Peak Jordan vs Peak Lebron

[Quotatious]

Here we go again...

I think they're extremely close, peak-wise. I consider 2009 to be LeBron's peak, and he was literally unstoppable that year. Not as complete as he was in 2012-14 (didn't have the post game yet, and much worse off-ball player), but I'm not sure if it really matters, because despite certain limitations in terms of skillset, nobody could stop him.

Literally a toss-up. Can't go wrong with either. Most people will say Jordan basically by default ("because he's Jordan"), but I really don't see why. Just about anything I can think of implies they were equal (even if you want to argue "intangibles" as the reason why MJ was better, LeBron's numbers were slightly better, particularly in the playoffs, if we choose '09 as his peak).

The way I see it is - 2009 LeBron is equal (perhaps even slightly better) than peak ('91, probably) Jordan, but '91 Jordan is better than any other version of LeBron (because of superior playoff performance - ironically, LeBron's best playoff run didn't result in a championship - actually he didn't even make the finals that year).

An interesting way to look at it would be comparing 1988 MJ vs 2009 LBJ, and then 1991 MJ to 2012 or 2013 LBJ (similar team results, similar stages of their careers).

[JeepCSC]

My problem with peak Lebron is he looked more dominant in 2009 but looked like a better player in 2012. At least have the decency to make it one year ala Shaq (I came to Jordan in the middle of the first threepeat, so I won't speak about 1991).

[Quotatious]

My problem with peak Lebron is he looked more dominant in 2009 but looked like a better player in 2012. At least have the decency to make it one year ala Shaq.

The thing is, LeBron has at least three seasons that have a very strong case (2009, 2012, 2013, I guess one can even argue 2010 or 2014 - personally, I wouldn't - I would go with '09, '12 or '13, but it's not unthinkable to make a case for '10 or '14), while Shaq's 2000 season was clearly his best.

[JeepCSC]

Yes, I was being facetious to some degree. I tend to use 2009 as his peak. But it is weird for me to do that and then also believe he could have been a better player in Miami. Makes for a muddled narrative where I'm unsure if peak Lebron is even better than himself let alone someone else.

[_Game7_]

I would take Lebron. Bigger, stronger, faster, Jordan 2.0.

[LakerLegend]

Here we go again...

I think they're extremely close, peak-wise. I consider 2009 to be LeBron's peak, and he was literally unstoppable that year. Not as complete as he was in 2012-14 (didn't have the post game yet, and much worse off-ball player), but I'm not sure if it really matters, because despite certain limitations in terms of skillset, nobody could stop him.

Literally a toss-up. Can't go wrong with either. Most people will say Jordan basically by default ("because he's Jordan"), but I really don't see why. Just about anything I can think of implies they were equal (even if you want to argue "intangibles" as the reason why MJ was better, LeBron's numbers were slightly better, particularly in the playoffs, if we choose '09 as his peak).

The way I see it is - 2009 LeBron is equal (perhaps even slightly better) than peak ('91, probably) Jordan, but '91 Jordan is better than any other version of LeBron (because of superior playoff performance - ironically, LeBron's best playoff run didn't result in a championship - actually he didn't even make the finals that year).

An interesting way to look at it would be comparing 1988 MJ vs 2009 LBJ, and then 1991 MJ to 2012 or 2013 LBJ (similar team results, similar stages of their careers).

You really think Peak Jordan wouldn't significantly outperform what LeBron has shown in the playoffs? I've got this thread here:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1373799#start_here

and it seems to me that you can at least make the argument that well past prime Jordan was a better playoff performer.

[Quotatious]

You really think Peak Jordan wouldn't significantly outperform what LeBron has shown in the playoffs? I've got this thread here:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1373799#start_here

and it seems to me that you can at least make the argument that well past prime Jordan was a better playoff performer.

