with Erving's peak.

How much “better” did Dr J play in the playoffs? The guy was putting up 35-13-5-2-2 on a FG% of 53.3%. Ridiculous.
Dr MJ made this post on the #7 thread RE: Dr J:

It was me talking about Erving, and I'll confirm: There's no good reason at all to rate the NBA as clearly ahead of the ABA right before the merger. 5 years earlier sure, but the reason the merger happen had everything to do with the fact that the ABA kept gaining and gaining. By the end the ABA was winning more of the cross-league games than the NBA, and as I mentioned even the NBA's battlecry of "we played both sides of the ball" looks silly when you see how the ABA teams did when they came over and played with NBA rules.

Re: Declining numbers when he switched over. There were injuries yes, and there was a general decline that seems to me to come from a player whose game peaked more closely with his athleticism than your average all-timer - which says something about how special his athleticism was, and also says something about his BBIQ being good but not genius

The big thing though is simply that he was put onto another team with the worst fit imaginable. Philly's star George McGinnis was the knock off version of Erving: Both guys did it all, and both were used to their entire team being built around them in a unipolar manner. It was kind of like LeBron coming to Miami if you were to imagine Wade as a guy with no intention of sacrificing for build a great team around the new superior talent, except that the gap between LeBron & Wade as first option was smaller than the gap between Erving & McGinnis.

So Erving goes there and does what's asked of him, which is quite a bit less than he's used to because the team is essentially alternating between he and McGinnis. Over time, as the 76ers realized this just wasn't good enough, McGinnis got phased down and then traded, and so by the time we get to the '80s Erving's basically doing what you can expect him to do in that time period - which is very impressive, but it's not what he looked like in his peak.

If the New York Nets had been able to come over to the NBA intact, there's every reason to believe that the progression of Erving's stats from '76 to '80 would have been much more of a straight line, and he'd have been been doing his thing leading what would have been a strong contender without anyone seeing his teammates as particularly strong. Good chance that if this happened, Erving's something of a GOAT candidate.

Nor did Dr J fade off in the way some assert:

colts18 wrote:For those saying that Dr. J declined in the NBA.

Per 100 possession numbers:
74-76 (ABA): 32-13-6, 5.1 stl/blk
77-79 (NBA): 28-10-5, 4.0 stl/blk
80-82 (NBA): 34-10-6. 5.2 stl/blk

His rebounding numbers dropped off which can be explained by the ABA being a smaller league, but Dr. J's numbers from 80-82 are very comparable to his 74-76 ABA peak. Even his steals and blocks, an indicator of athleticism, went up in the NBA despite the fact that he was age 29-31 in that span compared to 23-25 from 74-76.

So Dr J actually has the highest peak left, and great longevity, the guy was still an MVP candidate into the early 80’s, and didn’t drop off the map right after that either. And of course he was putting up 32-12-4-3-2 on 50% shooting back in 1973 at age 22. Dr J was simply a more talented individual than Kobe- he was bigger, stronger, and more athletic. He had huge hands that let him palm the ball to do ridiculous stuff, which combined with his awesome body control made him near unstoppable going to the basket. He was a fantastic defender as well, with natural talents like size, strength and length that Kobe simply lacked (not to mention effort). Check out this video showcasing some of Erving’s ridiculous body control and athleticism, all of which he makes look effortless:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DebtVv87jDc[/youtube]

Does the ABA “Count”?

Spoiler:

In addition to the usual arguments about exhibitions games and players who switched in and out of the ABA, let's look at the most compelling argument; the 2 teams whose rosters changed the least from ABA to NBA. The first is one I know well, my own Spurs.

In the 3 years prior to the merger the Spurs had a win% of 53.6%, 60.7% and 59.5%. In the first 3 years in the NBA the Spurs had a win% of 53.7%, 63.4% and 58.5%. They actually did better in the NBA. Some people criticise their SRS dropping in 1977, but that's easily explainable; James Silas, an all-aba 1st teamer in 1976, suffered a catastrophic injury (from which he never fully recovered) and played only 22 games in 1977. He barely played in 78 either. Despite that, the Spurs SRS kicked it back up to ABA levels in 1978, and by 1979 (when Silas returned at a reduced capacity) they recorded a higher SRS than they had ever recorded in their history and tragically lost in the conference finals (if they'd won, they were the likely champs that year). So with a healthy Silas the Spurs wouldn't have just been breaking even with their ABA results leading into the merger, they'd have been significantly outperforming them.

