Charles Barkley Impact Statistics (1989-1992)

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Charles Barkley Impact Statistics (1989-1992) 

Post#1 » by Dipper 13 » Thu Sep 4, 2014 9:11 pm

Below are Barkley's plus minus statistics from the 76ers yearbooks, and the on/off statistics of him offense, defense, and overall net. His defense is looks relatively good in 1989 and 1990, but horrible in 1991 & especially 1992. His 4 year average for Net ORtg is +11.5, peaking at +14.4 in 1991-92.


1988-89

http://i.imgur.com/Tx9Vw0X.jpg




1989-90

http://i.imgur.com/zUbZGVk.jpg




1990-91

http://i.imgur.com/YLxU5rT.jpg




1991-92

http://i.imgur.com/dQC67su.jpg

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Re: Charles Barkley Impact Statistics (1989-1992) 

Post#2 » by Dipper 13 » Thu Sep 4, 2014 9:40 pm

We can only imagine how good Barkley's 1993 data would look, considering the team offense was +5.3 (with K.J. missing 33 games) and the team defense was -1.3, for a net rating of +6.6.

In the 6 games Barkley missed in 1993, the Suns offense dropped to 103.1 (-4.9) and the defense also dropped to 107.3 (-0.7) for a net rating of -4.2
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Re: Charles Barkley Impact Statistics (1989-1992) 

Post#3 » by colts18 » Thu Sep 4, 2014 9:57 pm

Offensive rating

Code: Select all

       On   Off   Net
1988   109.7   102.9   6.8
1989   115.3   104.7   10.6
1990   115.5   106.6   8.9
1991   112.4   100.5   11.9
1992   112.3   97.9   14.3


Defensive Rating (positive is bad, negative is good)

Code: Select all

       On   Off   Net
1988   110.6   109.2   1.4
1989   111.4   111.8   -0.4
1990   108.5   107.9   0.6
1991   109.3   106.2   3.1
1992   112.0   103.7   8.3


Code: Select all

       On   Off   Net
1988   -0.9   -6.3   5.4
1989   3.9   -7.1   11.0
1990   7.0   -1.3   8.3
1991   3.1   -5.7   8.8
1992   0.3   -5.7   6.0


Regressed RAPM adjusted for 2014 Variance

1988 2.40
1989 7.29
1990 7.73
1991 6.71
1992 5.45

Here is where those RAPM numbers would rank in 2014:
88: 33rd
89: 1st
90: 1st
91: 3rd
92: 5th
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Re: Charles Barkley Impact Statistics (1989-1992) 

Post#4 » by Dipper 13 » Thu Sep 4, 2014 10:10 pm

Here is where those RAPM numbers would rank in 2014:
88: 33rd
89: 1st
90: 1st
91: 3rd
92: 5th


It's unfortunate how badly he dogged it defensively those last two years, I never understood how someone who worked so hard under the boards was so lazy defensively. Imagine what his offensive RAPM looks like.
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Re: Charles Barkley Impact Statistics (1989-1992) 

Post#5 » by colts18 » Thu Sep 4, 2014 10:19 pm

Dipper 13 wrote:
Here is where those RAPM numbers would rank in 2014:
88: 33rd
89: 1st
90: 1st
91: 3rd
92: 5th


It's unfortunate how badly he dogged it defensively those last two years, I never understood how someone who worked so hard under the boards was so lazy defensively. Imagine what his offensive RAPM looks like.


This is where Barkley ranked in offensive RAPM from 97-00 (AKA after his prime):

97: 22nd
98: 2nd
99: 1st
00: 6th

That's great. Karl Malone looked great in offense too: 1st, 1st, 3rd, 2nd.
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Re: Charles Barkley Impact Statistics (1989-1992) 

Post#6 » by Dipper 13 » Thu Sep 4, 2014 10:31 pm

^I was referring to the late 80's/early 90s. In the plus/minus thread fpliii has mentioned Harvey Pollack noting the NBA's play by play data going back to 1988.


Here is where those RAPM numbers would rank in 2014:



Is it possible to do this for other seasons in the last decade? I am not familiar with the process of how RAPM is calculated. Thanks.
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Re: Charles Barkley Impact Statistics (1989-1992) 

Post#7 » by RebelWithACause » Thu Sep 4, 2014 11:27 pm

How does his netORTG stack up with other All-Time great offensive players?

Especially against the 4-5 best years of Dirk, Kobe, Nash, LeBron, Wade in particular?
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Re: Charles Barkley Impact Statistics (1989-1992) 

Post#8 » by G35 » Thu Sep 4, 2014 11:30 pm

Dipper 13 wrote:
Here is where those RAPM numbers would rank in 2014:
88: 33rd
89: 1st
90: 1st
91: 3rd
92: 5th


It's unfortunate how badly he dogged it defensively those last two years, I never understood how someone who worked so hard under the boards was so lazy defensively. Imagine what his offensive RAPM looks like.


