Did a year-by-year evaluation of with/without impact during his prime years (in which he missed any games: '99-'02, '04-'06) in Philly, and compared to that of Kevin Johnson during his prime years in PHX. Results were thus:
[spoiler]
AVERAGE effect of having Iverson vs. not having him over these years:NOT weighted for games played/missed+7.3 ppg
+1.1% TS%
+2.3 ORtg
+4.61 SRS
WEIGHTED for games played+7.4 ppg
+1.2% TS%
+2.5 ORtg
+4.21 SRS
Weighted for games missed+7.1 ppg
+0.8% TS%
+1.4 ORtg
+2.90 SRS
39-59 record (.398) without, 251-193 record (.565) with (avg of +13.7 wins per 82-game season).
AVERAGE effect of having Kevin Johnson vs. not having him.NOT weighted for # of games played per season+7.1 ppg.
+3.0% TS%.
+4.7 ORtg.
+4.01 SRS.
Weighted for # of games played+7.8 ppg
+3.3% TS%
+5.2 ORtg
+4.02 SRS
Weighted for # of games MISSED+4.1 ppg
+1.9% TS%
+2.7 ORtg
+3.98 SRS
79-60 (.568) record w/o, 396-203 (.661) record with: +7.6 wins per 82-game season.
Can show the work, year-by-year, if requested. Gist is that KJ appears to have a larger offensive effect, but overall (effect on SRS) his impact on team success appears no better than Iverson's in Philadelphia. Both affected a roughly +4 SRS change on their respective teams. Based on effect on win% (wins added), Iverson---at a glance---has a sizable advantage; however, I don't think that's reliable as wins are more difficult to "add" the nearer the top you are (i.e. elevating an otherwise poor 32/33-win team to a decent 46/47-win team---what Iverson was typically doing throughout his prime in Philly---is likely no larger an accomplishment that elevating an already good 46/47-win team to a very good 54-win team). SRS, I feel, is more reliable.
I was asked about Iverson's effect in Denver. I did not figure the with/without in '07, because it was going to require too much work (given the season is split between two franchises, so cannot simply reference the teams' season stats for comparison); and he didn't miss any games in '08. However, in response I noted that '08 represent Iverson's career best RAPM (and '07 was his 5th-best); his RAPM was significantly higher than Melo's in both years.
On the topic of
RAPM:
Among Iverson's apparent primary competitors for this spot, none of the others have RAPM data available. In the last thread I showed a little RAPM comparison to Pau Gasol (who took #53):
Below are comparisons of non-scaled PI* RAPM (*NPI for '01):
Best 3 yearsGasol: +7.74
Iverson: +6.48
Best 5 yearsGasol: +10.22
Iverson: +9.89
Best 7 yearsGasol: +11.95
Iverson: +11.69
Best 10 yearsGasol: +12.14
Iverson: +12.78His 3, 5, 7, and 10-year marks are all significantly better than Melo's, too, fwiw (since I mentioned him earlier)
Here is a look at
PER, WS/48, WS (both rs and playoff for all), Per 100 volume stats, VORP, and BPM, comparing Iverson to four of his top competitors for this spot (KJ, Lanier, Nique, and English), as well as the last two players voted in (Gasol---thru '14 only---and Cowens):
career rs PER1. Bob Lanier: 21.7
2. Dominique Wilkins: 21.6
3. Pau Gasol: 21.5
4. Allen Iverson: 20.9
5. Kevin Johnson: 20.7
6. Alex English: 19.9
7. Dave Cowens: 17.0
