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So like many of you guys probably are I'm a fan of this show and I was happy to see its season debut yesterday.

Ernie was moderating of course and the panel includes - Kenny, Isiah, Reggie, Barkley, Webber, Billups, and Shaq.
Here's the video in its entirity if you haven't seen it.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOEimrfJuaY&index[/youtube]

Here's a summary if you don't want to watch it all.
First unanimous 6:
Duncan
Kobe
Lebron
AI
KG
Dirk

Second unanimous picks:
Dominique Wilkins
Bob Mcadoo
Webber (picked expect Kenny brought up Nash before finally agreeing)

Mentions:
Paul Pierce
Wade
Reggie (He took himself off the list)
T-Mac (Shaq kept throwing names out I think half-jokingly like Penny and GP)
Nash (Barkley accused him of being a "systems player" and Reggie said if he were a GM he'd pick Nash after Kidd and GP in a line-up)

Finally they agreed to the ten by giving Webber the boot and adding Durant and Wade.
So the ten are Duncan/Kobe/Lebron/AI/KG/Dirk/Wilkins/Mcadoo/Durant/Wade

Thoughts?
I thought the whole Webber discussion was pretty hilariously uncomfortable. I get the feeling that he wouldn't have been in the discussion if he weren't sitting there in the room. Also, I feel like there is a disconnect between fans and actual NBA players in regards to Nash. I have this feeling that a little bit underneath the surface a lot of players have a different opinion of Nash then the opinion they state publicly.

Only caught part of it. Not comfortable with AI being unanimous.

I'm not very low on him, and think he was a high impact offensive player, but I'm not sure if it makes much sense for him to be a lock given the lofty company, from watching his entire career.

He might indeed be (I'm not sure, would have to think about it) in my next 10, but I don't think he's a lock. Agree on the other five in that group though. The other five forming a top 10 are tough.

Id pick Nash ten out of ten times over Allen Iverson. I guess looking cool is more important than actual impact

Also Charles Barkley once again proves his utter lack of basketball knowledge and hypocrisy in criticizing Jordan

I hope he becomes a GM and just exposes himself for the knowledge he professes to know.

But c'mon guys perpetuating Nash stereotypes while glorifying iverson for his chuckery smh



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Yeah, TBH, I was a little uncomfortable with AI as well.

I feel like guards in general tend to get a tad bit overrated vs their actual impact on the game. The reason?
Probably because guards are more relatable in terms of their height and what we can (poorly) attempt to mimic in a pick-up game. Guard play is just more dynamic than bigs and for most casual fans it's just more exciting to watch. For actual impact on the game I'd take any great big over any guard not named Michael Jordan.

No doubt AI was huge in terms of a cultural impact on the game but I think his basketball impact tends to get overrated. For once I'd like to hear a pro-AI argument that doesn't include the phrase "best pound-for-pound player in NBA history."

Webber absolutely deserves mention
http://followpics.co/kevin-garnett-chri ... be-bryant/
He is the forgotten man of the era. He had a winning record against the other greats. Elevating his teams as the number one option. While posting amazing stats.
He is one of those players that perception has more impact on the fans view then what actually happened on the court.

Shaq, Billups and Barkley obviously have something personal against Wade. No doubt in my mind.

I happened to catch this last night. The one thing that really stuck out to me was when shaq said something to the effect of, "Do you think nash really deserved those MVPs, or were they sympathy MVPs?"

A) Shaq was nash's teammate and actually had a short resurgence in PHX individually

B) I'm not surprised that he made the comment given how much of an egomaniac he is, but it was still pretty weak.

I was caught off guard by all the hating on pippen (although it was led by isiah). Couldn't help but laugh.

RSCD3_ wrote:Also Charles Barkley once again proves his utter lack of basketball knowledge and hypocrisy in criticizing Jordan

What did he say about Jordan? I must've missed it.

As much as I like Open Court and think it's great entertainment you have to remember that the players have their own biases and agendas. Take their opinions with a grain of salt. Sometimes they will give good opinions and insights and other times you can tell that they really dislike a particular player lol.

