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a. Dikembe Mutombo (or Ben Wallace) is the best defensive big left though Nate Thurmond has an argument. However, Mutombo is at least something of a positive on offense, the other two are zero or active negatives. Neil Johnston or Bob McAdoo are the best offensive bigs left. For two way players, Zo, Dwight or maybe McHale (but I have questions about his rebounding). Would love to see some good big man comps among this set.

b. George Gervin seems the most impactful wing left, but I like my stars to put in effort on defense. Paul Pierce deserves a look too, but Gervin seemed to draw more attention and have a greater impact. He seemed to have a greater impact than McHale too (leading teams with little support, etc, length of career, etc.) though normally I go for the two-way star first. I never worried about the likes of Reggie Miller, Ray Allen, or Glen Rice coming to town the way I did for Gervin. Durant still has the peak value with Connie Hawkins or maybe Marques Johnson running next but they can't compete with the likes of Gervin in terms of overall impact.

c. Gary Payton over other PGs left. More efficient scorer, competent though less assist prone playmaker, better defender than Isiah. Isiah's playoff heroics make it close though.
So, Mutombo, McAdoo, Mourning, Gervin, or Payton. Peak impact, it's Durant, longevity it's Gervin, I am open to argument but for now, I will go with:

Vote Gary Payton

Vote: Isiah Thomas

Please vote for Isiah. Please. I don't want to do this anymore!

penbeast0 wrote:a. Dikembe Mutombo (or Ben Wallace) is the best defensive big left though Nate Thurmond has an argument.

On an aside, I was thinking about Mutombo versus Wallace some months ago, and I'd have to put Mutombo ahead because he was a positive contributor for longer for more teams, while Wallace was never the same after leaving Detroit.

ronnymac2 wrote:Vote: Isiah Thomas

Please vote for Isiah. Please. I don't want to do this anymore!

Spoiler:

In all seriousness, 1990 Finals MVP with one of the great performances by a PG ever. The legendary Game 6 3rd quarter against LA in 1988. 16 points in like, 94 seconds against New York. 24-10 in the playoffs from 1984-1987. Great skillset for the playoffs. Aggressive, creative, arguably GOAT ball-handler, great passer. Underrated strength for finishing. Detroit was normally top 10 in offense with Isiah at the helm.

How do you think I feel about Durant?



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ronnymac2 wrote:Vote: Isiah Thomas

Please vote for Isiah. Please. I don't want to do this anymore!

Spoiler:

In all seriousness, 1990 Finals MVP with one of the great performances by a PG ever. The legendary Game 6 3rd quarter against LA in 1988. 16 points in like, 94 seconds against New York. 24-10 in the playoffs from 1984-1987. Great skillset for the playoffs. Aggressive, creative, arguably GOAT ball-handler, great passer. Underrated strength for finishing. Detroit was normally top 10 in offense with Isiah at the helm.

Feeling the same way about Gary Payton, and his offenses were better than Isiah's (though despite their reps, the Pistons were a better defensive team . . . of course Rodman and Dumars might be a bit better than Kemp and Hawkins, etc.).

I think the two are pretty close; Payton was the better player but Isiah stepped up more on the big stage.

Vote: Reggie Miller

Not really sure what to say. Figure I'm going to keep voting Reggie for a while now.

What comes to mind is just how hard it is to keep having high impact for a very long time. What I see tends to happens with players is that when they drop X% in production ability - as in, stats like PER, WS, etc - they tend to drop far more than that in terms of actual impact. Reason for this is that, if they are superstars, they are good to the point where teams have gone all in just building everything about that player, but that means that when the player falls off it tends to hit the team in multiple ways. The high volume scorer who isn't as effective any more loses impact by his direct loss in efficiency yet, but also based on the fact that he doesn't the same effect on spacing, and then beyond that there are the attempted possession trying to have him score his usual way that have to be quit and re-grouped. Then you start thinking about the fact that teammates have to shift how they perceive his openness - they are used to passing to him in situations that now sometimes they shouldn't, and they aren't used to it. Plus the fact the absurdity of that volume scorer being in a position of playmaking gets worse because he's now more often in a position where he has to actually think.

Miller by contrast has an arch much more like a great distributor without health issues, and so for me it becomes a question of where he stacks up relative to those guys. I'm inclined to put Stockton over him...but I don't actually see that as a given, because as we talked about, when the going got tough, Stockton took more of a backseat, whereas Miller scaled to the circumstances.

Payton, Isiah and Gervin are my top 3 candidates here, but seeing CP3 at 31, I think it's time for Durant to get in, as well. Anyway, I disagree with that, personally I wouldn't rank Paul quite as high just yet, his longevity is still unimpressive (and so is Durant's). That being said, I feel like I have to adjust a bit to move KD up a few spots higher. It's very possible that he'll be my vote.

Quotatious wrote:Payton, Isiah and Gervin are my top 3 candidates here, but seeing CP3 at 31, I think it's time for Durant to get in, as well. Anyway, I disagree with that, personally I wouldn't rank Paul quite as high just yet, his longevity is still unimpressive (and so is Durant's). That being said, I feel like I have to adjust a bit to move KD up a few spots higher. It's very possible that he'll be my vote.