Peak PER1. Allen Iverson: 25.9
2. Bob Lanier: 24.8
3. Dominique Wilkins: 24.6
4. Pau Gasol: 24.14
5. Alex English: 24.12
6. Kevin Johnson: 23.7
7. Dave Cowens: 19.3
career playoff PER1. Allen Iverson: 21.2
2. Bob Lanier: 20.81
3. Pau Gasol: 20.78
4. Alex English: 19.9
5. Kevin Johnson: 19.1
6. Dominique Wilkins: 18.7
7. Dave Cowens: 16.6
career rs WS/481. Kevin Johnson: .178
2. Bob Lanier: .175
3. Pau Gasol: .168
4. Dominique Wilkins: .148
5. Dave Cowens: .140
6. Alex English: .127
7. Allen Iverson: .126
Peak WS/481. Pau Gasol: .232
2. Bob Lanier: .227
3. Kevin Johnson: .220
4. Dominique Wilkins: .197
5. Allen Iverson: .190
6. Dave Cowens: .173
7. Alex English: .166
career playoff WS/481. Bob Lanier: .175
2. Pau Gasol: .160
3. Alex English: .129
4. Dave Cowens: .119
5. Kevin Johnson: .117
6. Allen Iverson: .109
7. Dominique Wilkins: .079
career rs WS1. Dominique Wilkins: 117.5
2. Bob Lanier: 117.1
3. Pau Gasol: 113.1
4. Alex English: 100.7
5. Allen Iverson: 99.0
6. Kevin Johnson: 92.8
7. Dave Cowens: 86.3
career playoff WS1. Pau Gasol: 13.5
2. Kevin Johnson: 9.44
3. Dave Cowens: 9.38
4. Bob Lanier: 8.6
5. Allen Iverson: 7.3
6. Alex English: 6.5
7. Dominique Wilkins: 3.6
career rs Per 100: Pts+Reb+Ast+Stl+Blk-Tov1. Dominique Wilkins: 46.6
2. Pau Gasol: 44.9
3. Bob Lanier: ~44.7
4. Allen Iverson: 44.6
5. Alex English: 41.9
6. Kevin Johnson: 41.4
7. Dave Cowens: ~39.3
career BPM1. Bob Lanier: +4.7
2. Pau Gasol: +3.4
3. Dave Cowens: +3.0
4. Allen Iverson: +2.4
5. Dominique Wilkins: +2.3
6. Kevin Johnson: +2.2
7. Alex English: +1.7
VORP1. Bob Lanier: est. 50-52
2. Allen Iverson: 43.4
3. Pau Gasol: 42.0 (thru ‘14)
4. Dominique Wilkins: 41.1
5. Dave Cowens: est. 37
6. Alex English: 34.6
7. Kevin Johnson: 26.7
I also think it's important to note that nearly all of the above metrics are either directly "per minute" stats (PER, WS/48), or indirectly "per minute" (RAPM, BPM, Per 100 stats......all per x possessions, and the more minutes played the more relative possessions played). That in mind, here's some mpg info:
career rs MPG1. Allen Iverson: 41.1
2. Dave Cowens: 38.6
3. Pau Gasol: 35.6
4. Dominique Wilkins: 35.5
5. Kevin Johnson: 34.1
6. Bob Lanier: 33.5
7. Alex English: 31.9
career playoff MPG1. Allen Iverson: 45.1
2. Dave Cowens: 42.3
3. Dominique Wilkins: 38.8
4. Pau Gasol: 38.6
5. Kevin Johnson: 36.9
6. Alex English: 35.7
7. Bob Lanier: 35.2
Other thing I'd give consideration to while looking at the above numbers is strength of era: I’d call it a near wash between KJ, Iverson, Wilkins, and Gasol for playing in the toughest era, followed closely by English, then Lanier, with Cowens in the weakest era.
Now, if we were to also add in some more subjective measures which are more media-driven......for instance, MVP Award Shares rank:
Allen Iverson: 24th
Dave Cowens: 29th
Dominique Wilkins: 38th
Bob Lanier: 52nd
Alex English: 75th
Kevin Johnson: 101st
Pau Gasol: never received MVP votes
Accolades, too, would place Iverson at the top of this heap. Depending on how much weight you put in things like that (or really, if you put
any weight in these things), it could easily place him at the front of these seven players.
