RealGM

??

GOAT

Really damn high. Top 10 for sure. Above him only some Jordan, Shaq, Russell, West and maybe a couple others.

Mavs fans, Kobe stans, LeBron stans, Bulls fans = not even TOP 20

cyclix wrote:Mavs fans, Kobe stans, LeBron stans, Bulls fans = not even TOP 20

Wade homers be like: Wade 09 > LeBron 09. Yep. You've said it.

If it's not the best finals ever by a player it has to be really close. Can't see it out of the top 5.

Maybe top 10.

I would take over it:

'91-'93, '97 Jordan
'00-'02 Shaq
'87 Magic
'86 Bird
'94 Olajuwon
'03 Duncan
'69 West
'67 Wilt
'62, '65 Russell

It was a very good performance but not ATG the way people make it seem if you consider the circumstances.

Top 10 seems like a conservative estimate though without making a list I can't say for sure.
Not sure about Top 5.
That seems less likely but I guess I can't fully rule it out. He was that good.

ardee wrote:Maybe top 10.

I would take over it:

'91-'93, '97 Jordan
'00-'02 Shaq
'87 Magic
'86 Bird
'94 Olajuwon
'03 Duncan
'69 West
'67 Wilt
'62, '65 Russell

It was a very good performance but not ATG the way people make it seem if you consider the circumstances.

Nice list.
Shaq & Jordan were the first that came to mind for me. Same for 03 Duncan.

Regarding the bolded.
I don't agree with diminishing that performance by bringing up ref conspiracies.
Dirk himself had multiple huge FT games in the playoffs that year and Kobe had a 24-25+ FT game against Dallas in the regular-season.
Sure the rules probably helped Wade get a few extra calls but I watched that series live and it seemed to me that the majority of the calls were legit with obvious contact occurring.
Dallas simply couldn't keep Wade from getting to the rim but then again I haven't seen a single defense that could keep Prime Wade away from the rim.
He was a GOAT slasher in the mold of a young Jordan.

Plus it isn't like Wade relied on FT's to score.
Over the 4 Miami wins Wade averaged 25ppg on FG's alone which is equal to Kobe's best mark which he posted in the 2009 Finals.

It's very good considering the numbers.

I just don't give it a lot of credibility, particularly games 5 and 6 where Wade could not be touched and shot 46 FT's.....

G35 wrote:It's very good considering the numbers.

I just don't give it a lot of credibility, particularly games 5 and 6 where Wade could not be touched and shot 46 FT's.....

Jordan 85 playoffs = 16 & 20 FT's in last 2 games of series.
Jordan 86 playoffs = averaged 18 FTA over the first 2 games of a 3 game series.
Jordan 89 playoffs = had games of 28 / 27 / 17 / 15 / 15 FTA.
Jordan 92 playoffs = 3g of +17 FTA.
Jordan 93 playoffs = 2g of 17+FTA.
Jordan 97 playoffs = 21 & 16 FTA games.
Jordan 98 playoffs = 1 games above 20+FTA, 2 games above 17+FTA, 3 games above 15+FTA.

Kobe 2001 playoffs = two back to back 19+FTA games.
Kobe 2012 playoffs = 2g above 17+FTA.

If an old creaky 1998 Jordan can have multiple games with 17+ FT's and a game above 20 why can't a Prime Wade with beneficial rules get two 20+ games?
If an injured, old & turtle slow 2012 Kobe can somehow get two 17+FTA games in the playoffs why can't Wade have 4 of them?
Look at what 89 Jordan did. Games of 28 & 27FTA. Why doesn't that year get discredited?

Seems like Wade is unfairly singled out. Like it is somehow strange that a GOAT slasher could get a huge number of FT's in a year where the rules were clearly softened.
Oh wait that isn't strange its makes perfect sense.

Definitely Top 3

No one couldn't stop him, had the godlike numbers to prove it, and he had an epic 0-2 story-line to go with it

ardee wrote:Maybe top 10.

I would take over it:

'91-'93, '97 Jordan
'00-'02 Shaq
'87 Magic
'86 Bird
'94 Olajuwon
'03 Duncan
'69 West
'67 Wilt
'62, '65 Russell

It was a very good performance but not ATG the way people make it seem if you consider the circumstances.

