RealGM

Who would you take?

Id take 05-07 versions of Nash over 15 Harden. Its fairly close but not something i really need to second guess. Both are offense-only players and Nash wins at offense.

Nash

I am not sure how people are really missing how special this 2015 season was by Harden.

Very short list of performances you would take over that one, and Nash doesn't own any of them.

LarsV8 wrote:I am not sure how people are really missing how special this 2015 season was by Harden.

Very short list of performances you would take over that one, and Nash doesn't own any of them.

Actually there's a lot of peaks I'd take over Harden, and I mean a LOT.

Part of me wants to choose Nash, but I still feel uneasy about the lack of success by volume distributing smalls versus volume scoring smalls in the playoffs. I know the suns lost because of defense, but I feel like part of their roster buildup was made to sacrifice defense for offense and in more sets harden would have more success/portability than nash.

Greatness wrote:

LarsV8 wrote:I am not sure how people are really missing how special this 2015 season was by Harden.

Very short list of performances you would take over that one, and Nash doesn't own any of them.

Actually there's a lot of peaks I'd take over Harden, and I mean a LOT.

Is 2006 Nash one of them?

Close but Nash

LarsV8 wrote:

Greatness wrote:

LarsV8 wrote:I am not sure how people are really missing how special this 2015 season was by Harden.

Very short list of performances you would take over that one, and Nash doesn't own any of them.

Actually there's a lot of peaks I'd take over Harden, and I mean a LOT.

Is 2006 Nash one of them?

Yes. One of the GOAT offensive seasons and defence is negligible for both.

I go Nash

Greatness wrote:Yes. One of the GOAT offensive seasons and defence is negligible for both.

Not really true at all.

The 05-06 Suns weren't even the No.1 offense that season and it was the worst offensive output of the 7 or so years of SSOL under Dantoni and Gentry.

and Harden demolishes him statistically. Trying to marganalize Harden's defense last season when it was vastly superior to Nash is intellectually dishonest.

LarsV8 wrote:

Greatness wrote:Yes. One of the GOAT offensive seasons and defence is negligible for both.

Not really true at all.

The 05-06 Suns weren't even the No.1 offense that season and it was the worst offensive output of the 7 or so years of SSOL under Dantoni and Gentry.

and Harden demolishes him statistically. Trying to marganalize Harden's defense last season when it was vastly superior to Nash is intellectually dishonest.

[img]http://i58.tinypic.com/ekl0d1.png[/img]

Maybe you're right, I think I was thinking about 2007 Nash.

LarsV8 wrote:

Greatness wrote:Yes. One of the GOAT offensive seasons and defence is negligible for both.

Not really true at all.

The 05-06 Suns weren't even the No.1 offense that season

I think he was suggesting it was a GOAT-level individual offensive season for Nash (not that I necessarily agree). Bear in mind Stoudemire went down that year (played just 3 games); so they were without their highest volume (and nearly most efficient) scorer.....and still came out as the #2 offense (+5.3 to league in ORtg).

With Stoudemire out, review the supporting cast Nash had at his disposal......is it significantly better than the cast Marbury had in '03, the year the the offense was +0.1 to league avg ORtg (though ranked only 20th of 29 teams).
Or is it better than the supporting cast Marbury/Barbosa had (primarily under same coach D'Antoni) in '04, when they were -1.5 to league avg (ranked 21st of 29)?
I would argue not really.

Again, I don't necessarily agree that '06 Nash was a GOAT-level offensive season, but I think that's part of where he's coming from.

LarsV8 wrote:and it was the worst offensive output of the 7 or so years of SSOL under Dantoni and Gentry.

Picking a nit, but I can't see a measure by which this statement is strictly accurate. In ppg (a crude measure) it's the 6th-best; in raw ORtg it's 6th-best, in relative ORtg it's tied for 5th-best. So not one of the BEST offensive seasons of the SSOL era, but again: it's basically the only year in which they were without their top scorer for the entire year, too.

trex_8063 wrote:

LarsV8 wrote:

Greatness wrote:Yes. One of the GOAT offensive seasons and defence is negligible for both.

Not really true at all.

The 05-06 Suns weren't even the No.1 offense that season

I think he was suggesting it was a GOAT-level individual offensive season for Nash (not that I necessarily agree). Bear in mind Stoudemire went down that year (played just 3 games); so they were without their highest volume (and nearly most efficient) scorer.....and still came out as the #2 offense (+5.3 to league in ORtg).

With Stoudemire out, review the supporting cast Nash had at his disposal......is it significantly better than the cast Marbury had in '03, the year the the offense was +0.1 to league avg ORtg (though ranked only 20th of 29 teams).
Or is it better than the supporting cast Marbury/Barbosa had (primarily under same coach D'Antoni) in '04, when they were -1.5 to league avg (ranked 21st of 29)?
I would argue not really.

Again, I don't necessarily agree that '06 Nash was a GOAT-level offensive season, but I think that's part of where he's coming from.

LarsV8 wrote:and it was the worst offensive output of the 7 or so years of SSOL under Dantoni and Gentry.

Picking a nit, but I can't see a measure by which this statement is strictly accurate. In ppg (a crude measure) it's the 6th-best; in raw ORtg it's 6th-best, in relative ORtg it's tied for 5th-best. So not one of the BEST offensive seasons of the SSOL era, but again: it's basically the only year in which they were without their top scorer for the entire year, too.

