RealGM

I feel this is a subject very rarely discussed on this board and yet has tremendous significance in evaluating big men in general. The well known distintion of this board of horizontal and vertical defense has a lot to do with that significance. While being a great vertical defender makes most bigs DPOY candidates due to blocks and post defense, horizontal defense is completely left out of the debates more often than not as it is not a part of the boxscore. Pick and roll defense in particular is probably the most important aspect of horizontal defense and largely the reason why people tend to be surprised when somebody shows up as a great defender without rep to back it up.

I feel this thread could potentially be very informative due to the fact that this area has been largely unexplored by anybody and pick and roll defense is very rarely used as a tie-breaker or any sort of argument in player comparisons... that is despite the fact of huge importance of pnr which we are all aware of. Possibly that is why some of the best pick and roll defenders are not getting the credit they deserve.

To spark the discussion I will mention some potential candidates going by eras...

60s
Russell
Reed
Thurmond?

70s
Cowens
Walton
Bobby Jones
Unseld?
Hayes?

80s
McHale
Rodman
Bird?
Terry Cummings?

90s
Hakeem
D-Rob
Horace Grant
Dikembe Mutombo?
Shawn Kemp?

00s
KG
Ben Wallace
Vlade Divac
Josh Smith
Duncan
Rasheed Wallace
Varejao
Bogut?
Amir Johnson?

Who are your top-15 pick and roll defenders ever and why?

This is an interesting topic, and very hard to accurately predict. One thing is almost a given: the best of the best are almost certainly post 2000 players. Even the 80s/90s Jazz only used it about 30% of the time, if I recall (old info) correctly. Many teams do it far more now, so players and coaches are far more familiar and versed in its application and countering now.

The Bad Boys ran/invented much of todays pick n pop/roll offense and against them Jack Sikma and Hakeem seemed to be the best of the 80s. DRob was very effective as well with his mobility but he never had anyone else that could play defense.

I thought Tyson Chandler from 2008-2012 was really good for being a true C. DeAndre Jordan's pick-n-roll defense was really important in slowing down Steph Curry for a few games in last year's playoffs. Cousins, Drummond, and Davis have tremendous potential to be dominant pick-n-roll defenders. Shawn Marion can pretty much guard anybody when it's his man setting the pick. Taj Gibson is awesome.

For older guys, Dave Debusschere is pretty much a prototype. I feel like Debusschere was like a high-volume version of Draymond Green, not just in pick-n-roll defense, but overall. Like Warspite mentioned, Sikma was good. Patrick Ewing was effective in his more mobile days.

Best ever is probably Garnett because the pick-n-roll was most prolific during his era.

Best of the modern era (and arguably of all-time), imo, is Kevin Garnett. Other guys who from the current era who come to mind are Joakim and Tyson Chandler. EDIT (after reading ronnymac2's post): Taj Gibson, absolutely. He's fantastic.
EDIT2: Chris Bosh has seemed reasonably good about it the last few years, too (I honestly can't remember if he was in his Toronto days). Not "best", but......just bringing up anyone who comes to mind. I'll stop now.

Dennis Rodman was pretty good, if memory serves.

Of old era guys: Bill Russell was the best, imo.

I'm trying to remember some of the 90's Knicks.....if, for instance, Charles Oakley was good at it. I suspect he was, but tbh my memory is failing me. I remember Horace Grant being pretty good at hedging and recovering.

Garnett is the best p&r defender I've ever seen. Hell, he's still pretty good in that regard, despite him turning 39 in a couple of months. But up until 2013 he was an elite pick n roll defender. His physical tools and size makes him perfect for defending the p&r.

Warspite wrote:The Bad Boys ran/invented much of todays pick n pop/roll offense and against them Jack Sikma and Hakeem seemed to be the best of the 80s. DRob was very effective as well with his mobility but he never had anyone else that could play defense.

I'm pretty sure that Oscar was the one who invented the pick and roll. It's not like p'n'r was invented in the late 80s, let's not be ridiculous. Why do you think Jack Sikma was a great pick and roll defender? Is that your gut feeling or is there any data that you could back your claim with?

I'm surprised there aren't more in-depth replies since this thread could potentially become very useful. I think the debate for the best pnr defender of all-time would be between Walton, Hakeem and KG. I think those three were hands down the best pnr defenders of their eras. High motor, mobile, athletic defenders with high bball IQ. I feel like Hakeem and KG have significantly more mobility, but they Walton could perhaps be more active than them.