"Two wrongs don't make a right."*

*I'm not saying voting for Durant here is necessarily wrong, but I am saying if you don't think he belongs here, I'd hope you wouldn't vote for him in a need to link his spot to Paul's.

What about Alonzo Mourning? He was 2nd in MVP twice and won 2 DPOY over Peak Shaq and Mutombo. I can't have Mutombo ahead of Zo when no one considered Mutombo on that level. I bet even John Thompson would laugh at the suggestion that Mutombo was better than Zo.

Chuck Texas wrote:"Two wrongs don't make a right."*

*I'm not saying voting for Durant here is necessarily wrong, but I am saying if you don't think he belongs here, I'd hope you wouldn't vote for him in a need to link his spot to Paul's.

Makes sense, although I have to admit that I don't really have any rigid criteria, and I can see a great case for CP3 and Durant based on peak/5-year prime (they are better than quite a few guys who are already in, based on peaks and primes). Longevity is pretty important to me, but it's definitely not the single most important factor (if it was, I guess I would have to rank Kareem over Jordan, Kobe over Bird and Magic, Moses and Karl over D-Rob etc., but I don't, because I think MJ, Magic/Bird, and D-Rob were better in their primes). I'm rather inconsistent in terms of what I value the most, but I always try to find the right balance between peak/prime/longevity (and playoff performance), which is really hard to do without any specific system, according to which I could compare those players.

colts18 wrote:What about Alonzo Mourning? He was 2nd in MVP twice and won 2 DPOY over Peak Shaq and Mutombo. I can't have Mutombo ahead of Zo when no one considered Mutombo on that level. I bet even John Thompson would laugh at the suggestion that Mutombo was better than Zo.

As good as peak/prime Zo was, I still think his longevity/durability issues should keep him out of the top 40.

colts18 wrote:What about Alonzo Mourning? He was 2nd in MVP twice and won 2 DPOY over Peak Shaq and Mutombo. I can't have Mutombo ahead of Zo when no one considered Mutombo on that level. I bet even John Thompson would laugh at the suggestion that Mutombo was better than Zo.

I agree that Mourning should be ahead of Mutombo - he was an MVP caliber player at his peak, Dikembe was IMO barely a top 10 player in his best seasons. That's a prime example of what I just talked about - to me, Alonzo's peak/prime just outweighs Mutombo's longevity, because he was in a different class as a player.

SactoKingsFan wrote:As good as peak/prime Zo was, I think his longevity/durability issues should keep him out of the top 40.

Pretty much.

Also, at this point in his career, I would have to rank Dwight slightly ahead of Zo (extremely comparable peaks/primes, but Howard's career -I mean quality, all-star level seasons - is already longer than Mourning's). Frankly, I even rank peak and prime Howard as slightly better than peak and prime Mourning (despite the fact that I like Alonzo much more than Dwight, and I would take him on my team before DH, because of his attitude).

colts18 wrote:What about Alonzo Mourning? He was 2nd in MVP twice and won 2 DPOY over Peak Shaq and Mutombo. I can't have Mutombo ahead of Zo when no one considered Mutombo on that level. I bet even John Thompson would laugh at the suggestion that Mutombo was better than Zo.

If this is about college careers, I guess I'm voting for Christian Laettner here....

Vote: Kevin Durant



But I encourage someone asking me direct questions as to spark discussion


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colts18 wrote:What about Alonzo Mourning? He was 2nd in MVP twice and won 2 DPOY over Peak Shaq and Mutombo. I can't have Mutombo ahead of Zo when no one considered Mutombo on that level. I bet even John Thompson would laugh at the suggestion that Mutombo was better than Zo.

ftr, both of these guys have risen considerably in my estimation over time. I certainly agree that as impressive as Mutombo is though, the 2-way nature of Zo makes him clearly the better player. His longevity though is a really major issue.

RSCD3_ wrote:Vote: Kevin Durant

Spoiler:

Second highest peak on the board

3 time MVP runner up

MVP over prime LeBron

Led his team to the finals in only his 5th year by beating the only 3 WCF champions since 1999 going 12-4

Great scoring finals 30+ ppg on 55 % shooting, he was one dimensional but that one dimension is just so good as that was against a top Miami defense

Elite scorer more valuable in that department than anyone left on this list ( English, Baylor or Gervin )

Underrated man defender because of length and long space eating strides

GOAT Level month of January - probably a top 8 month of all time ( RS )

Played 7 years but 5.5 seasons of high impact and 4 near MVP or MVP level seasons

Arguably highest peak left, and the only other contender had only around 3 impact seasons (Walton)

But I encourage someone asking me direct questions as to spark discussion

I'll ask a few in the name of trying to start some Durant conversation.

What is the first year you would consider Durant an elite scorer? An elite player?
What is the first year you would consider Durant to be "a complete player"?
How would you rate his overall playoff performance?
Are there any weaknesses that you think should be brought up in evaluating Durant?
Obviously Durant is a great great scorer. Can you put that in some more context for me?