Really, a series where his team was a heavy favorite but still lost to an aging Russell. That Finals MVP award was more of a "We feel bad that you keep losing to the same team, even with homecourt. So here take this as consolation prize"

Also, Shaq undressing Rick Smits in 2000, and Todd Mcculloch/Jason Collins/Aaron Williams in 2002 can not be considered better". His other Western playoff series were great, because the competition has to count for something, come on.

Usual Suspects wrote:Also, Shaq undressing Rick Smits in 2000, and Todd Mcculloch/Jason Collins/Aaron Williams in 2002 can not be considered better". His other Western playoff series were great, because the competition has to count for something, come on.

I don't think that is fair.
I think Shaquille's 2000 performance is arguably the GOAT Finals performance.
Averaging nearly 40/20 in a slow paced year while being constantly triple teamed and even doubled off the ball at times is incredibly impressive.
Plus Indiana had Dale Davis (a big strong bruiser and an excellent m2m defender) with Smits who was a huge body to throw on him.
Also leading LAL past Indy with Kobe barely available for the most of the series is impressive on its own.
That Laker team was painfully thin and unproductive outside of their two stars.

What positional rivals did Jordan face in the Finals outside of Drexler in 92? None.

RayBan-Sematra wrote:

Usual Suspects wrote:Also, Shaq undressing Rick Smits in 2000, and Todd Mcculloch/Jason Collins/Aaron Williams in 2002 can not be considered better". His other Western playoff series were great, because the competition has to count for something, come on.

I don't think that is fair.
I think Shaquille's 2000 performance is arguably the GOAT Finals performance.
Averaging nearly 40/20 in a slow paced year while being constantly triple teamed and even doubled off the ball at times is incredibly impressive.
Plus Indiana had Dale Davis (a big strong bruiser and an excellent m2m defender) with Smits who was a huge body to throw on him.
Also leading LAL past Indy with Kobe barely available for the most of the series is impressive on its own.
That Laker team was painfully thin and unproductive outside of their two stars.

What positional rivals did Jordan face in the Finals outside of Drexler in 92? None.

I agree that was a great performance, but if we're discussing GOAT Finals performances it's really hard for me to put someone whose team was an overwhelming favorite at or near the top. Now if Shaq put those numbers up against Hakeem's Rockets in 95 resulting in championship (I know he put up big numbers in 95, but 0-4) There wouldn't even be a debate.

Also, I agree with the Jordan points. However in my mind that doesn't diminish him as a player, you have to play whoever is in front of you. Nonetheless if we are discussing just one series, I give a lot more credence to the competition faced relative to your own team.

Again I've not decided on my GOAT Finals performance as of yet, but just looking at the head to head Dallas absolutely demolished Miami in the regular season, and were the overwhelming favorites beating one of the best offensive teams in NBA history in the WCF. To me that matters when a player overcomes that type of challenge. I mean there's a reason some people consider Jordan's performance at the Boston Garden in which he lost in '86 his greatest game (they're wrong, but still) the fact that the competition he faced was so strong mattered.

Usual Suspects wrote: it's really hard for me to put someone whose team was an overwhelming favorite at or near the top.

Fair enough though I don't think I would consider LAL without Kobe (or with his injury factored in) to be the overwhelming favorites over Indy.
Indy was a reasonably deep team with some elite perimeter guys.
If you removed Shaq & Miller and let the supporting casts duke it out I think Indy would have won the series quite confidently.

Usual Suspects wrote:

ardee wrote:Maybe top 10.

I would take over it:

'91-'93, '97 Jordan
'00-'02 Shaq
'87 Magic
'86 Bird
'94 Olajuwon
'03 Duncan
'69 West
'67 Wilt
'62, '65 Russell

It was a very good performance but not ATG the way people make it seem if you consider the circumstances.