But yeah: media....meh. Hopefully this forum isn't overly media-influenced, so....here's a look at RealGM RPoY Shares rank (bearing in mind that *this forum isn't overly appreciative of Iverson, too *DISCLAIMER: am NOT crying "bias" with that statement, but simply pointing out the criteria trends on this forum do not favor someone like Iverson):
Dave Cowens: 43rd
Bob Lanier: 48th
Allen Iverson: 55th
Dominique Wilkins: 58th
Kevin Johnson: 91st
Alex English: 107th
Pau Gasol: never received any RealGM RPoY votes
Strength of era considerations apply to these things as well.
There's some negative media spin which has dogged Iverson since late in his career, which I think is well addressed in the article Joao Saraiva included in his post, quoted below:
Joao Saraiva wrote:Vote for Allen Iverson once more. I didn't get to vote for anyone else so far.
"Iverson not only won the 2001 regular season MVP--though I think that Shaquille O'Neal deserved the honor that year--but he received at least one MVP vote in eight of his 13 full seasons. Iverson won the 1997 Rookie of the Year award and two All-Star MVPs while making the All-Star team 10 years in a row (2000-09). Iverson earned seven All-NBA selections, including three First Team nods.
ESPN noted that Iverson is one of only three players in NBA history who averaged at least 25 ppg, five apg and two spg--the others are Michael Jordan and Jerry West; of course, steals have only been officially recorded since 1973-74 in the NBA, so West's "career" average only includes 81 steals in 31 games in his final season, which means that in the past 35 years the only two players to average 25-5-2 during full length careers are Jordan and Iverson.
Numbers rarely tell the whole story but check out Iverson's NBA/ABA ranks in some key categories: fourth in career mpg (41.4), sixth in career scoring average (27.0 ppg), sixth in career spg (2.2), 11th in career free throws made (6277) and 22nd in career points (24,020)--and Iverson stepped up his game in the postseason, ranking second in career ppg (29.7, trailing only Michael Jordan), third in mpg (45.1, trailing only legendary iron man centers Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell) and seventh in spg (2.07, just behind Jordan).
Now, let's put those statistics in historical perspective. Iverson lapped the field in career regular season points among the six foot and under set (Hall of Famer Calvin Murphy is second with 17,949)--but he also scored more career points than Charles Barkley, Robert Parish, Adrian Dantley, Elgin Baylor, Clyde Drexler, Gary Payton or Larry Bird! The regular season career mpg leader list is dominated by Hall of Fame big men like Chamberlain, Russell, Jerry Lucas and Bob Pettit, plus powerfully built swingmen Oscar Robertson, Elgin Baylor and LeBron James. Jerry West is the only other relatively small player in the top ten and he is a legit 6-3; Latrell Sprewell, a 6-5 shooting guard, rounds out the top 10.
The free throw numbers are a testament to Iverson's mental and physical toughness: he repeatedly drove to the hoop, crashed into players who were literally 100 pounds heavier than he is, accepted the punishment and made the free throws. You can legitimately question Iverson's shot selection at times but you can never question his heart, his toughness or his will to win.
Iverson's defense is often berated but he was a two-time Big East Defensive Player of the Year at Georgetown and his steals numbers in the NBA attest to the fact that he certainly put forth some effort at that end of the court despite the huge offensive load that he carried. Iverson was not a lock down defender but he proved under Coach Larry Brown in Philadelphia that he could be a cog on a very good defensive team and lead that team to the NBA Finals.
Iverson won four NBA scoring titles, matching 6-7 Hall of Famer George Gervin and exceeding every other player in pro basketball history except for Jordan (10) and Chamberlain (seven). Iverson won as many scoring titles as Kobe Bryant, LeBron James and Dwyane Wade combined! It is certainly true that Iverson did not shoot a great percentage from the field but TNT commentator Doug Collins consistently made the excellent observation that because Iverson drew so much attention with his bold forays to the hoop his misses often turned into excellent offensive rebounding opportunities for his teammates.
Many players who attempt 18-20 or more field goals per game get labeled as "selfish gunners" (though no one says that about LeBron James or Dwyane Wade). I have often expressed justifiable skepticism about how assists are officially recorded but the assist still remains the only statistic we have to quantify passing and it is worth noting that Iverson ranked in the top ten in the NBA in that category four different times, amassing a career average of 6.2 apg--better than Walt Frazier, Dave Bing and Chauncey Billups, among others.
