SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:"I knew Hal when I got there [as the Sixers' business manager] Maybe the best middle distance jump shooter of all-time. You could argue that. That 15-, 16-, 17-foot range. It was like a layup to him.”
Hell no.
Greer shot lay ups at better than 45% so we know he is shooting mid range shots at worse than 45% If mid range shots were like a lay ups to him he would have a higher shooting percentage.
You don't know that to be true (at least to any significant margin). Lay-ups are almost always heavily contested, and some players (even excellent scorers) are not good finishers. And incidentally, these guys often tend to have a low proportion of their shots coming from <3 ft, too (because they're not good finishers). Thus, % from <3 ft range doesn't skew their overall fg% too far.
Examples:
1) Kirk Hinrich is only 52.9% from <3 ft for his career, with less than 1 of 6 attempts coming from there.
2) Allan Houston (have data for his final 5 seasons) was an awful finisher, and actually WORSE from <3 ft than he was from the rest of the field: just 40.1% from <3 ft; luckily only about 1 of 13 attempts came from that range.
3) Kyle Korver: he shoots a fairly nice 59.3% from <3 ft, but being primarily a jump-shooter (like Greer), he's almost never getting shots in that range (largely just the uncontested gimmes)-->barely 1 in 16 attempts coming from that range.
So it's not inconceivable to think that for someone like Greer (mostly noted for the mid/outside shooting) that the lay-ups factor perhaps isn't skewing his fg% upwards too much.
But even if it is somewhat, bear in mind that generally for perimeter players shooting %'s from the 3-10 ft and 10-16 ft ranges are the worst (lower than from 16-23 ft). It's because they're not point-blank at the rim but ARE heavily contested, and often runners or other high degree of difficulty shots. So even if his <3 ft % brings his total fg% up a little, it's likely that it is largely cancelled out by the poor % seen in the 3-16 ft range).
Just as further suggestive evidence, here are a whole bunch of guys with very little deviation between their % from 16-23 and their total FG% (sometimes they're marginally better from 16-23).....
Chauncey Billups: total FG%-->42.0%; 16-23 ft--->41.5%
Kirk Hinrich: total FG%-->41.2%; 16-23 ft--->40.9%
Allan Houston (final five seasons): total FG%--->44.1%; 16-23 ft--->46.0%
Tracy McGrady (all but first 3 seasons): total FG%-->43.4%; 16-23 ft--->41.5%
Kyle Korver: total FG%--->44.3%; 16-23 ft--->44.6%
Jamal Crawford: total FG%--->41.0%, 16-23 ft--->42.4%
Allen Iverson (all but first 4 seasons): total FG%--->42.4%; 16-23 ft--->39.7%
In short, I don't see any reason to believe that Greer's % from the ~15-23 ft range was really substantially less than his overall FG% (of 45.2%).
SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:In the films I saw his mid range shot was not well defended. There are probably more than 100 guys that played in the NBA who could shoot an open mid range better than Greer but most of those guys played after Greer. I wonder what Earl Boynkins could do if inserted into 1967.
Hmm.....
Here's a vid from the 1974 NBA finals, late in game 6:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9NUC_mflTI[/youtube]
Here are the mid-range shots I see going up.....
Heavily contested mid-range shot at 1:49.
Oscar, heavily contested pull-up at 6:35.
Lightly contested 22 footer at 8:22.
Cowens, lightly contested 18 footer at 9:48.
Kareem, heavily contested 15-foot fall-away at 10:10.
Hondo, lightly (or light-to-moderately) contested 17 footer at 11:08.
Hondo, lightly contested (though is a quick transition shot, and in extreme pressure circumstance, fwiw) 15 footer at 12:02.
Heavily contested Dandridge jumper (about 13 feet) at 12:35.
Cowens open corner J (~20 feet) at 13:22.
***EXCELLENT EXAMPLE of what the officiating on dribbling was like at the 13:30 mark, btw: never in a million years would that be called a carry today (and this is as late as 1974; they were even more restrictive in the 50's and 60's). But it provides a great example of the dribbling restrictions players had to operate under at the time, which casual fans today completely ignore when watching these old clips.****Chaney minimally contested 20 footer at 13:53.
****Another decent example, imo, of some of what WAS allowed defensively (I know some people don't buy the accounts that the game was kinda rough/physical at times). But look at how Havlicek is hanging all over Dandridge at 14:40, bumps him with the body on the shot, too......one or both would likely get called today.****(not a mid-range, but check out the tough contested hit by Havlicek at 16:30)
Moderately contested 14-footer by Robertson at 16:45.
Jo Jo White, heavily contested 13-footer at 17:23.
Havlicek, minimally contested 17-footer at 17:58.
Heavily contested 12-13 footer at 21:02.
Havlicek heavily contested 11-footer at 21:19.
Kareem, pretty well-contested (as much as was possible with that shot) sky-hook from 13 feet at 22:42.
So I was a bit liberal with what I'll call mid-range (all the way down to 11-12 feet), given there's no 3pt line. Throughout this section of the game, I counted 16 mid-range shots going up, only 6-7 of them uncontested or lightly contested, by my estimation. The remainder were at least reasonably contested to my eye.
Here's a Hondo mix (highlights):
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsYAICmVMHA[/youtube]
Several of these look pretty contested (especially the very first shot---though is closer range---the one at ~0:55, the one at 2:03, etc). Many other tough contested runners in the paint here, too. Many of the others that aren't heavily contested are off the dribble either in transition of off a high screen, which isn't much different from today.
And by way of supportive evidence, to show that there are plenty of open mid-range shots today, here's a random modern video---Westbrook/Curry (fwiw, all I did was a quick YouTube search for a Russell Westbrook big game, clicked on the first suitable one I saw, knowing there would be many examples in it):
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-Dtq2CEAnw[/youtube]
Uncontested mid-range right off the bat at 0:07.
Minimally contested 16 footer by Green at 0:58.
Westbrook, minimally contested coming off a high screen at 1:35.
Morrow (I think) curling off a screen minimally contested 18 footer at 2:28.
Perry Jones curling off a screen, minimally contested 18 footer at 5:21.
Westbrook,
completely uncontested 23-24 footer (can't tell if a three) off a screen at 5:38.
Speights wide open 17-footer at 5:46.
Perkins
completely uncontested 15-16 footer at 5:55.
Livingston, uncontested 8 footer off the dribble (could have had an uncontested 17 footer, if he'd wanted it) at 6:12.
Westbrook, quick dribble to get man off balance, but still.....uncontested 22 foot pull-up at 6:35.
(Moderately contested 18-foot pull-up at 6:55.)
Curry, off the dribble, minimally contested 17 footer at 7:20.
So here is a video of just ONE modern day game, and not even the whole game, but rather only the offensive plays that Curry or Westbrook were involved with; and
only the plays where someone scored at that (not even including missed attempts)......and
still I counted 11-12 uncontested or only lightly contested mid-range shots in this video.
I'm not suggesting that defense is poorer today than it was for Havlicek or Greer or West. I'm just pointing out that players are still getting PLENTY of "open" looks from the mid-range, really no different from Hondo/Greer/West's time. Pay attention to any modern game....you're going to see it at a similar frequency as I'm suggesting with the above video. If you're not seeing that, I'd suggest you're only seeing what you want to see from the respective eras.
. He'd probably be my 3rd or 4th most favored option for this spot.