RealGM

What are your thoughts on these rankings? (These are from an article I will post at the end of the post, so you can read the rationale if you like...this isn't an article by me, but from one someone posted on the Suns forum)

Tier 8: The ugly ducklings

30. Trey Burke, Utah Jazz
29. Isaiah Canaan, Philadelphia 76ers
28. Jose Calderon, New York Knicks
27. Jarrett Jack, Brooklyn Nets

Tier 7: Young, awesome and very, very frustrating

26. D'Angelo Russell, Los Angeles Lakers
25. Emmanuel Mudiay, Denver Nuggets
24. Elfrid Payton, Orlando Magic
23. Marcus Smart, Boston Celtics

Tier 6: A shooter's touch would be nice

22. Rajon Rondo, Sacramento Kings
21. Kemba Walker, Charlotte Hornets
20. Michael Carter-Williams, Milwaukee Bucks

Tier 5: The upper-middle class

19. Deron Williams, Dallas Mavericks
18. Reggie Jackson, Detroit Pistons
17. Ricky Rubio, Minnesota Timberwolves
16. Ty Lawson, Houston Rockets
15. George Hill, Indiana Pacers
14. Jrue Holiday, New Orleans Pelicans
13. Jeff Teague, Atlanta Hawks

Tier 4: A tad too inconsistent for greatness

12. Derrick Rose, Chicago Bulls
11. Kyle Lowry, Toronto Raptors
10. Tony Parker, San Antonio Spurs
9. Eric Bledsoe, Phoenix Suns
8. Damian Lillard, Portland Trail Blazers

Tier 3: Deadly and appreciated

7. Goran Dragic, Miami Heat
6. Mike Conley, Memphis Grizzlies

Tier 2: The forces of nature

5. Kyrie Irving, Cleveland Cavaliers
4. John Wall, Washington Wizards
3. Russell Westbrook, Oklahoma City Thunder

Tier 1: The Point Gods

2. Chris Paul, Los Angeles Clippers
1. Stephen Curry, Golden State Warriors

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/149746896/nba-point-guard-rankings-curry-paul-westbrook

Westbrook belongs on the same tier as Curry and Paul.

Lillard belongs on the same level as Conley, and arguably higher than Dragic. Wall/Irving/Conley/Lillard should be on the same level.

Dragic a tier ahead of Lillard is ???

Quotatious wrote:Westbrook belongs on the same tier as Curry and Paul.

Lillard belongs on the same level as Conley, and arguably higher than Dragic. Wall/Irving/Conley/Lillard should be on the same level.

All this, and Tier 3 reads like Parker and Rose are from 3 years ago. They should be at least a tier down.

Paul does more than everyone perfectly.
Curry the GOAT shooter(spacing/attached man)/mid level scorer and above average playmaking...alot of talent and weaves on that team
Westbrook
Wall
Lillard elite shooter and good playmaker


hard for me to let go of Rose but he just isn't with them anymore.

Quotatious wrote:Westbrook belongs on the same tier as Curry and Paul.

Lillard belongs on the same level as Conley, and arguably higher than Dragic. Wall/Irving/Conley/Lillard should be on the same level.

I agree except for having Conley slightly below the others on that level.

This is only starters right, because I am pretty sure IT and Lou-Will are better than like half of the PGs listed here...

So my question for the "Lillard > Dragic" people is.... why are you so offended?

Let's say hypothetically that you're correct, yes? There are certainly several angles from which one could make a compelling pro-Lillard argument, but Dragic was fantastic last season and exerted a very large and palpable impact on his team's offense while scoring more efficiently than has Lillard done to date in his career. Granted, on smaller volume, but still worth noting because he's far more effective at getting all the way to the rim. Lillard is an extreme "3 or die" player who doesn't offer much when his 3pt shot isn't falling. They are playmakers of a similar level and Lillard is no defensive stalwart. Also, there are a couple of statistics which do favor Lillard; I don't propose they decide the argument, merely that there is some pro-Dragic evidence along with the pro-Lillard anecdotes and evidence.