And they lost Joe Johnson to free agency. They also traded Luol Deng for a future pick (Nate Robinson) in 2004.

LarsV8 wrote:

Greatness wrote:
The 05-06 Suns weren't even the No.1 offense that season and it was the worst offensive output of the 7 or so years of SSOL under Dantoni and Gentry.

Well yeah, they didn't have Amare Stoudemire - that's part of the reason why Nash won an MVP that year.


As for James Harden's defense, sorry that isn't pushing the needle. They're primarily offensive players, no one is going to take one guy just because they are less bad at defense than the other.

LarsV8 wrote:

Greatness wrote:Yes. One of the GOAT offensive seasons and defence is negligible for both.

Not really true at all.

The 05-06 Suns weren't even the No.1 offense that season and it was the worst offensive output of the 7 or so years of SSOL under Dantoni and Gentry.

and Harden demolishes him statistically. Trying to marganalize Harden's defense last season when it was vastly superior to Nash is intellectually dishonest.

What? Where does he demolish Nash? Nash easily counters the few ppg more assists. Better FT and 3 point shooter as well. FG% advantage for Harden only because he drives more while Nash takes more midrange jumpers.
So Harden has higher ppg
Nash higher efficiency and more assits
Defense is a wash.

So try to tell me again, where exactly does Harden "dominate" Nash? Also bear in mind that Nash was never supposed to be the main scorer and yet still puts up respectable ppg.
Nevermind the usage rate.

Sykar wrote:

LarsV8 wrote:

Greatness wrote:Yes. One of the GOAT offensive seasons and defence is negligible for both.

Not really true at all.

The 05-06 Suns weren't even the No.1 offense that season and it was the worst offensive output of the 7 or so years of SSOL under Dantoni and Gentry.

and Harden demolishes him statistically. Trying to marganalize Harden's defense last season when it was vastly superior to Nash is intellectually dishonest.

What? Where does he demolish Nash? Nash easily counters the few ppg more assists. Better FT and 3 point shooter as well. FG% advantage for Harden only because he drives more while Nash takes more midrange jumpers.
So Harden has higher ppg
Nash higher efficiency and more assits
Defense is a wash.

So try to tell me again, where exactly does Harden "dominate" Nash? Also bear in mind that Nash was never supposed to be the main scorer and yet still puts up respectable ppg.
Nevermind the usage rate.

Let's see. James Harden averages about 9 points more than Nash on slightly less efficiency. Nash had a TS of 63 while Harden was 60. Nash only averaged 3.5 more assists and that's with better offensive weapons. You also say that Nash wasn't supposed to be the primary scorer, but fail to acknowledge that Harden wasn't supposed to be the point guard of the time, but had to be since Beverly went down

When it comes to production-related numbers, Harden clearly wins, but production-based stats, even advanced ones, simply do not give a good measure of Nash's impact in Phoenix. +/- related stats from back then always have Nash around the top, which I think is a better representation of his impact. Without Nash, Phoenix would always turn into complete trash in a way I haven't seen shown in any stats other than that and pure wins/losses.

There really aren't any stats (yet, anyways) that truly encapsulate the value of a point guard who is elevating everybody else's play. Maybe something that ties teammates' production gains into their own or something. "Made Shawn Marion look way better than he was" is something hard to quantify with production based stats.

tong po wrote:When it comes to production-related numbers, Harden clearly wins, but production-based stats, even advanced ones, simply do not give a good measure of Nash's impact in Phoenix. +/- related stats from back then always have Nash around the top, which I think is a better representation of his impact. Without Nash, Phoenix would always turn into complete trash in a way I haven't seen shown in any stats other than that and pure wins/losses.

Harden's offensive impact last year actually seems to be higher than Nash's in 2006 based on on/off court differential.

Make no mistake about it, Houston would've been a mediocre team without Harden last season, just like the Suns would've been mediocre without Nash in 2006. Harden's best teammate missed exactly 50% of the 2014-15 regular season, Nash's best teammate (I mean Marion) missed only one game, so Nash's supporting cast was still probably better than Harden's, even with Amare out for a season, yet Harden still led his team to two more wins.

I'd probably take Harden here.

Oh, and Marion was great when he played with Marbury in 2003, too (and Marbury was hardly a pass first, genius level IQ orchestrator like Nash).

Quotatious wrote:Harden's offensive impact last year actually seems to be higher than Nash's in 2006 based on on/off court differential.

That may be, but then Nash's 2006 defensive +/- numbers make him look like Scottie Pippen compared to Harden, which is why his +/- was still ultimately better. Of course it's also partly why +/- is not a great stat. But then we don't really have RPM or adjusted +/- numbers from back then. If we assume Nash had similar advanced +/- numbers in 2006 as he did in years we do have data for, then it's safe to say he was among the league's best.

Quotatious wrote:Oh, and Marion was great when he played with Marbury in 2003, too (and Marbury was hardly a pass first, genius level IQ orchestrator like Nash).

That's my point. Marion was the same player with Marbury. He really gained no new skills between 2004 and 2005. Yet his scoring efficiency skyrocketed with Nash, his playoff numbers in particular.