And also I voted for Deke last thread so I have him higher than Zo(and Dwight) atm. Would really love some of the Zo supporters to detail why they feel like he had the superior career to Deke. I know he was the superior scorer, but Zo wasn't that special as an offensive player, so I know there is more to it. Would love to see some posts on him as well.

Also in case anyone wants to know who has the highest PER left since win shares has been used a lot

RS top 20 left

1. Neil Johnston 24.69
2. Kevin Durant 24.53
3. Yao Ming 23.02
4. Tracy McGrady 22.13
5. Dwight Howard 22.09
6. Amare Stoudemire 22.03
7. Dolph Schayes 21.98
8. Bob Lanier 21.69
9. Dominque Wilkins 21.56
10. Clyde Lovette 21.55

11. Adrian Dantley 21.51
12. Pau Gasol 21.49
13. Harry Gallatin 21.48
14. Manu Ginobili 21.46
15. George Gervin 21.38 *
16. Dan issel 21.37
17. Alonzo Mourning 21.24
18. Carmelo Anthony 21.17
19. Chris Webber 20.94
20. Allen Iverson 20.92



*PER lowered when combined with NBA )






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Chuck Texas wrote:

RSCD3_ wrote:Vote: Kevin Durant

Spoiler:

Second highest peak on the board

3 time MVP runner up

MVP over prime LeBron

Led his team to the finals in only his 5th year by beating the only 3 WCF champions since 1999 going 12-4

Great scoring finals 30+ ppg on 55 % shooting, he was one dimensional but that one dimension is just so good as that was against a top Miami defense

Elite scorer more valuable in that department than anyone left on this list ( English, Baylor or Gervin )

Underrated man defender because of length and long space eating strides

GOAT Level month of January - probably a top 8 month of all time ( RS )

Played 7 years but 5.5 seasons of high impact and 4 near MVP or MVP level seasons

Arguably highest peak left, and the only other contender had only around 3 impact seasons (Walton)

But I encourage someone asking me direct questions as to spark discussion

I'll ask a few in the name of trying to start some Durant conversation.

What is the first year you would consider Durant an elite scorer? An elite player?
What is the first year you would consider Durant to be "a complete player"?
How would you rate his overall playoff performance?
Are there any weaknesses that you think should be brought up in evaluating Durant?
Obviously Durant is a great great scorer. Can you put that in some more context for me?

Elite scorer 2009
Elite Player 2010
Complete player 2012


Playoff wise his scoring holds up pretty well he gets to the line at about the same rate (9.2 vs 9.0 in the PS) and his scoring drops .4 ppg and 0.034 TS% falling from 29.3 to 28.9 and 61.7 to 58.3

Nothing too drastic here

Rebounding and passing wise

Rebounding

0.8 ORB/6.7 DRB/7.5 TRB ( RS )
1.0 ORB/7.3 DRB/8.2 TRB ( PS )

2.4/18.9/11.1 rebounding %'s ( RS )
2.7/19.3/11.2 rebounding %'s ( PS )

So his rebounding seems to increase a little bit in the playoffs

How about his ball handling, assisting and turnovers

3.9 assists / 3.4 turnovers
31.4 USG%/18.5 AST%/12.4 TO%
( RS )

3.8 assists / 3.3 assists
30.5 USG%/18.0 AST%/11.8 TO%

( PS )

So his playmaking doesn't really fall apart in the playoffs

In fact it seems that seems that the only thing that falls down in his scoring



And everything else remains the same, he is still an above average rebounder for his position

He is a capable ball handler whose role in playmaking has increased alongside with increase in skills/vision so he wasn't hurting his team by biting off more than he could chew early on.

His playoff performance is pretty good relative to his competition here, it doesn't point to him as a scorer who feeds on the weak during the regular season. The only clear player above him in surpassing their playoff expectation based on regular season is Reggie miller.

weaknesses

Longevity in this comparison

would have to be mainly on help defense yet he has improved every single year



Some may say his " willingness to let Westbrook use a lot of possessions indicates lack of " killer instinct" and ability to take over games

but I consider it a double edge sword as Kevin Durant has always been good as an off ball player and that speaks to his portability, the fact that he is able to play off ball with ball dominant players and still make a large impact a lot of that due to good shooting/off ball skills and general high BBALL iq

I remember many people advocating Dirk's Gravity of Pulling away defenders from the rim and Durant at the four has his own nebulous abilities that allow slashers to attack the rim/ would be great for any big who could score in the low post ( which the thunder haven't had in their last 6 years )

I'd also like to remind the People who kevin Durant's coach is and how bland of an offensive system it is yet he is still able to put up numbers








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RSCD3_ wrote:Also in case anyone wants to know who has the highest PER left since win shares has been used a lot
...
15. George Gervin 21.38 *
...
*PER lowered when combined with NBA

I was pretty sure you were wrong on this so I looked it up on B-R.com.

George Gervin PER in ABA 20.3
George Gervin PER in NBA 21.7

So no, his PER is not lowered when combined with NBA