Well defense is harder to play than offense and I think he got tired carrying the Sixers on offense and being only 6'6 makes it a lot harder when just about everyone you face is taller than you.....
I'm so tired of the typical......
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Re: Charles Barkley Impact Statistics (1989-1992) 

Post#9 » by Winsome Gerbil » Thu Sep 4, 2014 11:54 pm

Don't forget that Barkley and the Sixers incompetent management had had a falling out by that point and Barkley wanted out. And he had the perfect personality to consciously say well, you aren't giving me your best, I am not giving you mine.
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Re: Charles Barkley Impact Statistics (1989-1992) 

Post#10 » by Dipper 13 » Fri Sep 5, 2014 12:19 am

RebelWithACause wrote:How does his netORTG stack up with other All-Time great offensive players?

Especially against the 4-5 best years of Dirk, Kobe, Nash, LeBron, Wade in particular?


I believe the 1993 data would boost Barkley's net average on both ends. The years below are somewhat arbitrary, unless we define what specific period should be used for each player.


LeBron 2008-2013: +11.6

Barkley 1989-1992: +11.5

Nash 2005-2010: +11.4

Wade 2009-2012: +10.7

Kobe 2006-2010: +10.3

Dirk 2005-2011: +10.0
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Re: Charles Barkley Impact Statistics (1989-1992) 

Post#11 » by Dipper 13 » Fri Sep 5, 2014 12:42 am

Well defense is harder to play than offense and I think he got tired carrying the Sixers on offense and being only 6'6 makes it a lot harder when just about everyone you face is taller than you.....


Yes, a 6'5 forward would certainly have difficulty contesting shots inside against 7 footers. However he had enough strength to not get bullied for deep position and learned some tricks from Mahorn.


Don't forget that Barkley and the Sixers incompetent management had had a falling out by that point and Barkley wanted out. And he had the perfect personality to consciously say well, you aren't giving me your best, I am not giving you mine.



When the Sixers traded Barkley he was still under contract through 1997-98, with 100% guaranteed through 1994-95. He signed an extension in the off season just before they had their best year (1990), winning 53 games and the Atlantic Division. The other what-if question (aside from the '86 draft day humiliation) is if Barkley remains beyond 1992, what does the roster look like with Coach Jim Lynam moving up to the general manager position and Doug Moe coming in as head coach? If the Sixers somehow managed to get a top 2 pick in the draft lottery, they could have paired Barkley with either Shaq or Zo. :o



Philadelphia Daily News - April 24, 1992

A '90s kind of meeting convened in Huntingdon Valley last night.

On one side of the table: 76ers owner Harold Katz. On the other: outspoken and controversial team captain Charles Barkley. The site: Katz's home.

The subject: the future.

"We agreed the team can't stay together as it is," Barkley said late last night. "Now comes the hard part. How are we going to make it better?

"We have a lot riding on the (May 17) lottery. He told me not to worry about getting traded. He said if I'm getting traded, he'll tell me. Right now, my concern is making our team better.

"I want to be here. I'm a Philadelphian. I like Philadelphia, I really do want to finish my career here. I just don't ever want to experience again what happened this year."

Barkley, who said the Sixers "need a serious overhaul," said he spent nearly three hours with Katz, and that was after Katz spent more than an hour with the media in the afternoon at the team's Veterans Stadium offices.

The key points included:

* The Sixers would be interested in acquiring center Hakeem Olajuwon from Houston and that Olajuwon "would be a perfect fit" within the rules of the salary cap should Barkley be included in a projected deal.

"I would be interested, (but) I didn't know if that's going to happen," Katz said. "If you look at (the Sixers) and say we don't need a (center), then I don't think you've been following our team. Anybody would have to say they were interested in what you guys or I might consider the top center or second or third best center in the world."

* Katz said he has "vacillated" on the wisdom of trading Barkley and that he can't decide whether Barkley truly wants to remain with the team or move on.

"I have viewpoints that I don't want to share now," Katz said. "I'm wide open. We're going to look to see what's best for the team. If (Barkley's) not here, certainly we have a different type team. If Charles is here, we have to get different type players around (him)."

* Katz said he thought Barkley was "a terrific player" with "leadership qualities that haven't come out."

"I don't think you lead in the style he leads," Katz said. "I think you lead with more stroke than you do hollering."