Really, a series where his team was a heavy favorite but still lost to an aging Russell. That Finals MVP award was more of a "We feel bad that you keep losing to the same team, even with homecourt. So here take this as consolation prize"

Not sure where you got the idea that West didn't deserve FMVP. He averaged 37.9 PTS, 4.7 REB and 7.4 AST on .490 FG% in the 69 Finals and scored 42 PTS in game 7.

SactoKingsFan wrote:

Usual Suspects wrote:

ardee wrote:Maybe top 10.

I would take over it:

'91-'93, '97 Jordan
'00-'02 Shaq
'87 Magic
'86 Bird
'94 Olajuwon
'03 Duncan
'69 West
'67 Wilt
'62, '65 Russell

It was a very good performance but not ATG the way people make it seem if you consider the circumstances.

Really, a series where his team was a heavy favorite but still lost to an aging Russell. That Finals MVP award was more of a "We feel bad that you keep losing to the same team, even with homecourt. So here take this as consolation prize"

Not sure where you got the idea that West didn't deserve FMVP. He averaged 37.9 PTS, 4.7 REB and 7.4 AST on .490 FG% in the 69 Finals and scored 42 PTS in game 7.

If your team is a heavy favorite and you lose gm 7 at home in a close game ("Mr. Clutch"), I'm sorry but you could average 50 and I still don't think you deserve to win Finals MVP. (Also the pace does inflate the numbers slightly, even with no 3pters).

cyclix wrote:Mavs fans, Kobe stans, LeBron stans, Bulls fans = not even TOP 20

Wade homers: GOAT

I wrote it already in another thread, but I have no problem to post it in here as well. The biggest problem I have with Wade is that he got calls which were often downright absurd. Just saying he got those only because of relentlessly driving to the hoop is bullsh*t. I started following the NBA in 1980 and I have NEVER (no, not even in Jordan days) seen a player getting such an amount of bad calls. Yes, I saw the stats Ray posted above regarding Jordan, but IMO those calls were still more justified than the crap Wade got. And averaging 18.25 FT over a 4 game stretch is just silly.

That's a comparison between the FT's Wade and Dirk got in 2006:


FT's attempted:
Dirk: 229
Wade: 250

FT's per game:
Dirk: 9.956
Wade: 10.869

FT's made:
Dirk: 205
Wade: 202

FT-percentage:
Dirk: .895
Wade: .808

Just for the 2006 Finals:

FT's attempted:
Dirk: 55
Wade: 97

FT's per game:
Dirk: 9.16
Wade: 16.16

FT's made:
Dirk: 49
Wade: 75

FT-percentage:
Dirk: .891
Wade: .773


FT's per game split into games 1-2
Dirk: 8.5
Wade: 12.0

FT's per game split into games 3-6:
Dirk: 9.5
Wade: 18.25!!!!! This is downright absurd

You can also look at the team stats in short:

Mavs: 26, 28, 26, 27, 25, 23 = 155
Heat: 19, 32, 34, 36, 49, 37 = 207

Game 3
D. Wade: 18 Free Throws (entire Heat team 34)

Entire Dallas team: 26 Free Throws

Margin of victory: Heat by 2

Game 5
D. Wade: 25 Free Throws (entire Heat team 49)

Entire Dallas team: 25 Free Throws

Margin of victory: Heat by 1

Game 6
D. Wade: 21 Free Throws (entire Heat team 37)

Entire Dallas team: 23 Free Throws

Margin of victory: Heat by 3

Perkele wrote:

cyclix wrote:Mavs fans, Kobe stans, LeBron stans, Bulls fans = not even TOP 20

Wade homers: GOAT

I wrote it already in another thread, but I have no problem to post it in here as well. The biggest problem I have with Wade is that he got calls which were often downright absurd. Just saying he got those only because of relentlessly driving to the hoop is bullsh*t. I started following the NBA in 1980 and I have NEVER (no, not even in Jordan days) seen a player getting such an amount of bad calls. Yes, I saw the stats Ray posted above regarding Jordan, but IMO those calls were still more justified than the crap Wade got. And averaging 18.25 FT over a 4 game stretch is just silly.

