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penbeast0 wrote:Three different groups have my attention now:

Players with long, consistent careers . . . mainly wings: English, Dantley, Sam Jones, Vince Carter, etc. Robert Parish would fall into this group, so would Nique. Numbers say Dantley, my head says English, my heart says Jones, and eye test says Carter. Would like to see some comps between these guys.

Players with reasonable but not long careers and some peak seasons: Dave Cowens, Tracy McGrady, Kevin Johnson, Chauncey Billups.

Players with unreasonably short peaks but who were really extraordinary and special. Bill Walton, Connie Hawkins, Sidney Moncrief. Walton only had 1 year where he made it to the playoffs as a starter; Hawkins similarly only 1 great year though 1 pretty good year after reinventing his game following his first big knee injury; Moncrief 4-5 good years but not as good as the other two.

Vote: Alex English but willing to change my mind.

Owly wrote:Some guys I'm thinking of based on the numbers Parish, Lanier, Dantley.

But for the discussion:
Best at position within decade/on the long list radar if multiple players close to one another (though this is largely off the top of my head, a player being mentioned here doesn't mean he's better than all those that aren't just that he's probably closer to being the best not yet on the board for his time and position)

50's
C Neil Johnston (elite stats peak, won a title fwiw, hard to know about D and some team failures but Macauley was probably a worse defender imo).
PF Gallatin or Mikkelsen: Hard to split off the top of my head
SF Arizin (great peak, but in pre-shot clock, if allowing for hypotheticals his total career output would have been better if not for military service)
SG Sharman (big fan of his, deadly shooter, elite conditioning, based on peers he was a good defender and tough guy, and if you take his coaching as evidence it seems he had a high BBIQ)
PG Cousy (more efficient than we now tend to think, at least he was more accurate than most other 50s pgs, playoff fall off in title years possibly a issue)

Sneaky under the radar guy: 6th man Frank Ramsey. Very efficient on the wing for the era anyway and some huge playoffs

60s
C: Bellamy (the numbers pick with a high stats peak; but issues on D, reputation as a loser); Thurmond (the defense pick, but inefficient on O, and suffered injuries); maybe Beaty (underdog amongst this group, excellent ABA career)
PF: Howell (Lucas, Heinsohn, DeBusschere and Hawkins - if you put him at this position and this decade - all arguably in contention; but Howell quietly had the best numbers and - later - team success)
SF: Hagan (more consistent than Chet Walker and better than Twyman; has an amazing playoff peak and good career playoff numbers)
SG: Sam Jones (Greer is the only "name" guy as competition and looking at the metrics it is no competition; Greer stayed on court longer, but Jones was substantially better and so imo mooved the needle more despite the minute defecit)
PG: Wilkens (Guerin's peak slightly better but that was a one off, Wilkens was steady, smart etc and somehow once 2nd in MVP voting, though not 1st Team all-NBA. I've heard people argue for him as equivalent to and better than Jason Kidd. Still despite a name check here, not really on my radar).

70s
C: Lanier / Cowens (Doesn't quite have the peak of McAdoo, close enough and with a longevity edge. I know a some question his D based on team performance. Still I've heard positive things for some years at least. Cowens has big historical status with MVP, 2 titles. Metrics see nothing special. Aesthetically from the bits I've seen I like him, but hard to know what to think)
PF: Hayes (based on longevity and possibly D though hard to be confident how much impact he had. Negative intangiables aside he's a volume scorer who has five primarily 70s power forwards posting a better PER season, Haywood, McGinnis, Bob Kauffman, Wicks, Mickey Johnson, and Larry Kenon with a season equal. Okay not a perfect measure, and not always better by a large margin, but I think his peak is really low for this point in the discussion which limits the value of that longevity)
SF: Bobby Jones (Cunningham the bigger name, but position and decade debates aside, Jones rates awesome by the metrics, plays D, passes and doesn't make mistakes which makes him a superb fit for a good team)
SG: Bing (despite peaks being somewhat outliers, possibly due to injuries, he's the best combination of peak, which Westphal and Thompson also have, and more longevity based added value, where Monroe perhaps competes. I think Westphal would be my 2nd choice. Again Bing is not necessarily on my radar now though, a big drop off in that era after Gervin)
PG: Archibald (Easily. Monster peak. Career added value might be close if not accounting for the value of a high peak, for instance Calvin Murphy has slightly more career Win Shares, but it's hard to win a title by being just above average for a long time)

Okay ... Not got time to go through this in detail so quick glance for the rest

80s
Parish then Sikma
Nance (strong career numbers, arguably comparable to McHale)
probably Dantley, then maybe some version of English, Wilkins and Marques Johnson
Moncrief then I guess Walter Davis
Maurice Cheeks / Gus Williams