* Katz declined to directly address the status of coach Jim Lynam, who has a year remaining on his contract, and adopted a similar stance on Shue, who is at the end of a two-year contract.
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Re: Charles Barkley Impact Statistics (1989-1992) 

Post#12 » by Dipper 13 » Fri Sep 5, 2014 12:55 am

"I just can't play basketball for money."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGyqXFcDTsU&t=16m3s
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Re: Charles Barkley Impact Statistics (1989-1992) 

Post#13 » by The Infamous1 » Sun Sep 7, 2014 2:05 am

Peak/Prime Barkley was an absolute monster. In the 89-90 season there were serious conversations on whether Barkley was better than mike and magic.
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Re: Charles Barkley Impact Statistics (1989-1992) 

Post#14 » by Dipper 13 » Sun Sep 7, 2014 12:00 pm

The Infamous1 wrote:Peak/Prime Barkley was an absolute monster. In the 89-90 season there were serious conversations on whether Barkley was better than mike and magic.


He had 11 more first place MVP votes than Magic, and 17 more than Jordan. To balance out all the first place votes he got, some writers left him completely off their ballots. Magic even said he was shocked to win it, and Jordan said he expected Barkley to win.


Spoiler:
Philadelphia Daily News - March 30, 1990

"Look at the candidates for MVP and the MVPs of the past," said Sixers swingman Derek Smith. "They've always had an all-star teammate or two. Without Charles, this basketball team is way down there."



Philadelphia Daily News - April 09, 1990

"Charles Barkley may not have been named Player of the Week or Player of the Month," said Derek Smith, "but if he's not the MVP, they ought to abolish the award and never give it out again."



Philadelphia Daily News - May 03, 1990

"What happens is, Charles gives you legitimacy just by going on the court," said Sixers general manager John Nash. "He goes out there with four other guys and you have a chance to win. But two years ago, we didn't have a complementary group that was nearly as productive.

"Some of our best games have come when he has not been the leading scorer, because even when he doesn't score, he rebounds. He always rebounds."

Said Barkley: "I can lift other guys. If that didn't work in the past, it was because there wasn't enough to lift. But I knew we had enough this year."

"He brings a spirit to me," Mahorn said. "He gets so emotional, if you're not emotional with him, he'll head-butt you, knock your head off. Sometimes you have to hold him back a little, pull in his reins, so he stays effective. But that's the way he is."



St. Paul Pioneer Press - Apr 29, 1990

Jordan is on record as saying he would vote for Charles Barkley as the MVP this season. A worthy choice, given the way Barkley has elevated both his game and his team. But Jordan says that's not why he would pick him. "Barkley thinks he's an outcast," Jordan said, smiling. "He thinks no one admires his talents. He talks about it all the time, how he never gets any respect. I'd like to see him get it (the MVP) so he could quit being so hard on himself." "I haven't campaigned for it and I'm not going to," Jordan said.



Philadelphia Daily News - April 23, 1990

Rick Mahorn says he would vote for teammate Charles Barkley as the NBA's Most Valuable Player.

"But I don't feel he'll get it, 'cause I'm here," Mahorn said after the 76ers ended their regular season yesterday with a 118-98 loss to Boston.

"People seem to see a negative side to Charles, and there are people who don't like that in a player. Then they see me playing next to him, and they don't like me, either.

"If it were up to the players, he'd be one of the top five, and without him it would have been kind of rough for this team. People don't understand that the things he can do are unbelievable.

"People see Magic (Johnson), Michael (Jordan), Patrick (Ewing). There's media stuff on them everywhere, but there's not that much on Charles."



Philadelphia Daily News - April 23, 1990

Mahorn wondered if the brawl might cost Barkley some MVP ballots, even if the media panel's votes had to be in by yesterday, even if the majority of the panel probably had decided long before last Thursday.

"Some people file their taxes at the last minute," Mahorn said. "Maybe there are people voting at the last minute, too. You never know."



Philadelphia Daily News - May 23, 1990

Charles Barkley says his reputation came back to haunt him.

That is why he says he could draw the most first-place NBA Most Valuable Player ballots (38) from a 92-member media panel and still finish second behind Magic Johnson, of the Los Angeles Lakers.

"You get stereotyped, you develop a reputation," the 76ers' captain said yesterday before undergoing magnetic resonance imaging to clarify the problem he has been having with his right shoulder and arm.

"I think this year is even more special than the other two, because of the competition," Johnson said. "I was shocked to hear I had won it . . . This makes me feel a little better. I've been sad, frustrated, upset since we lost (to Phoenix in the Western Conference semifinals).

Third-place finisher Michael Jordan, on the other hand, remains alive with the Bulls in the Eastern Conference final against Detroit.