This is not a laughable comparison, it's an intriguing one with some interesting flavor tones of stylistic difference between the players.

tsherkin wrote:So my question for the "Lillard > Dragic" people is.... why are you so offended?

Let's say hypothetically that you're correct, yes? There are certainly several angles from which one could make a compelling pro-Lillard argument, but Dragic was fantastic last season and exerted a very large and palpable impact on his team's offense while scoring more efficiently than has Lillard done to date in his career. Granted, on smaller volume, but still worth noting because he's far more effective at getting all the way to the rim. Lillard is an extreme "3 or die" player who doesn't offer much when his 3pt shot isn't falling. They are playmakers of a similar level and Lillard is no defensive stalwart. Also, there are a couple of statistics which do favor Lillard; I don't propose they decide the argument, merely that there is some pro-Dragic evidence along with the pro-Lillard anecdotes and evidence.

This is not a laughable comparison, it's an intriguing one with some interesting flavor tones of stylistic difference between the players.

Not really terribly offended, but I think Lillard has a pretty big case over Dragic in a lot of ways:

1. Dragic was (a little) more efficient, plus .017 TS, but volume is definitely a thing. I think at the point of volume Lillard is at I'd take a guy slightly lower efficiency who's going to give a pretty substantial amount more volume.

2. Going to the "extreme 3 or die" point, they shot similar percentages and (sorry for this as they don't have it up anymore for the last season) but at last check Lillard's consistency was better than Dragic (I'd also note that Dragic was also better 2 years ago so I'd think that would increase in Dame's advantage this season).


3. Defense also rates out better statistically speaking for Lillard. He's better in both DRPM, DBPM, D Rating, and as an individual pick and roll defender with Dragic at an advantage in iso and spot ups.

4. Better assist to TO, and he's surprisingly put up better rebounding numbers than Dragic as well despite the size.

tsherkin wrote:So my question for the "Lillard > Dragic" people is.... why are you so offended?

Let's say hypothetically that you're correct, yes? There are certainly several angles from which one could make a compelling pro-Lillard argument, but Dragic was fantastic last season and exerted a very large and palpable impact on his team's offense while scoring more efficiently than has Lillard done to date in his career. Granted, on smaller volume, but still worth noting because he's far more effective at getting all the way to the rim. Lillard is an extreme "3 or die" player who doesn't offer much when his 3pt shot isn't falling. They are playmakers of a similar level and Lillard is no defensive stalwart. Also, there are a couple of statistics which do favor Lillard; I don't propose they decide the argument, merely that there is some pro-Dragic evidence along with the pro-Lillard anecdotes and evidence.

This is not a laughable comparison, it's an intriguing one with some interesting flavor tones of stylistic difference between the players.

Well his hand injury worsened his season tremendously since his strongest trait is his shooting.
Before he severely sprained 2 fingers (and played through it) he was at 41.5 % from three on 6.6 attempts per game in almost 20 games.

Now Dragic had a down season too after his great 2013-2014 season, since he had to mimic as the SG for the Suns and didn't benefit from the 3 headed PG monster they wanted to roll with (Bledsoe, Dragic and Thomas).
Then he came to a new team and was still finding his role and niche for the Heat.

I would say both of them should be on the same tier, but if Lillard can get back to what he was doing before his injury, he will separate himself rather clearly.

It's quite possible for Lillard to break 40 % from three and if he does at this volume (7 3PA's), he will take another big step towards coming closer to the elite.

bondom34 wrote:Not really terribly offended, but I think Lillard has a pretty big case over Dragic in a lot of ways:

HMm. Not what I asked, really. I don't debate the idea that there could be a pro-Lillard argument. I said so explicitly, which nullifies the relevance of making a pro-Lillard argument.

2. Going to the "extreme 3 or die" point, they shot similar percentages and (sorry for this as they don't have it up anymore for the last season) but at last check Lillard's consistency was better than Dragic (I'd also note that Dragic was also better 2 years ago so I'd think that would increase in Dame's advantage this season).