Then look at the Nuggets. Despite losing some players they were still an awesome NBA team. Not quite as good as they'd been in the ABA, that was a combination of a number of factors (and not every team is going to transition as smoothly as the Spurs), but they were still an awesome team. Just like the Spurs, critics mention that the Nuggets SRS dropped in 1977, and it did drop marginally, but what they don't seem to know is that the Nuggets actually had the 2nd highest SRS in a 22 team NBA in 1977. The team with the best SRS? The one who beat them, and who won the championship that year. Lots of ABA players showed much the same thing on an individual level. Sure, Dr J's stats went down on arriving to the NBA, but that was a combination of both his injuries and the team he was on. There were three 30 pt scorers and one 20 point scorer. That wasn't going to work, so the coach said they'd all have to take less shots to make it work, and it almost did, the 76ers were consistently ripping it up despite the presence of way too many gunners, on their talent alone.

In some ways the ABA was a tougher league. There were plenty of weak teams in the NBA by 1976, but in the ABA in 1976 there was exactly one weak team (the Squires). The other 5/6ths of the time you played either one of 3 teams who’d have been NBA contenders, or 2 other teams that would have made the NBA playoffs that year probably. The two titles Dr J carried his team to, especially in 1976, were won in an league that was as strong as the NBA.

The case against Kobe

Kobe’s impact is lower than guys currently being discussed

Spoiler:

Kobe was never the best player in the league in any year…and yet people here want to vote him in the top 15 of all-time. Just think about that for a sec…nor is that my opinion, that’s also the opinion of the RPOY project on realgm (with Laker fans making up one of the largest voter groups).

As I've been elaborating on throughout the top 100 project, the best way to tell how much a guy can impact a team is often to look at how he does with bad team mates, because it removes all the variables of how much star X really did. All the top 10-15 type guys we're talking about did that, heck even some non-top 15 type guys like Nash and Walton and Dwight have shown that sort of impact. Kobe never did that. He not only never did that, but he demonstrated pretty conclusively he couldn't do it. From 99-04 the Lakers record when Shaq was hurt, but Kobe played, was 23-26 (a 38 win pace). Shaq led the same support cast his fans will call "bad" to a 30-10 record over this period (good for a 61 win pace). In 05-07 without Shaq, Kobe's teams were never contenders, winning between 34 and 45 wins. In 05 Kobe's team wasn't that bad, he had an all-star quality player in Odom, a very good player in young Caron Butler, and several decent role players to round out the starting line-up (Mihm, who was a solid role playing big before his injuries, and Atkins, who was a starter on a 50 win team the following season). Nor can you blame the 05 season on Kobe's injuries (they were 28-38 in games Kobe played), or Odom's (because Odom was only rested once the Lakers knew the playoffs was out of sight; they had an unbelievably tough schedule leading into the playoffs, mostly against 50 win teams).

The 06 and 07 teams were worse, but were they really worse than the sorts of bad teams Dr J had in 1976, or Walton in 77, or Oscar’s Royals, or Rick Barry’s 1975 title team? I doubt it. Odom would easily have been the 2nd best player on most of those teams. In the 2008 season the record without Bynum or Pau was also a mediocre 9-7. Basically Kobe couldn't get anywhere with bad teams. You know who could? The guys he's being compared to. I won’t even get started on what advanced stats say about Kobe (especially in regards to his horribly overrated D). There are multiple years where the Lakers really underachieved if Kobe is the player he’s being made out to be; 03, 04, 05-07, 08, 11, and of course 2013, for which Kobe has to shoulder his share of the blame too.

People are trying to give props to Kobe for his volume scoring, but that makes little sense. Dantley was probably a better scorer, and nobody is seriously considering him for a long while. We should be less interested in volume, and more interested in impact.

So right off the bat Kobe’s at a disadvantage with most of the guys he’s being compared to. But it gets worse because of the next thing…

Kobe’s horrible intangibles- bad team mate, bad leader

Spoiler:

This post is from a recent thread:

It's basically because Kobe has a pretty horrible record as a team mate, perhaps one of the worst of all-time for any star, and in some ways it's worse than ever. Why? Because in the old days you could rely on Kobe to play like a star at least, but now with the injuries and his age? You're basically stuck in a soap opera about whose team it is, and how Kobe gets to close his career. It wasn't fun, just ask Dwight Howard. I suspect that's why we're seeing so much Kobe twitter activity all of a sudden, taking pot shots at people (like the ridiculous tweet where he claimed the Hornets snubbed him in the draft, when in fact it was the exact opposite way around). I won't focus on Kobe's decisions to force his way to the Lakers, but here are some tidbits from Kobe's career.