Do you guys have a list of your top-15?

bastillon wrote:

Warspite wrote:The Bad Boys ran/invented much of todays pick n pop/roll offense and against them Jack Sikma and Hakeem seemed to be the best of the 80s. DRob was very effective as well with his mobility but he never had anyone else that could play defense.

I'm pretty sure that Oscar was the one who invented the pick and roll. It's not like p'n'r was invented in the late 80s, let's not be ridiculous. Why do you think Jack Sikma was a great pick and roll defender? Is that your gut feeling or is there any data that you could back your claim with?

I'm surprised there aren't more in-depth replies since this thread could potentially become very useful. I think the debate for the best pnr defender of all-time would be between Walton, Hakeem and KG. I think those three were hands down the best pnr defenders of their eras. High motor, mobile, athletic defenders with high bball IQ. I feel like Hakeem and KG have significantly more mobility, but they Walton could perhaps be more active than them.

Do you guys have a list of your top-15?

Oscar learned pick and roll from his coaches who played the game in the 30s. The point I was making is that most of the modern types of pick and roll/pop that you see started in the 80s from the Pistons who had no low post game.

Sikma was a great defender, very mobile and long and he seemed to give the Pistons fits. Its just my observation.

I feel that Duncan gets underrated in this aspect because he's pretty slow footed. But as long as he has the ability to drop back in coverage and is extremely effective against penetrating guards. His length is really bothersome to players trying to finish at the rim, and he does a remarkable job of hanging out in no-man's land, and his noncommittal usually forces guards into a tough decision, as he is close enough to recover to both the screener and handler. Basically, he's an expert at positioning.

I believe Zach Lowe pointed his out in his most recent article, but at 39 Duncan is still remarkably effective defending the play basically solely with his smart positioning.

Dr Spaceman wrote:I feel that Duncan gets underrated in this aspect because he's pretty slow footed. But as long as he has the ability to drop back in coverage and is extremely effective against penetrating guards. His length is really bothersome to players trying to finish at the rim, and he does a remarkable job of hanging out in no-man's land, and his noncommittal usually forces guards into a tough decision, as he is close enough to recover to both the screener and handler. Basically, he's an expert at positioning.

I believe Zach Lowe pointed his out in his most recent article, but at 39 Duncan is still remarkably effective defending the play basically solely with his smart positioning.

I strongly disagree. Being myself a Suns fan during the Steve Nash MVP era, I know Duncan is a liability in the pick and rolls with his limited lateral speed. Of course he famously got torched by Amare for almost 40 ppg in 2005 WCF but more importantly he was very poor against Steve Nash in switches. If Duncan was able to switch onto Nash, Spurs defense would be a lot more effective. I understand that this was the best pick and roll team of all-time, but still if he was an elite pick and roll defender, Spurs defense would've performed better.

Warspite,
What is the difference between the pick and rolls that Oscar played and the ones that Pistons played?

KG is probably the best I ever saw do it consistently. I'll toss out Bobby Jones as well for those who remember him.

I'd love to hear from some of the knowledgable folks 'round here about Dave Cowens' PnR-defending abilities. I don't know much about how he played D.

KG is the best on this particular topic, I ever saw. The dude has great hands, reading and positioning on this matter.

Sheed definitely deserve some love here as well. He was great at blitzing players all the way to the halfcourt line and preventing the pass to the roll guy as he recovers. Saw him did it a lot against Nash who was probably one of the best at running a P&R.

SaintofKillers wrote:Sheed definitely deserve some love here as well. He was great at blitzing players all the way to the halfcourt line and preventing the pass to the roll guy as he recovers. Saw him did it a lot against Nash who was probably one of the best at running a P&R.

Can you point to any games in particular?

BombsquadSammy wrote:I'd love to hear from some of the knowledgable folks 'round here about Dave Cowens' PnR-defending abilities. I don't know much about how he played D.