Hmm. I don't really see the relevance here. It's mostly acknowledged that Dame is a better 3pt shooter than Dragic, so this isn't really making traction towards the idea that he's necessarily superior to Dragic.

Like I said, I"m not trying to say Lillard ISN'T better, it's just I'm seeing some really vitriolic responses to the idea that he might not be, and that doesn't square with reality. Whether or not you believe Dragic >= Lillard is immaterial before the quality of the comparison.

Meantime Rebel, 100%, I agree that the injury was an issue and that 3pt shooting is clearly in Lillard's favor, I"m just saying that it behooves one not to laugh at this comparison given the differences between the players and that they are comparatively close in many statistical categories as well.

bondom34 wrote:

tsherkin wrote:So my question for the "Lillard > Dragic" people is.... why are you so offended?

Let's say hypothetically that you're correct, yes? There are certainly several angles from which one could make a compelling pro-Lillard argument, but Dragic was fantastic last season and exerted a very large and palpable impact on his team's offense while scoring more efficiently than has Lillard done to date in his career. Granted, on smaller volume, but still worth noting because he's far more effective at getting all the way to the rim. Lillard is an extreme "3 or die" player who doesn't offer much when his 3pt shot isn't falling. They are playmakers of a similar level and Lillard is no defensive stalwart. Also, there are a couple of statistics which do favor Lillard; I don't propose they decide the argument, merely that there is some pro-Dragic evidence along with the pro-Lillard anecdotes and evidence.

This is not a laughable comparison, it's an intriguing one with some interesting flavor tones of stylistic difference between the players.

Not really terribly offended, but I think Lillard has a pretty big case over Dragic in a lot of ways:

1. Dragic was (a little) more efficient, plus .017 TS, but volume is definitely a thing. I think at the point of volume Lillard is at I'd take a guy slightly lower efficiency who's going to give a pretty substantial amount more volume.

2. Going to the "extreme 3 or die" point, they shot similar percentages and (sorry for this as they don't have it up anymore for the last season) but at last check Lillard's consistency was better than Dragic (I'd also note that Dragic was also better 2 years ago so I'd think that would increase in Dame's advantage this season).

Spoiler:

http://public.tableau.com/shared/JRFGTM3MZ?:display_count=yes

3. Defense also rates out better statistically speaking for Lillard. He's better in both DRPM, DBPM, D Rating, and as an individual pick and roll defender with Dragic at an advantage in iso and spot ups.

4. Better assist to TO, and he's surprisingly put up better rebounding numbers than Dragic as well despite the size.

Great argument to point out.

Thing also is, the efficiency card is way too overblown for my taste.

This 1.7 % difference would have to result in Lillard only scoring 0.6 ppg more a game to get to that level of efficiency.
That's not gonna massively tip anything in favor for Dragic, who scores way less.

Now one could argue Dragic 2013-2014 compared to Lillard would be a hell of an argument, but last year Lillard was just better taking everything into account. Not by a huge margin of course, but I think most would agree he was a tad better, even if someone prefers Dragic's playing style more, which would be understandable.

tsherkin wrote:

bondom34 wrote:Not really terribly offended, but I think Lillard has a pretty big case over Dragic in a lot of ways:

HMm. Not what I asked, really. I don't debate the idea that there could be a pro-Lillard argument. I said so explicitly, which nullifies the relevance of making a pro-Lillard argument.

2. Going to the "extreme 3 or die" point, they shot similar percentages and (sorry for this as they don't have it up anymore for the last season) but at last check Lillard's consistency was better than Dragic (I'd also note that Dragic was also better 2 years ago so I'd think that would increase in Dame's advantage this season).

Hmm. I don't really see the relevance here. It's mostly acknowledged that Dame is a better 3pt shooter than Dragic, so this isn't really making traction towards the idea that he's necessarily superior to Dragic.