Getting into the NBA Kobe had grand dreams about how his career would pan out, and was not shy about telling his team mates how great he would become. This led to obvious tension in the team, most particularly with Shaq:
http://blogs.mercurynews.com/kawakami/2 ... biography/

“It pained me to see how much of a struggle it was for them me,” West writes, “how unwilling Kobe was to defer to Shaq in any way.”

Phil Jackson writes how West first alerted him to the issue when West called him into his office and confided that Kobe had come to talk to Jerry, to ask him for advice. What advice did Kobe want from one of the Laker greats?

Kobe had asked him how he had averaged 30-plus points a game when his team mate, Elgin Baylor, was also scoring 30-plus points per game.

To try and teach Kobe what it meant to be part of a team, Phil arranged an introduction between Kobe and his former student, Michael Jordan, who had to learn to sacrifice for the team. It didn't go the way Phil hoped:

I orchestrated a meeting between the two stars, thinking that Michael might help shift Kobe's attitude toward selfless teamwork. After they shook hands, the first words out of Kobe's mouth were "You know I can kick your ass one on one."

Phil goes on to say how he admired Kobe, but that:

Kobe had yet to reach out to his teammates to try to get to know them. Instead of spending time with them after games, he usually went back to his hotel room

.
Later in Phil's first season he pulled the team together so they could watch some game tape. He pointed out that the triangle couldn't work with selfish play, and opened the floor to the team:

Shaq spoke up... "I think Kobe is playing too selfishly for us to win". That got everyone fired up. Some of the players nodded in support of Shaq, including Rick Fox, who said, "How many times have we been through this?" No one in that room came to Kobe's defense... As Rick Fox put it, "Kobe's me-first attitude was a landmine that was about to explode. We all knew somebody had to step on it, but nobody wanted to. So Phil did it, and we all walk a lot more freely now

Things got so bad that Phil wrote:

One night that week I had a dream about spanking Kobe and giving Shaq a smack.

Even after winning a ring, Kobe's attitude hadn't settled much, in fact Phil worried each year that it got worse:

One player whose agenda wasn't hard to figure out was Kobe Bryant...Kobe was building his resume at the expense of the rest of the team. Early in the season I'd asked him to keep playing the way he had the year before, running the offense through Shaq and sticking with the system until the final minutes of the game, Kobe responded by nearly doubling the number of shots he took each game and adapting an erratic style of passing- or more often, not passing- that infuriated his teammates, especially Shaq. Kobe's selfishness and unpredictability gave the other players a sinking feeling that he didn't trust them anymore, which further eroded team harmony...

The previous year Kobe had embraced the triangle offence. He couldn't wait to test drive the system that had turned Michael and the Bulls into champions. But at the start of this season he told me he thought the offense was boring and too simple, and it prevented him from displaying his gifts. I understood, but I told him we needed to win the most games with the fewest mishaps, including injuries and end of season fatigue. I don't think he bought it... he wasn't interested in becoming Shaq's Pippen. He wanted to create shots for himself....

In his mind he had it all figured out. His goal was to become the greatest basketball player of all time. He was certain he knew what he had to do to get there. Why should he listen to anybody else? If he followed my advice and cut back his scoring, he'd fall short of his ultimate goal. How was I going to get through to this kid?

To try and stop Shaq and Kobe feuding Phil encouraged them to become friends off the court, but:

Kobe balked at the idea of getting too close to Shaq and was appalled by the big guy's attempts to turn him into his "little brother". As Kobe explained, they came from different cultures and had little in common. Shaq was an army brat from the South by way of Newark, New Jersey, and Kobe was the worldly son of a former NBA player from Philly by way of Italy.

Later that season, after Shaq made a (private) trade demand to Buss, Kobe responded by giving a (public) interview to Rich Bucher, where he ripped into Shaq for his free throw shooting, and remarked:

"Turn my game down? I need to turn it up. I've improved. How are you going to bottle me up? I'd be better off playing somewhere else."

Things didn't get easier from there:

During the next few weeks, Shaq and Kobe took their soap opera to absurd extremes. If Kobe noticed Shaq sliding up to one reporter, he'd refuse to talk to him or her, then promise an exclusive to someone else. And if Shaq saw that Kobe was getting his feet taped by one trainer, he'd insist on having his feet taped by another trainer. And so it went...

Brian Shaw, who had played with O'Neal in Orlando, said it reminded him of the clash between Shaq and rising start Penny Hardaway, except that Penny was ok playing Robin to Shaq's Batman, and Kobe wasn't.