I've seen about 20 Dave Cowens games or so, mainly playoff games. But it was like 2-3 years ago so my memory isn't the best on this matter at this point in time. From what I remember, he had excellent foot speed and incredibly high motor. From all the 70s games I saw Cowens and Walton were dudes that were standing out in terms of their energy. It really means a lot for the defensive impact because it shows your possession to possession consistency (that's why Kobe never looked very good in +/- stats defensively, his consistency was terrible, sometimes he'd just take a vacation on like 10 straight possessions and did completely nothing defensively - Phil and Tex criticised him for that as well). So what I liked about Cowens is his high motor/energy. He really played hard every possession. Combine that with his surprisingly good lateral quickness and the fact that he always stepped out on the pick and rolls (unlike, say, Wilt who just stood there below the rim) and you're getting a really exceptional pick and roll defender. Cowens always kinda reminded me of KG btw, obviosuly nowhere near the same level of athleticism but incredibly intense player.

bastillon wrote:

SaintofKillers wrote:Sheed definitely deserve some love here as well. He was great at blitzing players all the way to the halfcourt line and preventing the pass to the roll guy as he recovers. Saw him did it a lot against Nash who was probably one of the best at running a P&R.

Can you point to any games in particular?

Just quickly off the top of my head: Game 2 Blazers-Mavs 2003 First Round.

Obviously KG would be number one for the previous decade, but I'm surprised that Ben Wallace wasn't mentioned here a little more. Dude was an absolute monster at that, not to mention a master of taking charges (off of switches at times). He could take over games defensively at times.

Chandler is a good pick, too.

I think using the 2005 WCF could be a bit misleading into why Duncan isn't a good pick-and-roll defender (or just overrated as a defender in general). I was under the impression that Duncan wasn't on Amare at times to prevent getting into foul trouble. I thought that Stoudemire had multiple defenders on him during that series, I can even remember Steven Hunter (when he was on the floor) being primarily being guarded by Duncan on the floor to prevent him getting into foul trouble. It's been a while since I've looked at this series, are there are some full games online on YouTube, so maybe I need to look at it again, since I may be quite wrong...

SaintofKillers wrote:

bastillon wrote:

SaintofKillers wrote:Sheed definitely deserve some love here as well. He was great at blitzing players all the way to the halfcourt line and preventing the pass to the roll guy as he recovers. Saw him did it a lot against Nash who was probably one of the best at running a P&R.

Can you point to any games in particular?

Just quickly off the top of my head: Game 2 Blazers-Mavs 2003 First Round.

How would you compare Sheed's pick and roll defense in his Blazer days and then as a member of the Pistons? I know for a fact that his incredible athleticism regressed a lot. Do you think that affected how he defended pick and rolls?

bastillon wrote:

Dr Spaceman wrote:I feel that Duncan gets underrated in this aspect because he's pretty slow footed. But as long as he has the ability to drop back in coverage and is extremely effective against penetrating guards. His length is really bothersome to players trying to finish at the rim, and he does a remarkable job of hanging out in no-man's land, and his noncommittal usually forces guards into a tough decision, as he is close enough to recover to both the screener and handler. Basically, he's an expert at positioning.

I believe Zach Lowe pointed his out in his most recent article, but at 39 Duncan is still remarkably effective defending the play basically solely with his smart positioning.

I strongly disagree. Being myself a Suns fan during the Steve Nash MVP era, I know Duncan is a liability in the pick and rolls with his limited lateral speed. Of course he famously got torched by Amare for almost 40 ppg in 2005 WCF but more importantly he was very poor against Steve Nash in switches. If Duncan was able to switch onto Nash, Spurs defense would be a lot more effective. I understand that this was the best pick and roll team of all-time, but still if he was an elite pick and roll defender, Spurs defense would've performed better.

Warspite,
What is the difference between the pick and rolls that Oscar played and the ones that Pistons played?

Ok... I don't know how history got rewritten with you. Saying that the defense should have performed better? Remind me who won the series handly? There was more than just one big playing in that series. Did you forget that Marion had an epic fail of a series? He came in avg 22 ppg and was reduced to being a 7ppg spare. The fact that the Suns were so dependent on one play was their downfall. They got away from shooting from outside, they got away from running out on the break.

SaintofKillers wrote:Sheed definitely deserve some love here as well. He was great at blitzing players all the way to the halfcourt line and preventing the pass to the roll guy as he recovers. Saw him did it a lot against Nash who was probably one of the best at running a P&R.

I think what is important is to realize how hard it is to correctly hedge on a pick and roll. It changes with who is playing with you(the ball handler defender), where the pick occurred, what side of the floor it happened(some players shoot better on a particular side), who is shooting. Sheed and Billups when they were at their apex, were among the best pair of defenders that I have ever seen handle the pick and roll.