Like I said, I"m not trying to say Lillard ISN'T better, it's just I'm seeing some really vitriolic responses to the idea that he might not be, and that doesn't square with reality. Whether or not you believe Dragic >= Lillard is immaterial before the quality of the comparison.

Meantime Rebel, 100%, I agree that the injury was an issue and that 3pt shooting is clearly in Lillard's favor, I"m just saying that it behooves one not to laugh at this comparison given the differences between the players and that they are comparatively close in many statistical categories as well.

Wasn't really terribly vitriolic per se. That said, I think he's got a pretty substantial advantage for the above listed reasons. As said, volume is still a thing, and being a bit better in basically every area tends to make me feel the gap is definitely there.

RebelWithACause wrote:

bondom34 wrote:

tsherkin wrote:So my question for the "Lillard > Dragic" people is.... why are you so offended?

Let's say hypothetically that you're correct, yes? There are certainly several angles from which one could make a compelling pro-Lillard argument, but Dragic was fantastic last season and exerted a very large and palpable impact on his team's offense while scoring more efficiently than has Lillard done to date in his career. Granted, on smaller volume, but still worth noting because he's far more effective at getting all the way to the rim. Lillard is an extreme "3 or die" player who doesn't offer much when his 3pt shot isn't falling. They are playmakers of a similar level and Lillard is no defensive stalwart. Also, there are a couple of statistics which do favor Lillard; I don't propose they decide the argument, merely that there is some pro-Dragic evidence along with the pro-Lillard anecdotes and evidence.

This is not a laughable comparison, it's an intriguing one with some interesting flavor tones of stylistic difference between the players.

Not really terribly offended, but I think Lillard has a pretty big case over Dragic in a lot of ways:

1. Dragic was (a little) more efficient, plus .017 TS, but volume is definitely a thing. I think at the point of volume Lillard is at I'd take a guy slightly lower efficiency who's going to give a pretty substantial amount more volume.

2. Going to the "extreme 3 or die" point, they shot similar percentages and (sorry for this as they don't have it up anymore for the last season) but at last check Lillard's consistency was better than Dragic (I'd also note that Dragic was also better 2 years ago so I'd think that would increase in Dame's advantage this season).

Spoiler:

http://public.tableau.com/shared/JRFGTM3MZ?:display_count=yes

3. Defense also rates out better statistically speaking for Lillard. He's better in both DRPM, DBPM, D Rating, and as an individual pick and roll defender with Dragic at an advantage in iso and spot ups.

4. Better assist to TO, and he's surprisingly put up better rebounding numbers than Dragic as well despite the size.

Great argument to point out.

Thing also is, the efficiency card is way too overblown for my taste.

This 1.7 % difference would have to result in Lillard only scoring 0.6 ppg more a game to get to that level of efficiency.
That's not gonna massively tip anything in favor for Dragic, who scores way less.

Now one could argue Dragic 2013-2014 compared to Lillard would be a hell of an argument, but last year Lillard was just better taking everything into account. Not by a huge margin of course, but I think most would agree he was a tad better, even if someone prefers Dragic's playing style more, which would be understandable.

I do agree that's a much closer comparison to make. Which to me is another showing that I'd take Lillard, as he was still arguably better than that version of Dragic. Really good comp though.

bondom34 wrote:

Quotatious wrote:Westbrook belongs on the same tier as Curry and Paul.

Lillard belongs on the same level as Conley, and arguably higher than Dragic. Wall/Irving/Conley/Lillard should be on the same level.

All this, and Tier 3 reads like Parker and Rose are from 3 years ago. They should be at least a tier down.

Yeah, absolutely. I would add Deron Williams to that category (although he's ranked on a lower tier here) - that tier could be named "washed-up former stars".

bondom34 wrote:

tsherkin wrote:

bondom34 wrote:Not really terribly offended, but I think Lillard has a pretty big case over Dragic in a lot of ways:

HMm. Not what I asked, really. I don't debate the idea that there could be a pro-Lillard argument. I said so explicitly, which nullifies the relevance of making a pro-Lillard argument.

