Kevin Garnett was better than Tim Duncan

[COM_GTFO]

Pretty much everyone seems to disagree with this opinion, but hear me out.

First off, two things. 1) Duncan has aged a lot more gracefully (which probably has to do with KG coming into the NBA out of HS and Minny running him into the ground) and in terms of longevity, there's no comparison. 2) Duncan has by far had the better career, so deserves to be ranked higher than KG all-time, my point is purely about ability at their very best.

1. KG was an incredible passer, and as a playmaker for teammates, he was better than Duncan.

2. KG was a superior athlete to Duncan - not that that really matters, but it's still a plus.

3. Prime KG was a technically superior player to Duncan. In addition to his superior passing & superior FT% From 2000 to 2009, KG shot 47% on 10-16ft jumpers and 44% on 16 - 24ft jumpers. Duncan in the same period shot 40.5% and 39.6% from the same zones. A huge difference that isn't reflected in their relatively similar FG%s.

4. As rebounders they're pretty much even - prime KG's Rebounding % is virtually the same as prime Duncan's.

5. Defensively, this is where people underrate KG by assuming Duncan was better because of his lower DRtg & higher defensive win shares. The Spurs were INCREDIBLE defensively during Duncan's prime, and while obviously Duncan was the centerpiece of that, a lot of it had to do with Pop & the team as well, whether it was Robinson or Bowen, the Spurs were always a great defensive unit. San Antonio were just suffocating defensively. KG's Wolves by comparison were terrible, they were poorly coached and were never as disciplined as SA. For those who think "well, that proves Duncan's better, he made his team better", that doesn't really work, because KG proved in his first year in Boston just how good he could make a team if his teammates/coach were up to it.

6. Head-to-head, prime KG OUTPLAYED prime Duncan. From the calendar year 2002 to 2007, when both were clearly at their very best, in 18 games:

Duncan: 21.1 PPG/10.6 RPG/3.6 APG/0.7 SPG/1.9 BPG in 37.1 MPG on 44% shooting - 6% below normal average
KG: 20.8 PPG/12 RPG/5.0 APG/1.0 SPG/2.0 BPG in 38.3 MPG on 47% shooting - 2% below normal average

It seems obvious to me that, overall, KG won the individual matchup between him and Duncan despite always being on the worse team.

7. KG's statistical peak was just better than Duncan's:

KG's best 4-year period (2002-06): PER: 27.7, Rebounding %: 19.7, TS%: 56.3, WS/48: 0.247
Duncan's best 4-year period (2001-05): PER: 27.0, Rebounding %: 18.8%, TS%: 55.6%, WS/48: 0.250

Duncan's marginal advantage in WS/48 doesn't mean much when you consider how much better the Spurs were as a whole than the Wolves.

TL;DR: If KG was a lifetime Spur and Duncan was drafted by the Timberwolves, it'd be a no contest. But as it is, Duncan's had the better career, but KG was the superior individual player.

[Gus Fring]

5 > 1, Duncan's greatness allowed him to win 5. Something about his game allows him to constantly compete for championships. Something was missing from Garnett's game. All the stats that you say don't matter because of how great the spurs are a direct result of for Duncan's play. WS/48 minutes and the defensive stats shouldn't be left out. The spurs were great because of Duncan so all of the stats should be included.

Also are you saying in a vacuum KG was a better player than Duncan for their entire career or just a couple of years?


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[Purch]

A technically superior player?


Penalize Duncan for being smart and actually utalizing his post game, rather than settling for long jumpers. Realgm logic.

That's like Saying its a plus that KG was great from mid range, even though it didnt result in him being a better scorer than Shaq, who never had to develop a mid range game.

KG taking long jumpers always brung down his scoring effiency in the playoffs, Duncan taking shots inside improved his efficency in the playoffs.


The real debate is if KG is better than guys like Dirk, Malone and Barkley

[COM_GTFO]

Something was missing from Garnett's game.

Yeah. Help.

[Purch]

Something was missing from Garnett's game.

Yeah. Help.

Lol. Anything KG fails at before 2008 is a result of his teammates...Anything KG fails at from 2009 onward is because he's past his prime.

So basically by KG homer logic he's immune to nearly all criticism, except in 2008 Lol if only the greats like D-rob had that of level of immunity for the seasons they underachieved and led sub par defenses

[COM_GTFO]

A technically superior player?


Penalize Duncan for being smart and actually utalizing his post game, rather than settling for long jumpers. Realgm logic.

That's like Saying its a plus that KG was great from mid range, even though it didnt result in him being a better scorer than Shaq, who never had to develop a mid range game.

KG taking long jumpers always brung down his scoring effiency in the playoffs, Duncan taking shots inside improved his efficency in the playoffs.

Did you even watch prime KG?

He could handle, go coast to coast, pass, shoot etc. - these are all skills that reflect a player's technical ability. Having a great post game but being a subpar FT shooter for most of your career and being a poor jump shooter doesn't make you technically superior than a player who also had a great post game and could shoot as well.

Settling for jumpers? You make it sound like we're comparing LeBron and Kobe. KG and Duncan have pretty similar games and similar shooting percentages.