LeBron is a great playoff performer. His career playoff numbers are basically the same as his career regular season numbers (looking at the big picture, i.e. entire careers, most players decline in the playoffs, LeBron doesn't). Sure, he had his fair share of relatively mediocre playoff showings, but let's not act like Jordan didn't...Literally every player had some poor playoff games/series, MJ included.

As you see, I consider 2009 as LeBron's peak, so to me, there's no way he was disappointing in the playoffs at his peak, considering that LBJ's 2009 playoffs are quite possibly the best in NBA history, by any player, despite the fact that it didn't result in a championship, or actually not even a finals appearance (similar story with 1977 Kareem). His numbers during that postseason run are just mind-boggling, and I don't believe it was a fluke, because 14 games is a pretty decent sample size. Especially against Orlando (best defense in the NBA in '09, anchored by DPOY Dwight Howard), he was something else.

Jordan in his peak-ish form ('88-'91) never played more than 17 games, and his numbers were never as good as LeBron's in '09 (their raw numbers were about the same, but LeBron is clearly better in terms of advanced stats). Do you think that 3 more games played (17 for '91 MJ, 14 for '09 LBJ) would've made a big difference? Even if LeBron would've played very poorly in those hypothetical 3 extra games (but there's no reason to assume that would be the case), his overall numbers would've still been at least as good as Jordan's.

So no, I don't think LeBron is any worse than MJ in the playoffs, comparing their peaks (which is a single season). I agree that Jordan would be better if we compared, let's say, their top 5 consecutive playoff runs (the gap still wouldn't be very big), but one year? LeBron is at worst equal (quite frankly, better).

[lukekarts]

Jordan was clearly better. He was a better scorer, the offense flowed better with him (whereas peak LeBron was guilty of stagnating the game and rushing passes to perimeter shooters). Jordan was more assertive on the game, better at leading by example and therefore having a great impact on how hard players like Pippen, Grant, Rodman etc worked for him. I also think he had more ability to deliver those 'carry a team through adversity' moments better than LeBron.

LeBron, for all his qualities, still needs a system to entirely revolve around his way of playing, which limits the ability of his team-mates to fulfill their potential and somewhat limits the overall peak of a team. So whilst his peak statistics are comparable, his peak results fall a little short of the dominance we saw from Jordan.

[GYK]

89 Mike. Scored 18.1 more points per game than his next teammate.
8 assist per game with 34.7 assist percentage.
nearly 3 steal per game.
Shooting .614TS% to his teams .553TS%(+.061)

[Shot Clock]

You really think Peak Jordan wouldn't significantly outperform what LeBron has shown in the playoffs? I've got this thread here:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1373799#start_here

and it seems to me that you can at least make the argument that well past prime Jordan was a better playoff performer.

LeBron is a great playoff performer. His career playoff numbers are basically the same as his career regular season numbers (looking at the big picture, i.e. entire careers, most players decline in the playoffs, LeBron doesn't). Sure, he had his fair share of relatively mediocre playoff showings, but let's not act like Jordan didn't...Literally every player had some poor playoff games/series, MJ included.

As you see, I consider 2009 as LeBron's peak, so to me, there's no way he was disappointing in the playoffs at his peak, considering that LBJ's 2009 playoffs are quite possibly the best in NBA history, by any player, despite the fact that it didn't result in a championship, or actually not even a finals appearance (similar story with 1977 Kareem). His numbers during that postseason run are just mind-boggling, and I don't believe it was a fluke, because 14 games is a pretty decent sample size. Especially against Orlando (best defense in the NBA in '09, anchored by DPOY Dwight Howard), he was something else.

Jordan in his peak-ish form ('88-'91) never played more than 17 games, and his numbers were never as good as LeBron's in '09 (their raw numbers were about the same, but LeBron is clearly better in terms of advanced stats). Do you think that 3 more games played (17 for '91 MJ, 14 for '09 LBJ) would've made a big difference? Even if LeBron would've played very poorly in those hypothetical 3 extra games (but there's no reason to assume that would be the case), his overall numbers would've still been at least as good as Jordan's.