2. Going to the "extreme 3 or die" point, they shot similar percentages and (sorry for this as they don't have it up anymore for the last season) but at last check Lillard's consistency was better than Dragic (I'd also note that Dragic was also better 2 years ago so I'd think that would increase in Dame's advantage this season).

Hmm. I don't really see the relevance here. It's mostly acknowledged that Dame is a better 3pt shooter than Dragic, so this isn't really making traction towards the idea that he's necessarily superior to Dragic.

Like I said, I"m not trying to say Lillard ISN'T better, it's just I'm seeing some really vitriolic responses to the idea that he might not be, and that doesn't square with reality. Whether or not you believe Dragic >= Lillard is immaterial before the quality of the comparison.

Meantime Rebel, 100%, I agree that the injury was an issue and that 3pt shooting is clearly in Lillard's favor, I"m just saying that it behooves one not to laugh at this comparison given the differences between the players and that they are comparatively close in many statistical categories as well.

Wasn't really terribly vitriolic per se. That said, I think he's got a pretty substantial advantage for the above listed reasons. As said, volume is still a thing, and being a bit better in basically every area tends to make me feel the gap is definitely there.

bo, you understand Im not talking about you, right? I recognize thst you have neither acted offended nor responded in vitriolic fashion

Quotatious wrote:

bondom34 wrote:

Quotatious wrote:Westbrook belongs on the same tier as Curry and Paul.

Lillard belongs on the same level as Conley, and arguably higher than Dragic. Wall/Irving/Conley/Lillard should be on the same level.

All this, and Tier 3 reads like Parker and Rose are from 3 years ago. They should be at least a tier down.

Yeah, absolutely. I would add Deron Williams to that category (although he's ranked on a lower tier here) - that tier could be named "washed-up former stars".

Haha, yeah good one.

Though I will say that I am curious about Rose next season. With a rather good playoff display and another injury free summer to invest, maybe he can climb up a tier again.
Being injury riddled myself in my soccer and basketball career, it's actually huge when you are able to play without thinking too much and without fear again.

Deron in a new situation could be interesting too, but don't expect anything out of him.

Parker seems to be declining fast, a last hooray is still possible though.
See Dirk 2014...

tsherkin wrote:

bondom34 wrote:

tsherkin wrote:
HMm. Not what I asked, really. I don't debate the idea that there could be a pro-Lillard argument. I said so explicitly, which nullifies the relevance of making a pro-Lillard argument.



Hmm. I don't really see the relevance here. It's mostly acknowledged that Dame is a better 3pt shooter than Dragic, so this isn't really making traction towards the idea that he's necessarily superior to Dragic.

Like I said, I"m not trying to say Lillard ISN'T better, it's just I'm seeing some really vitriolic responses to the idea that he might not be, and that doesn't square with reality. Whether or not you believe Dragic >= Lillard is immaterial before the quality of the comparison.

Meantime Rebel, 100%, I agree that the injury was an issue and that 3pt shooting is clearly in Lillard's favor, I"m just saying that it behooves one not to laugh at this comparison given the differences between the players and that they are comparatively close in many statistical categories as well.

Wasn't really terribly vitriolic per se. That said, I think he's got a pretty substantial advantage for the above listed reasons. As said, volume is still a thing, and being a bit better in basically every area tends to make me feel the gap is definitely there.

bo, you understand Im not talking about you, right? I recognize thst you have neither acted offended nor responded in vitriolic fashion

DON'T YOU TELL ME IF I'M OFFENDED!

bondom34 wrote:

tsherkin wrote:

bondom34 wrote:Wasn't really terribly vitriolic per se. That said, I think he's got a pretty substantial advantage for the above listed reasons. As said, volume is still a thing, and being a bit better in basically every area tends to make me feel the gap is definitely there.

bo, you understand Im not talking about you, right? I recognize thst you have neither acted offended nor responded in vitriolic fashion

DON'T YOU TELL ME IF I'M OFFENDED!

The perfect response

Tony Parker is tier 8