Later that season, while discussing the subject with reporter Rick Telander, Phil mentioned that he'd heard a rumour about how Kobe would sabotage his HS team in games early on, so he could help them make a dramatic comeback. When this was published Kobe's mature response was to have his lawyer threaten to sue Phil.

The Lakers won a 3-peat anyway, but it wasn't enough. Rather than win, Kobe was worried about how he was perceived during these wins. He was, in his own words, sick of being Robin.

early signs indicated that Kobe wanted to move to another team where he could be the main man and not have to compete with Shaq for that honor. The team he seemed most interested in was our local rival, the Clippers. Early in the season he had made an awkward attempt to discuss his future with Clippers coach Mike Dunleavy- a violation of NBA rules. To his credit, Mike didn't let the conversation get very far.

This wasn't the last time Kobe would demand a trade in public. As soon as the going got tough in LA he tried to force his way to Chicago.

After another (private) team fight in the 2004 season Kobe responded by going public with Jim Gray, again ripping on Shaq, for being out of shape, and for his "childlike selfishness and jealousy". Charming.

For years Phil had tried to get through to Kobe, but despite 3 titles in 4 years, things just seemed to get worse. Phil wanted Kobe traded

"I can't coach Kobe...He won't listen to anyone. I can't get through to him".

A few days later Phil details how Kobe got him fired:

Dr Buss, who worried that his young star might jump to another team, visited Kobe in Newport Beach, and tried to persuade him to remain with the Lakers... shortly thereafter Kobe told Derek Fisher [about Jackson] "Your man's not coming back next year."... I felt completely blindsided... Kobe seemed to be revelling in it.

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when asked by the media if Phil's departure affected his free agency Kobe told reporters "I don't care". This is while Phil was trying to coach the team to a championship. The 2004 defeat of course was largely Kobe's fault. Rather than pass to Shaq, who was playing outstandingly, Kobe gunned it and shot horribly. The team lost, but Kobe seemed to prefer losing "his way" than winning another title as Shaq's Robin. He wanted to be the finals MVP this time, and taking as many shots as he felt he needed to in order to do that. After the loss Rick Fox summed it up:

"A team always beats a group of individuals... we picked a poor time to be a group of individuals"

Jackson was fired right after, and Shaq was moved to placate Kobe, who signed immediately afterwards. Sure, Magic got his coach fired once too, but at least that turned out to be the right move. Kobe wasn't doing this for the right reasons, indeed he had to swallow his pride and agree for Phil to come back after things fell apart without him. Forcing the team to move Shaq in a rush, so he would agree to re-sign, almost certainly hurt the Lakers in their quest to get fair value back (and indeed, keeping Shaq would have been more sensible).

Kobe had games where he would refuse to shoot to make "a point", often hurting the team as the opposing team reacted accordingly.

During the final week of the season, Kobe, who had never been shy about shooting, took just one shot in the first half of a game against Sacramento, allowing the Kings to take a 19-point lead and win handily. The media concluded that Kobe had intentionally tanked the game to improve his negotiating position with Dr Buss. Kobe said he was just doing what the coaches had asked him to do- share the ball- but nobody bought it. One player, speaking anonymously, told the LA Times... "I don't know how we can forgive him."

This led to an ugly scene at practise the next day. Kobe burst into the training facility in a rage and polled every player, one by one, trying to find out who was responsible for the quote. It was a wrenchingly painful episode.

Nor was this sort of thing confined to minor games. Who could forget game 7 v.s the Suns where Kobe responded to media criticism that he shot to much by refusing to shoot. Seriously?
http://www.travelgolf.com/blogs/chris.b ... out_the_mo

The problem with Kobe's attitude is it has a very real effect on the team's on the court performance.

And who could forget Kobe's horrible leadership in regards to Dwight Howard, who was reportedly hesitant to come to LA in the first place after Kobe's pitch to him was for him to come "be my Tyson Chandler". The two clearly had issues during the season, much of it revolving around Dwight feeling that Kobe was shooting too much. Kobe's pitch for Dwight to stay at his meeting with the Lakers was not much better. After promising to "teach Dwight how to win" Kobe was asked by Dwight:

Was this going to be his last year? "No," replied Kobe. "I'm planning to be around for three of four more years."

At that point, according to others in the room, Dwight's eyes went blank and he drifted away. In his mind the game was over.

Can anyone think of another top 15 player who other star players and coaches reacted thusly to? I sure can't, and it hurts him a lot.