90s
Mutombo
Horace Grant/Kemp
Hill (then maybe Schrempf)
Hornacek, Richmond, Dumars in some order
KJ (then Porter, Price and T Hardaway then perhaps Strickland, though Penny and Brandon have huge peaks)

post 2000 more rough and ready here trying to rememeber who has gone and my database isn't super up to date (including career EWA-type numbers that are quite old)
Ming
Brand/Gasol/Bosh (/Love?) no real order. Amare? (not a fan, but crazy numbers for his peak)
Marion (Kirlenko? Peja?)
Ginobili (Roy?)
Billups (then Rose, Parker, Westbrook)

Might have missed people if I misremembered who's in. But there's somewhat of a longlist of candidates.

trex_8063 wrote:Wow, seemed like Reed kinda came out of no where to take that one.

Anyway, I'll likely be voting for Parish once again, though also giving some consideration to Elvin Hayes, as well as Iverson, Cousy, Cowens, Wilkins, English and perhaps even McGrady. Will post more thoroughly later.

EDIT: Since McAdoo was mentioned, he'd come up for me immediately after the above-mentioned fellows (as would Pau Gasol, fwiw).

Clyde Frazier wrote:

penbeast0 wrote:Three different groups have my attention now:

Players with long, consistent careers . . . mainly wings: English, Dantley, Sam Jones, Vince Carter, etc. Robert Parish would fall into this group, so would Nique. Numbers say Dantley, my head says English, my heart says Jones, and eye test says Carter. Would like to see some comps between these guys.

Players with reasonable but not long careers and some peak seasons: Dave Cowens, Tracy McGrady, Kevin Johnson, Chauncey Billups.

Players with unreasonably short peaks but who were really extraordinary and special. Bill Walton, Connie Hawkins, Sidney Moncrief. Walton only had 1 year where he made it to the playoffs as a starter; Hawkins similarly only 1 great year though 1 pretty good year after reinventing his game following his first big knee injury; Moncrief 4-5 good years but not as good as the other two.

Vote: Alex English but willing to change my mind.

What are your general thoughts on mcadoo?

Moonbeam wrote:

trex_8063 wrote:Wow, seemed like Reed kinda came out of no where to take that one.

Anyway, I'll likely be voting for Parish once again, though also giving some consideration to Elvin Hayes, as well as Iverson, Cousy, Cowens, Wilkins, English and perhaps even McGrady. Will post more thoroughly later.

EDIT: Since McAdoo was mentioned, he'd come up for me immediately after the above-mentioned fellows (as would Pau Gasol, fwiw).

Where do you have Dantley? How about Mutombo and Sam Jones?

Dave Heeren wrote in 1987:

Remember the Elvin Hayes incident? During the 1978 playoffs, the Championship series between Washington and Seattle reached the seventh game. Rick Barry, whose Golden State team had not qualified for the playoffs that year, was announcing that game and doing his usual candid job. He pointed out that one of the referees had a short temper and that he was especially apt to make hasty foul calls against Hayes, whom he did not like because Hayes did a lot of complaining about his calls.

Hayes, who had been the series' outstanding player to that point, picked up his fourth foul during the third quarter and argued before going to the bench. The same official whistled him for his fifth and sixth fouls in quick succession after he reentered the game early in the fourth quarter. Replays showed that Hayes had not committed either of the fouls. On one of them there had been no physical contact at all.

But Hayes was out of the game, and a vindictive referee could have deprived Washington of a league championship becaus the Bullets were ahead by 8 or 10 points when Hayes went out. Paced by Bob Dandridge, the Bullets did hold on to win. But Hayes was deprived of an award he wanted and deserved. Since he had not played during the closing minutes of the championship game, the championship series MVP trophy was given to Wes Unseld. Unseld, then in the twilight of his career, had produced little offense for the Bullets and had been victimized by Seattle center Marvin Webster for 30 points, or a basket more or less, in the final game.

Chuck Texas wrote:Official Vote: Mutombo

Still think he is clearly the best defensive player on the board.

A decade of being the dominant defensive big man while playing in an era where there were a number of really good defensive bigs really says volumes to me about how good he was.

Had some really great playoff runs-- 94 in Denver upsetting Seattle, 97 in Atlanta, and of course 2001 with Philly where an argument can be made that he was more responsible than even AI for their run to the Finals.

Tremendous rebounder.

Great, great, shotblocker, but his impact goes way beyond just the blocks--he was a true deterrent to teams considering going into the lane.

ronnymac2 wrote:To those who may not have McGrady on their radar yet, what questions/concerns do you have about his game?

If he's not on your radar due to longevity concerns, I totally understand that. I'm asking if anybody has concerns about his impact/skillset during his prime.