Clyde Frazier wrote:

RSCD3_ wrote:Also Charles Barkley once again proves his utter lack of basketball knowledge and hypocrisy in criticizing Jordan

What did he say about Jordan? I must've missed it.

It's not in this video I'm stating how he used to constant rib on Jordan's failings as a manager when the bobcats were doing really bad

I think it caused the competitive MJ to quit talking to him for a while


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The them I saw most was that the players there valued those being the number one option on their team.
Bill Walton being a 50 greatest opened up the idea of talent over longevity with Grant, Penny, TMac being mentioned.
One thing I saw was that their arguments were given reasons and not just stated.

Clyde Frazier wrote:"Do you think nash really deserved those MVPs, or were they sympathy MVPs?"

Well I think he didn't... but neither did Shaq.

Don't think I'm gonna learn anything for watching that vid.

RSCD3_ wrote:

Clyde Frazier wrote:

RSCD3_ wrote:Also Charles Barkley once again proves his utter lack of basketball knowledge and hypocrisy in criticizing Jordan

What did he say about Jordan? I must've missed it.

It's not in this video I'm stating how he used to constant rib on Jordan's failings as a manager when the bobcats were doing really bad

I think it caused the competitive MJ to quit talking to him for a while


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Oh, yeah i've heard him say that stuff before. Thought it was something specific from that show. I don't think barkley would make a good GM, but he was more reasonable than some of the other guys on that panel.

fpliii wrote:Only caught part of it. Not comfortable with AI being unanimous.

I'm not very low on him, and think he was a high impact offensive player, but I'm not sure if it makes much sense for him to be a lock given the lofty company, from watching his entire career.

He might indeed be (I'm not sure, would have to think about it) in my next 10, but I don't think he's a lock. Agree on the other five in that group though. The other five forming a top 10 are tough.

Yeah, he obviously doesn't belong with the top 5 (Duncan, KG, Kobe, Dirk, LeBron) - these are all top 15 all-time level players, Iverson is IMO just top 50. Anyway, I'd still definitely include AI among the next 5 players - sure, here on the PC board we may criticize him quite a bit, and generally be lower on him that an average NBA fan outside of the RealGM, but his accomplishments (like 4 scoring titles) and cultural impact/impact on guard skills (ballhandling) are undeniable. We have to realize that our way of evaluating players is vastly different than the Open Court guys'.

RSCD3_ wrote:Id pick Nash ten out of ten times over Allen Iverson. I guess looking cool is more important than actual impact

Also Charles Barkley once again proves his utter lack of basketball knowledge and hypocrisy in criticizing Jordan

I hope he becomes a GM and just exposes himself for the knowledge he professes to know.

But c'mon guys perpetuating Nash stereotypes while glorifying iverson for his chuckery smh

Nash is a lock, he'd absolutely be the 6th guy on my list after TD, KG, LBJ, Kobe and Dirk. Multiple time MVP should always get in, no question.


I'm really glad that Alex English was mentioned by a few guys (even by Shaq, pretty surprising) - they just seemed to forget about him when it came to conclusions...Still a criminally underrated (or more like overlooked) player, by many people. He should always be mentioned in the very same breath as Wilkins.

I like Isiah a bit more now, seeing how insistent he was, mentioning Pierce.

As far as C-Webb - personally, I think Kidd, Payton, Ray, probably even Carter, are more deserving than him (Carter vs Webber is pretty close - I'd lean towards VC), and among PFs, I'd probably take Pau over him.

The next 10:

Griffin
Westbrook
Curry
Durant
Harden
Davis
Wiggins
Parker
Embiid
Noel

They did it in THIS era. I'd already take Wiggins over Sam Jones and Michael Jordan.

Why the hell A.I. is so high and Wade just barely made the list? Jesus Christ.

Zasterror wrote:Why the hell A.I. is so high and Wade just barely made the list? Jesus Christ.