So no, I don't think LeBron is any worse than MJ in the playoffs, comparing their peaks (which is a single season). I agree that Jordan would be better if we compared, let's say, their top 5 consecutive playoff runs (the gap still wouldn't be very big), but one year? LeBron is at worst equal (quite frankly, better).

Care to elaborate on what "advanced stats" were clearly better?

Take 1992, which you excluded for some reason.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&y1=2009&p1=jamesle01&y2=1992&p2=jordami01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

Regular Season
Lebron 27.5p/7r/6.7a/1.8s/0.9b .555 TS%
Jordan 32.3p/6.3r/6a/2.7s/1.1b .592 TS%

Playoffs
Lebron 29.4p/8.3r/7.3a/1.6s/0.8b .553 TS% 43.8 MPG
Jordan 34.6p/6.7r/6.8a/2.4s/1.0b .587 TS% 42 MPG

I don't see a lot of difference. Jordan is clearly the better scorer. Lebron has more assists and rebounds. When you consider position, rule changes, style changes and competition it makes things pretty muddy. Jordan had a 7 game slugfest vs the Knicks. Played in a league without the benefit of the no-charge area, hand checking or the defensive 3 second violation. All if these would without a doubt made him even better.

The biggest difference for me between these two is determination. You always knew Jordan was going to figure out a way to win. With Lebron you never truly felt that way. The Cavs should not have lost vs the Magic. While Lebron put up insane numbers they lost some very winnable games.

[Joao Saraiva]

Jordan 1991
RS 31.5 PPG 6 RPG 5.5 APG 2.7 SPG 1 BPG 31.1 PER 60.5ts% 32.1 WS/48
PS 31.1 PPG 6.4 RPG 8.4 APG 2.4 SPG 1.4 BPG 32 PER 60ts% 33.3 WS/48

LeBron 2009
RS 28.4 PPG 7.6 RPG 7.2 APG 1.7 SPG 1.1 BPG 31.7 PER 59.1ts% 31.8 WS/48
PS 35.3 PPG 9.1 RPG 7.3 APG 1.4 SPG 0.7 BPG 37.4 PER 61.8ts% 39.9 WS/48

Looks close enough to me. If LeBron had won the 09 championship, people would probably be discussing if MJ's peak was as good as LeBron's.

LeBron 2012
RS 27.1 PPG 7.9 RPG 6.2 APG 1.9 SPG 0.8 BPG 30.7 PER 60.5ts% 29.8 WS/48
PS 30.3 PPG 9.7 RPG 5.6 APG 1.9 SPG 0.7 BPG 30.3 PER 57.6ts% 28.4 WS/48

In 2012 LeBron doesn't go above MJ's stats, but he's pretty close to MJ's peak.

LeBron lead his team in PPG, RPG, APG, SPG in the post season to win the NBA tittle. Michael Jordan never did such thing.
And that's not only it: LeBron closed the middle for the Heat in those playoffs. Can Michael Jordan do that? No, he can't. Michael was not even the better defender in the 1991 squad, and we saw Pippen taking on the challange of defending Magic in the finals and doing it better than Michael Jordan.

How many teams have won with a SF closing the middle like the Heat did? I tell you what, that MJ always found a way to win is bull. Put MJ on those Heat squads instead of LeBron and I'm not even sure they reach the NBA finals.

So yes, LeBron has at least two years worth of comparison to MJ's best year. Of course it's close.

I am defending LeBron here but I would say Michael Jordan has his case, of course, as a peak player: I think he was a better scorer than LeBron, better midrange shooter, better post player, better footwork,and even a better man to man defender. That doesn't mean LeBron is far away, and he certainly has the edge in several areas of the game too.

A case can be made for either player. I think they're #1 and #2 peaks of all time (I see Hakeem or Shaq with a shot at those places too).