Iverson and Billups will always be linked, of course, because Detroit's trade of Billups and Antonio McDyess to Denver for Iverson in November 2008 seems--in retrospect--to be the beginning of the end of Iverson's career. Much has been written about that trade and its aftermath--and most of what has been written is garbage. Let's dispel a few myths:
1) Contrary to revisionist history, Iverson did not "fail" in Denver: he ranked seventh in scoring and eighth in assists in 2006-07 and third in scoring and ninth in assists in 2007-08. The Nuggets made the playoffs both years, including a 50 win season in 2007-08 that was the best regular season performance by that franchise since 1987-88. In 2007, the Nuggets lost in the first round of the playoffs to the eventual champion Spurs, winning one more playoff game against San Antonio than LeBron James' Eastern Conference champions did in the NBA Finals. In 2008, the Nuggets were swept in the first round by the eventual Western Conference champion Lakers; Iverson led the Nuggets in scoring and assists during that series, while Carmelo Anthony shot just .364 from the field and led the Nuggets in turnovers.
2) Although Billups certainly played very well for Denver last season, the "change in culture" in Denver largely consisted of big men Nene and Kenyon Martin getting healthy, Chris Andersen playing better than anyone expected and several Western Conference teams battling injuries to key players (Spurs, Mavs, Suns, Jazz), thus enabling the Nuggets to move up in the standings. The Nuggets exceeded their 2008 win total by four, blew by undermanned Dallas and New Orleans teams in the playoffs and then lost to the Lakers.
3) When the Pistons acquired Iverson, Joe Dumars said that the team would use Iverson's ability to create shots for himself and others to become a more explosive offensive team, particularly in the fourth quarter, a time when the Pistons too often became stagnant during the past few years in the playoffs. Early in the season, Iverson played brilliantly in a Detroit win over the Lakers but the Pistons inexplicably decided that Rodney Stuckey must be in the starting lineup no matter what. That meant that either Iverson or Richard Hamilton would have to come off of the bench, a role that neither All-Star player is accustomed to filling. It made no sense for the Pistons to bring in Iverson and not let him play the way that he is used to playing, especially when Dumars specifically said that he acquired Iverson to make the Pistons more explosive offensively.
There is merit to the argument that regardless of what was said to Iverson that he should do whatever his coach asks him to do--including coming off of the bench--but clearly Iverson is too honest and too prideful to do that; Iverson does not want to sit behind inferior players. I think that Iverson is still capable of averaging 20-plus ppg for a playoff team but the poor way that the Pistons treated him--and the defiant way that Iverson responded--has clearly lowered Iverson's perceived value. The Memphis experiment was obviously doomed from the start and the less that is said about that brief moment in his career the better.
It is bitterly ironic that in the immediate wake of Iverson's retirement announcement, Iverson's name was one of just six--the others being Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, LeBron James and Shaquille O'Neal--mentioned during ESPN's NBA Shootaround as a candidate for "Player of the Decade." Love him or hate him, there is no denying Iverson's colossal impact on NBA history."
By David Friedman.
Found it very interesting to see the points about Iverson with Denver, and also some other aspects.
However in terms of Iverson's positive impact I think it has all been said: trex made some awesome points about it but some people here choose to ignore that. Definitely had a better impact than Dantley for example. And I'm not saying bad about Dantley, I actually thought he was a great player and one of the few I'd see as a possibly ranking over Allen Iverson in the multiple run offs he had...
I have no problem with people voting for someone other than Iverson here (Lanier is looking more formidable the longer I look at him). But given all of the above, I cannot fathom a sound reasoning for him to not even be in the discussion (which seems to be your implication).
One could disregard all subjective opinion, and all subjective and/or media-driven indicators (like accolades and MVP award shares, etc).......using the above
objective metrics
only, Iverson is very clearly at least "in the mix" among these guys.