Baller2014 wrote:Regular season offensive impact. Sure, Kobe is a better ballhandler than Karl Malone. So is Dominique Wilkins or Jason Kidd, but that doesn’t make them better offensive players. Karl Malone’s awesome RS offensive performances just have to be ahead of Kobe. Offensive impact is not about balancing different artificial skill sets like shooting v.s dribbling, it’s about impact on that end of the court. Shaq was a worse dribbling and passer than Kobe, but he was clearly a more impactful offensive player.

Jaivl wrote:

Baller2014 wrote:Regular season offensive impact. Sure, Kobe is a better ballhandler than Karl Malone. So is Dominique Wilkins or Jason Kidd, but that doesn’t make them better offensive players. Karl Malone’s awesome RS offensive performances just have to be ahead of Kobe. Offensive impact is not about balancing different artificial skill sets like shooting v.s dribbling, it’s about impact on that end of the court. Shaq was a worse dribbling and passer than Kobe, but he was clearly a more impactful offensive player.

Shaq was such a dominant inside presence that makes for his lack of other offensive atributes. Karl is not. Kobe is better than him at everything on the offensive part of the game (well, not everything, Malone is obviously a better offensive rebounder, screen setter and roll man, but I think you all understand my point).

colts18 wrote:Oscar got voted in. I still don't see how he was better than Nash. During their primes, Nash was a better offensive player, by a decent margin too. I don't think Oscar's slight defensive lead plus his rebounding is enough to overcome that gap. Nash is top 5 offensive player with a case for GOAT. I don't see Oscar having a case for GOAT offensive player.

Clyde Frazier wrote:
Oscar has already been voted in, and I know we don't have a ton of information on him defensively, but I don't see how claiming he only had a "slight defensive lead" over nash is accurate. The suns defensively were merely average to slightly below average during nash's prime, but he's always been a weak defender. I don't think there's any question about that.

colts18 wrote:

Clyde Frazier wrote:
Oscar has already been voted in, and I know we don't have a ton of information on him defensively, but I don't see how claiming he only had a "slight defensive lead" over nash is accurate. The suns defensively were merely average to slightly below average during nash's prime, but he's always been a weak defender. I don't think there's any question about that.

Oscar's teams were consistently among the worst defensively of that era. Nash's teams were average defensively during his peak years (05-07)

DQuinn1575 wrote:I'm leaning real far towards Kobe

For a 5 year prime I think only Moses and Mikan are clearly ahead

Kobe far surpasses them in longevity. There only Karl malone probably has an edge

Five rings - here only Mikan is in the paragraph. Kobe had 30% usage in 2 of his shaq playoff years

I'll wait on my official vote - but I'm definitely leaning one way



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tsherkin wrote:When it comes to the RS, this clearly isn't true. Malone was a high-volume, high-efficiency scorer who rates out better pretty well across the board, and whose team success as far as team offense goes aligns well with that fact.

Kobe's advantage is in the PS, but in the RS, he looks noticeably less effective.

Baller2014 wrote:

DQuinn1575 wrote:I'm leaning real far towards Kobe

For a 5 year prime I think only Moses and Mikan are clearly ahead

Kobe far surpasses them in longevity. There only Karl malone probably has an edge

Five rings - here only Mikan is in the paragraph. Kobe had 30% usage in 2 of his shaq playoff years

I'll wait on my official vote - but I'm definitely leaning one way



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What about Dr J?

DQuinn1575 wrote:

Baller2014 wrote:

DQuinn1575 wrote:I'm leaning real far towards Kobe

For a 5 year prime I think only Moses and Mikan are clearly ahead

Kobe far surpasses them in longevity. There only Karl malone probably has an edge

Five rings - here only Mikan is in the paragraph. Kobe had 30% usage in 2 of his shaq playoff years

I'll wait on my official vote - but I'm definitely leaning one way



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What about Dr J?

Make a case doc was better and don't use the fact that doc is (deservedly) probably the most beloved player in the top 100 and kobe an awful person except when he plays for team USA




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Baller2014 wrote:I think the advantage Karl Malone got from Stockton is no greater than the advantage Kobe got from; a GOAT coach candidate, Shaq creating open space, very good team mates overall, and most importantly the rule changes from 05 onwards (I don't think it's a coincidence his best TS% run comes right after that happens, from 06-10). RS stats suggest a clear offensive advantage to Malone.

tsherkin wrote:
Team success is pretty close. Erving got more MVP love. He was a fantastic scorer in his own right, a better rebounder and defender... The argument is there.

The counterargument here is "what's the pro Kobe argument without saying ringzzzzz?"