[JulesWinnfield]

You really think Peak Jordan wouldn't significantly outperform what LeBron has shown in the playoffs? I've got this thread here:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1373799#start_here

and it seems to me that you can at least make the argument that well past prime Jordan was a better playoff performer.

LeBron is a great playoff performer. His career playoff numbers are basically the same as his career regular season numbers (looking at the big picture, i.e. entire careers, most players decline in the playoffs, LeBron doesn't). Sure, he had his fair share of relatively mediocre playoff showings, but let's not act like Jordan didn't...Literally every player had some poor playoff games/series, MJ included.

As you see, I consider 2009 as LeBron's peak, so to me, there's no way he was disappointing in the playoffs at his peak, considering that LBJ's 2009 playoffs are quite possibly the best in NBA history, by any player, despite the fact that it didn't result in a championship, or actually not even a finals appearance (similar story with 1977 Kareem). His numbers during that postseason run are just mind-boggling, and I don't believe it was a fluke, because 14 games is a pretty decent sample size. Especially against Orlando (best defense in the NBA in '09, anchored by DPOY Dwight Howard), he was something else.

Jordan in his peak-ish form ('88-'91) never played more than 17 games, and his numbers were never as good as LeBron's in '09 (their raw numbers were about the same, but LeBron is clearly better in terms of advanced stats). Do you think that 3 more games played (17 for '91 MJ, 14 for '09 LBJ) would've made a big difference? Even if LeBron would've played very poorly in those hypothetical 3 extra games (but there's no reason to assume that would be the case), his overall numbers would've still been at least as good as Jordan's.

So no, I don't think LeBron is any worse than MJ in the playoffs, comparing their peaks (which is a single season). I agree that Jordan would be better if we compared, let's say, their top 5 consecutive playoff runs (the gap still wouldn't be very big), but one year? LeBron is at worst equal (quite frankly, better).

Care to elaborate on what "advanced stats" were clearly better?

Take 1992, which you excluded for some reason.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&y1=2009&p1=jamesle01&y2=1992&p2=jordami01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

Regular Season
Lebron 27.5p/7r/6.7a/1.8s/0.9b .555 TS%
Jordan 32.3p/6.3r/6a/2.7s/1.1b .592 TS%

Playoffs
Lebron 29.4p/8.3r/7.3a/1.6s/0.8b .553 TS% 43.8 MPG
Jordan 34.6p/6.7r/6.8a/2.4s/1.0b .587 TS% 42 MPG

I don't see a lot of difference. Jordan is clearly the better scorer. Lebron has more assists and rebounds. When you consider position, rule changes, style changes and competition it makes things pretty muddy. Jordan had a 7 game slugfest vs the Knicks. Played in a league without the benefit of the no-charge area, hand checking or the defensive 3 second violation. All if these would without a doubt made him even better.

The biggest difference for me between these two is determination. You always knew Jordan was going to figure out a way to win. With Lebron you never truly felt that way. The Cavs should not have lost vs the Magic. While Lebron put up insane numbers they lost some very winnable games.

A few things about the bolded section which displays an obvious pro jordan slant....

1. Check the d ratings of teams these guys faced in their playoff career. Lebron is the one who faced tougher defenses and it's not close. Hell jordan played a couple *finals* series against teams who would be the worst defensive team Lebron ever faced in any round of the playoffs

2. Defensive 3 seconds has always been illegal, it just went by a different name. People always bring this up to discuss era changes without really understanding that the behavior was always outlawed. Defenders were never allowed to just zone up in the paint area unconnected to a man, that was illegal defense, and not just in the paint but anywhere on the floor for that matter. The 3 second rule is just a watered down version of the old illegal defense call. Which brings me to the next point

3. While we are discussing rule changes, one of these guys deals with overloads and zone defenses that were illegal in the other ones era

4. Jordan played in inarguably the worst era post merger, during a time of massive expansion before the global talent boom. The league was watered down beyond belief. The talent pool is so much deeper today it's not even funny