"I seriously thought that Charles would win it because of what I believe the credentials were - to make your team better and improve the situation within a team," Jordan said. "You look at what was expected of Philly and what they did and who was the main reason for that, and it all led to Charles Barkley."

So why didn't Barkley win?

"I'm seen as a controversial guy, I'll be a controversial guy the rest of my career," Barkley said. "So in a situation like this, if a voter likes you, he'll pick you No. 1. But if a voter doesn't like your personality and doesn't want to put you No. 1, he might not put you No. 2, either. He'll put you lower."

Barkley might not buy this, but he's more likely to be viewed as a media darling by the majority of the balloters, who were making their choices strictly on the strength of regular-season performance.
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Re: Charles Barkley Impact Statistics (1989-1992) 

Post#15 » by lorak » Sun Sep 7, 2014 4:51 pm

colts18 wrote:Offensive rating

Code: Select all

       On   Off   Net
1988   109.7   102.9   6.8



Rest of your numbers is ok, but I think there is a mistake here. I've got ON ORTG 109.7, but OFF ORTG 105.5, and thus ORTG net +4.1 and overall net +2.7.
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Re: Charles Barkley Impact Statistics (1989-1992) 

Post#16 » by colts18 » Sun Sep 7, 2014 5:10 pm

lorak wrote:
colts18 wrote:Offensive rating

Code: Select all

       On   Off   Net
1988   109.7   102.9   6.8



Rest of your numbers is ok, but I think there is a mistake here. I've got ON ORTG 109.7, but OFF ORTG 105.5, and thus ORTG net +4.1 and overall net +2.7.

Good catch. It seems like 88 Barkley was the outlier compared to the other years. Even his 91 and 92 down years look better by plus/minus stats
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Re: Charles Barkley Impact Statistics (1989-1992) 

Post#17 » by Dipper 13 » Sun Sep 7, 2014 6:57 pm

Even his 91 and 92 down years look better by plus/minus stats


I wouldn't call those down years, at least offensively. He was as good as ever on offense. They were certainly down years for the Sixers as a team, and it appears Barkley badly tanked his defensive effort those last two years. It would be interesting to see the RAPM data and how much of this was affected by the lineups, especially in 1991.

Also Maunte Bol with his 8'6 wingspan had a big defensive impact in 1991, at -14.0. Some may say he played limited minutes, but he was very effective at protecting the rim.

http://i.imgur.com/rWUKu3k.png
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Re: Charles Barkley Impact Statistics (1989-1992) 

Post#18 » by colts18 » Sun Sep 7, 2014 7:06 pm

Dipper 13 wrote:
Even his 91 and 92 down years look better by plus/minus stats


I wouldn't call those down years, at least offensively. He was as good as ever on offense. They were certainly down years for the Sixers as a team, and it appears Barkley badly tanked his defensive effort those last two years. It would be interesting to see the RAPM data and how much of this was affected by the lineups, especially in 1991.

Also Maunte Bol with his 8'6 wingspan had a big defensive impact in 1991, at -14.0. Some may say he played limited minutes, but he was very effective at protecting the rim.

http://i.imgur.com/rWUKu3k.png


Wow. Do you have Bol's numbers for his other years in Philly? -14.0 on defense would be the highest on record so far. The best I've seen yet is Jason Collins -11.8 in 2005.
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Re: Charles Barkley Impact Statistics (1989-1992) 

Post#19 » by colts18 » Sun Sep 7, 2014 7:38 pm

Shawn Bradley seems like another guy who was underrated. Here is some numbers from him.


1994:

Code: Select all

   Off   Def   Net
On    100.3   102.9   -2.5
Off   102.5   113.3   -10.8
Net   -2.1   -10.4   8.3


-10.4 defensive impact. When he played, the sixers were 20-29 (.408) and 5-28 (.152) when he was out. Massive impact.

1995:

Code: Select all

   Off   Def   Net
On    105.7   107.4   -1.8
Off   101.9   113.0   -11.1
Net   3.8   -5.6   9.4


Another good showing. From the RAPM data we have, Bradley looks good. He wasn't a bust at all. He was a good player.
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Re: Charles Barkley Impact Statistics (1989-1992) 

Post#20 » by Dipper 13 » Sun Sep 7, 2014 7:38 pm

colts18 wrote:Wow. Do you have Bol's numbers for his other years in Philly? -14.0 on defense would be the highest on record so far. The best I've seen yet is Jason Collins -11.8 in 2005.



1991-92

http://i.imgur.com/dQC67su.jpg

-17.1 Net DRtg



1992-93

http://i.imgur.com/EEHcEHF.jpg

-1.9 Net DRtg

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