Yeah in all seriousness, the disrespect for Wade from part of that panel was ridiculous. Kenny was right...outside of Jordan and maybe Kobe, who was better, especially at their peak? Who accomplished more? Depending on if West is a PG or SG, maybe Logo. That's it.

Wade and Nash are definite locks to me. Iverson vs. Kidd vs. Ray vs. Reggie vs. Pierce is where it gets tough.

Zasterror wrote:Why the hell A.I. is so high and Wade just barely made the list? Jesus Christ.

I don't get it either. Iverson may have the edge in terms of longevity (so far at least), and he has the MVP, albeit a very arguable one driven by the narrative back then. Today there's almost no discussion that 2001's Shaq and Duncan were better players than him, while (I think not only in my opinion) Iverson benefitted much from a very weak conference and a bit of luck. In 2001 people thought that it was a breakthrough for that little guy with a team that finally clicked, but the following years showed that it was a fluke. He had several equally good seasons, but he couldn't make the Sixers successful anymore.
I don't care too much for those scoring titles as they came at the cost of taking way more shots than everybody else: Between 1998-99 and 2004-05 he took 11.154 FGAs while no other player had more than 9.750 (Garnett) in that period. Scoring titles are almost inevitable doing so, but what are they worth in team sports when you can't make your team a true contender in most years by playing that way?

Wade's career isn't exactly as stellar as the ones of the very best players of all time, but he was the decisive player on the 2006 championship team with a superb finals round (not matter if with the help from refs or forcing them to give him the calls by playing that way), and an important player for two more titles. Without any doubt a great all-around player with an ultra high albeit short peak, and with only a lack of good shooting from the distance. Other than that there's no downside when regarding him as a player. OK, maybe being injury prone and missing a lot of games but that's the case with other players (Webber, and if that's no exclusion criterion for Walton, then it's none for anyone...), too.
I don't have a problem with Iverson being named as a candidate for the next 10 greatest, but unanimous while those guys argue about other equally good players is quite strange.

Duncan, Kobe, LeBron, KG and Dirk are obvious choices. After them it gets hard as there are many candidates battling for 5 remaining spots: Payton, Kidd, Nash, Wade, Iverson, Pierce, and Webber, arguably even Ray Allen and Reggie, and Durant, who is catching up in terms of accolades fast. He just needs two more All-NBA team nominations and will have the same collection of awards as Iverson including scoring titles (doing that by taking many shots, too, but at a lower rate - he never broke 21 FGAs/G in a season yet which is lower than Iverson's career average... - and a higher percentage than Iverson, so it's way more justified). Iverson will only lead him in All-Star teams then, but we know that those come due to popularity often. So Durant will join the list of obvious choices inevitably soon if his career will go on like in the last couple of years, especially when he wins a title. And there are those omitted guys from former times like Wilkins, McAdoo and English as well.

We had this discussion in the main board as well (unfortunately the topic is locked now), and I'm no fan of Webber as I think that he lacked true winning impact (the Kings were almost just as good without him as with him, as seen in the many games he missed - you don't see that with guys like Shaq, Duncan or Dirk... and the Warriors and Washington were far from being contenders, so he didn't make them true winners as seen with only 6 playoffs games with those team - all losses! He didn't make the playoffs for most years and didn't make it out of the first round. By that criterion, McGrady made almost all of his teams winners), so he's out for me.
My next 10 greats would be Duncan, Kobe, LeBron, Garnett, Dirk, Payton, Kidd, Nash, Wade and Durant. With Pierce, Iverson, Reggie (props to him for taking himself out), Wilkins and McAdoo just missing the cut.

And why was Shaq so against Wade? The man basically won an extra ring for him.

It's funny how unpopular Steve Nash was in that circle... Barkley was talking so much about Webber's impact... then downplays Nash, who actually made the Suns a constant contender (not in the Webber - GSW, WAS sense ).

Duncan
Garnett
Dirk
Kobe
Lebron
Wade
Nash
Kidd
Iverson
Durant

In no order, this would by my "next 10".