5. Advanced scouting enabling teams to defend from a position of immense knowledge, absolutely dwarfs Jordan's era which was prehistoric by comparison on that front

I think their peaks are roughly equal, and MJ is the GOAT, but I'm not buying any argument whatsoever that Jordan's era was inherently tougher to navigate or worthy of extra credit, because it's the total opposite of the truth

[MrKnox]

Jordan. Second three peat Jordan was 33/34/35 years of age, three to five years older than Lebron is now. LOL. Second three peat MJ put up 72/69/62 wins and had iconic games like the buzzer beater in game one of the '97 Finals, the epic 38 point "flu game" in game five of the '97 Finals and the jump shot/pose to beat Utah in game six of the '98 Finals. '91-'93 MJ crushes Lebron. Game 2 of the '91 Finals. 15-18 FG including a record 13 in a row. The 35 point first half against Clyde in '92. 46 points on the road to beat the Blazers in a pivitol game five in '92 (a game nobody remembers) and any number of games from the '93 Finals when he averaged 41.0 PPG. If your life was on the line and you needed to win one game or one series would anyone seriously consider taking peak Lebron over peak MJ?

[Keller61]

I don't see why it's necessary to define "peak" as one season. It seems pretty arbitrary to me. You could just as easily define it as best two seasons, or best half-season.

I think LeBron was basically at his best throughout 09-14. There's no need to pick a year. Just because he played really well during one particular run ('09) doesn't prove that "peak LeBron" is as reliable a playoff performer as Jordan. His larger body of work during the period in which he can be considered at his best tells us that he isn't. So I'm taking MJ.

[Frosty]

A few things about the bolded section which displays an obvious pro jordan slant....

1. Check the d ratings of teams these guys faced in their playoff career. Lebron is the one who faced tougher defenses and it's not close. Hell jordan played a couple *finals* series against teams who would be the worst defensive team Lebron ever faced in any round of the playoffs

Considering the year he picked the average level of defense both faced according to DRTG is pretty similar. The "it's not close" comments always prove hilarious to me.

Lebron - 105.8
Jordan - 106.9

Hardly significant.

2. Defensive 3 seconds has always been illegal, it just went by a different name. People always bring this up to discuss era changes without really understanding that the behavior was always outlawed. Defenders were never allowed to just zone up in the paint area unconnected to a man, that was illegal defense, and not just in the paint but anywhere on the floor for that matter. The 3 second rule is just a watered down version of the old illegal defense call.

The 3 second rule on defense was a new rule, previously as long as there was a guy you were potentially guarding close to the lane you were golden. Even on the NBA site it states it is new. Previously you did not have to be within arms length and actively guarding.

A new defensive three-second rule will prohibit a defensive player from remaining in the lane for more than three consecutive seconds without closely guarding an offensive player.

It really doesn't matter because collectively the rules that were introduced we specifically making life easier for Jordan like players.

3. While we are discussing rule changes, one of these guys deals with overloads and zone defenses that were illegal in the other ones era

Zones aren't allowed. If you want to be specific. Also, few teams actually run them often. You cannot argue it is harder for a perimeter player today. It just isn't, the league purposely made it easier. I wish people would stop trying to make it look otherwise.

4. Jordan played in inarguably the worst era post merger, during a time of massive expansion before the global talent boom. The league was watered down beyond belief. The talent pool is so much deeper today it's not even funny

Ugh...you seem to be harboring some deep issues. The talent pool today? Lebron faced Orlando, Atlanta and Detroit that year. Jordan faced Detroit, Miami, NY and Portland. I don't see a deeper lineup for Lebron....

5. Advanced scouting enabling teams to defend from a position of immense knowledge, absolutely dwarfs Jordan's era which was prehistoric by comparison on that front

Doesn't matter if you can't keep him in front of you.