[Gus Fring]

Something was missing from Garnett's game.

Yeah. Help.

Idk what it is but his impact on the game wasn't good enough to win. His teams were not great but I believe if your good enough you can will your team at least to the playoffs and in the time which you said KG was better he missed the playoffs a couple of times. The west is tough but if Garnett was better than Duncan he should've been able to get past the first round every year instead of just once and missing the playoffs all together sometimes.



Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[COM_GTFO]

Something was missing from Garnett's game.

Yeah. Help.

Lol. Anything KG fails at before 2008 is a result of his teammates...Anything KG fails at from 2009 onward is because he's past his prime.

So basically by KG homer logic he's immune to nearly all criticism, except in 2008 Lol if only the greats like D-rob had that of level of immunity for the seasons they underachieved and led sub par defenses

I can tell you never ever payed any attention whatsoever to KG's Minnesota teams. If you did you would know they were straight TRASH - the best team he was ever on was the 03-04 Wolves that won 58 games and consisted of a 33-year-old Sprewell and a 34-year-old Cassell along with some future HOFers like Olowokandi, Trenton Hassell, Fred Hoiberg and Mark Madsen.

So basically by Duncan homer logic, KG sucks because he didn't win with Hoiberg/Hassell/Olowokandi/Sprewell/Cassell with Flip Saunders as coach, and Duncan is GOAT because he won with Tony Parker/David Robinson/Manu Ginobili/Bruce Bowen with Gregg Popovich as coach... Okay.

[Purch]

A technically superior player?


Penalize Duncan for being smart and actually utalizing his post game, rather than settling for long jumpers. Realgm logic.

That's like Saying its a plus that KG was great from mid range, even though it didnt result in him being a better scorer than Shaq, who never had to develop a mid range game.

KG taking long jumpers always brung down his scoring effiency in the playoffs, Duncan taking shots inside improved his efficency in the playoffs.

Did you even watch prime KG?

He could handle, go coast to coast, pass, shoot etc. - these are all skills that reflect a player's technical ability. Having a great post game but being a subpar FT shooter for most of your career and being a poor jump shooter doesn't make you technically superior than a player who also had a great post game and could shoot as well.

Settling for jumpers? You make it sound like we're comparing LeBron and Kobe. KG and Duncan have pretty similar games and similar shooting percentages.

Did I watch Prime KG? Is that a serious question ? 65% of the playoff highlights of Kevin Garnett in the playoffs were uploaded to my youtube channel. I've gone through more KG footage than 98% of this this forum.

Your argument about doing more means nothing, it's like the people who used to argue that Carmelo's scoring versitility made him a better scorer than KD. It doesn't matter how versatile you are on offense if that counties to a translate to a drop in post season effiency every year


Yes it's exactly like comparing Lebron to Kobe

[Purch]

Yeah. Help.

Lol. Anything KG fails at before 2008 is a result of his teammates...Anything KG fails at from 2009 onward is because he's past his prime.

So basically by KG homer logic he's immune to nearly all criticism, except in 2008 Lol if only the greats like D-rob had that of level of immunity for the seasons they underachieved and led sub par defenses

I can tell you never ever payed any attention whatsoever to KG's Minnesota teams. If you did you would know they were straight TRASH - the best team he was ever on was the 03-04 Wolves that won 58 games and consisted of a 33-year-old Sprewell and a 34-year-old Cassell along with some future HOFers like Olowokandi, Trenton Hassell, Fred Hoiberg and Mark Madsen.

So basically by Duncan homer logic, KG sucks because he didn't win with Hoiberg/Hassell/Olowokandi/Sprewell/Cassell with Flip Saunders as coach, and Duncan is GOAT because he won with Tony Parker/David Robinson/Manu Ginobili/Bruce Bowen with Gregg Popovich as coach... Okay.

Yawn we all saw KG lead teams have sub par defenses. We all saw his supporting cast., we've all seen his weaknesses.

This isn't the first time we've analyzed KG's career.

[COM_GTFO]

Also are you saying in a vacuum KG was a better player than Duncan for their entire career or just a couple of years?

I'm saying that in a vacuum KG was a better player and talent. More skilled, more athletic, not quite as consistent/coachable as Duncan, but still a better player that completely gets overlooked because of his lack of postseason success. I can't see how anyone can argue that KG wouldn't have been able to accomplish what Duncan did if he was on the Spurs.

[PCProductions]

Kevin Garnett is about as controversial a player as it gets on the PC board. For the record, a lot of really knowledgable people around here don't think there's a chasm between the two that a lot fans seems to think exist. From everything I've read about the two, I'd say it's pretty close to even, and more of a decision on what type of player you need rather than who is flat out better. Garnett isn't quite as good as guarding the rim as Duncan while Duncan isn't as good as covering the floor as Garnett. Subtle defensive difference but important considering who else is on the team.

It's a great debate that I'm sure will never truly be concluded.

[Basketballefan]

Duncan was a vastly better and more consistent playoff performer than KG.