That's a comparison between the FT's Wade and Dirk got in 2006:


FT's attempted:
Dirk: 229
Wade: 250

FT's per game:
Dirk: 9.956
Wade: 10.869

FT's made:
Dirk: 205
Wade: 202

FT-percentage:
Dirk: .895
Wade: .808

Just for the 2006 Finals:

FT's attempted:
Dirk: 55
Wade: 97

FT's per game:
Dirk: 9.16
Wade: 16.16

FT's made:
Dirk: 49
Wade: 75

FT-percentage:
Dirk: .891
Wade: .773


FT's per game split into games 1-2
Dirk: 8.5
Wade: 12.0

FT's per game split into games 3-6:
Dirk: 9.5
Wade: 18.25!!!!! This is downright absurd

You can also look at the team stats in short:

Mavs: 26, 28, 26, 27, 25, 23 = 155
Heat: 19, 32, 34, 36, 49, 37 = 207

Game 3
D. Wade: 18 Free Throws (entire Heat team 34)

Entire Dallas team: 26 Free Throws

Margin of victory: Heat by 2

Game 5
D. Wade: 25 Free Throws (entire Heat team 49)

Entire Dallas team: 25 Free Throws

Margin of victory: Heat by 1

Game 6
D. Wade: 21 Free Throws (entire Heat team 37)

Entire Dallas team: 23 Free Throws

Ok but mentioned above Wade averaged 25 ppg on FGs alone. So even if he was getting his usual 10+ fts a game he still would've averaged around 32 or so.

Basketballefan wrote:

Perkele wrote:

cyclix wrote:Mavs fans, Kobe stans, LeBron stans, Bulls fans = not even TOP 20

Wade homers: GOAT

I wrote it already in another thread, but I have no problem to post it in here as well. The biggest problem I have with Wade is that he got calls which were often downright absurd. Just saying he got those only because of relentlessly driving to the hoop is bullsh*t. I started following the NBA in 1980 and I have NEVER (no, not even in Jordan days) seen a player getting such an amount of bad calls. Yes, I saw the stats Ray posted above regarding Jordan, but IMO those calls were still more justified than the crap Wade got. And averaging 18.25 FT over a 4 game stretch is just silly.

That's a comparison between the FT's Wade and Dirk got in 2006:


FT's attempted:
Dirk: 229
Wade: 250

FT's per game:
Dirk: 9.956
Wade: 10.869

FT's made:
Dirk: 205
Wade: 202

FT-percentage:
Dirk: .895
Wade: .808

Just for the 2006 Finals:

FT's attempted:
Dirk: 55
Wade: 97

FT's per game:
Dirk: 9.16
Wade: 16.16

FT's made:
Dirk: 49
Wade: 75

FT-percentage:
Dirk: .891
Wade: .773


FT's per game split into games 1-2
Dirk: 8.5
Wade: 12.0

FT's per game split into games 3-6:
Dirk: 9.5
Wade: 18.25!!!!! This is downright absurd

You can also look at the team stats in short:

Mavs: 26, 28, 26, 27, 25, 23 = 155
Heat: 19, 32, 34, 36, 49, 37 = 207

Game 3
D. Wade: 18 Free Throws (entire Heat team 34)

Entire Dallas team: 26 Free Throws

Margin of victory: Heat by 2

Game 5
D. Wade: 25 Free Throws (entire Heat team 49)

Entire Dallas team: 25 Free Throws

Margin of victory: Heat by 1

Game 6
D. Wade: 21 Free Throws (entire Heat team 37)

Entire Dallas team: 23 Free Throws

Margin of victory: Heat by 3

Ok but mentioned above Wade averaged 25 ppg on FGs alone. So even if he was getting his usual 10+ fts a game he still would've averaged around 32 or so.

Probably, but the outcome of the series would have been different. If you look how close the games 3, 5 and 6 were, without Wade having that parade to the charity stripe the Mavs would have won in 2006, I'm sure of that.

Sure, I have no problems to admit that the refs didn't make the Mavs missing buckets, especially in game 3 when they were up 12 or something like that with about 7-8 minutes to go. If the Mavs had just scored, they would have won game 3 and very likely the series. However, that doesn't nullify the bullsh*t calls Wade got.