I think their peaks are roughly equal, and MJ is the GOAT, but I'm not buying any argument whatsoever that Jordan's era was inherently tougher to navigate or worthy of extra credit, because it's the total opposite of the truth

So what is it you don't believe?

The league set out to make it easier for perimeter players ;like Lebron and Jordan?
Or that they were successful?

Because satements from the league and stats back up both.

[Frosty]

Jordan 1991
RS 31.5 PPG 6 RPG 5.5 APG 2.7 SPG 1 BPG 31.1 PER 60.5ts% 32.1 WS/48
PS 31.1 PPG 6.4 RPG 8.4 APG 2.4 SPG 1.4 BPG 32 PER 60ts% 33.3 WS/48

LeBron 2009
RS 28.4 PPG 7.6 RPG 7.2 APG 1.7 SPG 1.1 BPG 31.7 PER 59.1ts% 31.8 WS/48
PS 35.3 PPG 9.1 RPG 7.3 APG 1.4 SPG 0.7 BPG 37.4 PER 61.8ts% 39.9 WS/48

Looks close enough to me. If LeBron had won the 09 championship, people would probably be discussing if MJ's peak was as good as LeBron's.

Aren't we doing that?

Can Michael Jordan do that? No[/b], he can't. Michael was not even the better defender in the 1991 squad, and we saw Pippen taking on the challange of defending Magic in the finals and doing it better than Michael Jordan.

Actually Pippen only guarded him for 2 halfs. Jordan was doing fine otherwise for a guy completely outsized. Even Lebron is going to have issues on MAgic. I'm not sure that's a knock against Jordan. Magic is an ATG offensive player with size. This would be like Lebron trying to cover Shaq.

Put MJ on those Heat squads instead of LeBron and I'm not even sure they reach the NBA finals.

Considering they already have Wade, yes another SG would be a bad fit.

[JulesWinnfield]

It's going to be a mess if I try and quote that post piece by piece to reply. So to keep it cleaner and shorter in size I will just address the points by the number they were initially labeled in my first post

1. I was talking about their careers with that point, you replied by refuting a point I didn't make about an individual season. And in the process proved my initial point about defensive competition correct. Even if it wasn't as glaring that season as it was in some others

2. I don't believe you have a firm grasp of the old illegal defense rule at all. The behavior disallowed by the 3 second rule (ie a defender just playing zone in the paint) was outlawed under the illegal defense rule too. The illegal defense rules allowed the offense to completely dictate the defense based on how they spaced the floor. Tossing these rules aside above all was done to discourage the ISO ball clear outs that were so predominant in the league at the time, and to encourage ball movement. It is harder now for the individual scorer to find as much space to operate, and you really can't get these true clear outs you used to for the gifted scorer

3. Teams don't play much conventional zone in the NBA, no one is out there like past Syracuse teams, but there are many hybrid zones/strong side overloads that were illegal when jordan played that lebron sees frequently. Some teams overload basically any time he has the ball on the wing

4. I will absolutely stand by the point that the overall talent pool today (which is what I said, but not what you responded to) post global boom and with over a decade of non expansion, is absolutely superior to Jordan's expansion crazy era at a time when the league was nearly exclusively American. The average nba player today is better in my view than the average player at any point in the 90s. The competition just to make a roster in this post global landscape is absurd

5. There's no other way to take that counter argument as anything other than a begrudging admission that the point about advanced scouting through video and statistical data is inarguable

[GYK]

32 points per game with a 18 point gap. That's a guaranteed double team every possession. That's a big game nightly with little else to focus on except Mike.

[colts18]

LeBron faces a lot of defenses that MJ never faces. No Illegal defense is a game changer. It allows teams to overload LeBron's drives. Could you imagine LeBron in an era where the defense can't cheat to his side?

[PCProductions]

Has there been a good analysis of how much individual scorers are affected by illegal defense vs handchecking? Is that something that has been comprehensively researched yet?