[Basketballefan]

Kevin Garnett is about as controversial a player as it gets on the PC board. For the record, a lot of really knowledgable people around here don't think there's a chasm between the two that a lot fans seems to think exist. From everything I've read about the two, I'd say it's pretty close to even, and more of a decision on what type of player you need rather than who is flat out better. Garnett isn't quite as good as guarding the rim as Duncan while Duncan isn't as good as covering the floor as Garnett. Subtle defensive difference but important considering who else is on the team.

It's a great debate that I'm sure will never truly be concluded.

The debate was concluded long ago, and Duncan's 5th ring should clear any doubts about who was better and had the better career. It only remains unsolved to KG homers.

[COM_GTFO]

Did I watch Prime KG? Is that a serious question ? 65% of the playoff highlights of Kevin Garnett in the playoffs were uploaded to my youtube channel. I've gone through more KG footage than 98% of this this forum.

Your argument about doing more means nothing, it's like the people who used to argue that Carmelo's scoring versitility made him a better scorer than KD. It doesn't matter how versatile you are on offense if that counties to a translate to a drop in post season effiency every year


Yes it's exactly like comparing Lebron to Kobe

Then I don't understand how you don't understand that KG WAS "technically" superior to Duncan. Just like Marc Gasol is TECHNICALLY superior to Dwight Howard. I never said KG was a better scorer than Duncan, and yet you're reacting as if I have. I simply said KG was technically superior, implying that he was a more versatile scorer.

What exactly are you objecting to from what I've said? KG was a more versatile scorer - does it matter for postseason success? No, because it's one tiny aspect of the game. Does it matter at all? Yes, because versatility is still an asset to have.

It's like comparing LeBron to Kobe? Yeah, except the gigantic fact that prime KG & Duncan have pretty much scored with the same efficiency...

[COM_GTFO]

Duncan was a vastly better and more consistent playoff performer than KG.

How is that even possible to say? Duncan made the playoffs every year, KG often missed the playoffs and never even got a chance to perform.

[dautjazz]

I think Garnett at his peak was a little better, maybe the greatest PF peak ever. Duncan's minutes certainly have been managed excellently, has averaged less than 35mpg his last 10 seasons, over his last seasons, 29.5mpg over the last 5 seasons. Garnett averaged 31mpg in Boston, so he was also very well managed in Boston, probably in large part due too being a great team and having decent back ups in Glen Davis and Bass. Either way, if you factor in playoffs, injuries KG has had, reduced minutes his rookie year and last season, the difference is under 2000 minutes between the two, and despite KG being drafted two years ahead. If you count the 4 seasons of college ball for Duncan, he's played 2000+ more minutes post high school than KG. I'm not entirely sure why Duncan has done so much better, maybe part of it is because KG has always been a more athletic player, so as his athletism has degraded, so has his game, but Duncan per minute has not been effected that heavily since he's never really been an above the rim type of player.

[Purch]

Did I watch Prime KG? Is that a serious question ? 65% of the playoff highlights of Kevin Garnett in the playoffs were uploaded to my youtube channel. I've gone through more KG footage than 98% of this this forum.

Your argument about doing more means nothing, it's like the people who used to argue that Carmelo's scoring versitility made him a better scorer than KD. It doesn't matter how versatile you are on offense if that counties to a translate to a drop in post season effiency every year


Yes it's exactly like comparing Lebron to Kobe

Then I don't understand how you don't understand that KG WAS "technically" superior to Duncan. Just like Marc Gasol is TECHNICALLY superior to Dwight Howard. I never said KG was a better scorer than Duncan, and yet you're reacting as if I have. I simply said KG was technically superior, implying that he was a more versatile scorer.

What exactly are you objecting to from what I've said? KG was a more versatile scorer - does it matter for postseason success? No, because it's one tiny aspect of the game. Does it matter at all? Yes, because versatility is still an asset to have.

It's like comparing LeBron to Kobe? Yeah, except the gigantic fact that prime KG & Duncan have pretty much scored with the same efficiency...

Because it's like saying Lamar Odim was technically superior to Shaq, because of his versatility. It means nothing because it didnt translate to being better.

It's exactly like comparing them, because you see a drop in KG's post season efficency, nearly every year, regardless of teammates, that you don't see with Duncan.

In fact it's just as easy for me to say Duncan is better than Garnett, as it is for me to say Lebron is better than Kobe, even though I've gone through more KG footage than any of the others. Maybe over exposure is why I think lower of him than the other 3. Who knows

[Louie_Ruckuz]

Something was missing from Garnett's game.

Yeah. Help.

Lol. Anything KG fails at before 2008 is a result of his teammates...Anything KG fails at from 2009 onward is because he's past his prime.

So basically by KG homer logic he's immune to nearly all criticism, except in 2008 Lol if only the greats like D-rob had that of level of immunity for the seasons they underachieved and led sub par defenses

WOW I'm shocked!!! Someone in REAL GM with some common sense

[Jaivl]

Duncan taking shots inside improved his efficency in the playoffs.

Yeah sure. "Slightly worse" != improve.

And yeah, Garnett and Duncan at their best (anyone read the OP? He's not talking about careers) are about equals.