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So it looks like Bird Vs Magic vs Robinson vs Russell

I think an important question we need debated on is what is it easier to build a team around a defensive Center with offensive pieces to pick up the slack or surround a dominant offensive player with defense to help them out. I fall into more of the latter stage but I dont see either Bird or Magic having defense equal to the offensive impact of Robinson and if he defense is as good as believed, I think it can be almost as impactful as bird or magic's offense, although we've seen plenty of good defenders with average defenses yet a strong offensive player like kobe can will odom and some bums into almost a top 5 offense,the idea that a player can lend more impact to his teammates on O rather than D is something I'm not opposed to listening to.

1st ballot - Bill Russell 1962
2nd ballot - David Robinson 1995
3rd ballot - Julius Erving 1976

I have huge respect for Bill Russell and I explained before why I have him over Robinson.
About Julius - I think his peak is very underrated. 3rd best peak by perimeter player in my opinion. He's LeBron before LeBron, one of the most athletic players ever. Underrated mindrange game and playmaking. GOAT level playoffs (I think even better than LeBron 2009 run).
About his defense - based on what I've seen he was average man defender (really nothing special), but also he was OUTSTANDING help defender. Great at passing lanes and good help shotblocker for a forward.
He is also the best fastbreak scorer ever. Not as good at running fastbreaks as Magic or Cousy, but he was unstopable when he wanted to score. Even better than LeBron I think.
After him I have Bird, Magic and Oscar.

I don't change my choices. I'm suprised that KG is as high as 8 (he's very popular on this site).
After them I have Bird, Magic and Oscar.

Drob will probably be my #1, but 2/3 are really up for grabs. Russell got the spot last round, but lots of other guys with good arguments. Curry got some talk in other threads, probably going to do my own breakdown of the heavy offense players later today, would appreciate if anyone else does something similar to include him as well

1. Magic Johnson 1987
RS: 23.9 PPG 12.2 APG 6.3 RPG 1.7 SPG 0.5 BPG 3.8 TOPG 27 PER 60.2ts% 26.3 WS/48.
In the regular season the Lakers won 65 games. It wasn't only Magic, they had a great team. Still Magic was the best player on that team, and the greats that played with him profited from his great leadership and amazing passing skills. He was scoring good volume, on great efficiency, and his playmaking was at the level that few ever reached (maybe Stockton?). He won the MVP award this season.

Playoffs: 21.8 PPG 12.2 APG 7.7 RPG 1.7 SPG 0.4 BPG 2.8 TOPG 26.2 PER 60.7ts% 26.5 WS/48.
Lakers just destroyed their oponents in the West. So Magic scored less points than he could have. But let's see his finals performances:
26.2 PPG 13 APG 8 RPG 2.3 SPG 0.3 BPG on 59%ts. He had 2 TOPG. So his assist/TO ratio is not comparable to any other player I've ever seen playing in the finals. He outscored Bird, with more efficiency, he had a ton more assists, and was only 2 RPG behind him and turned the ball much less. He even had more steals than Bird! What a great display to end a great season. Magic ended up winning the finals MVP, obviously.

2. Larry Bird 1986
25.8 PPG 9.8 RPG 6.8 APG 25.6 PER 58 ts% 24.8 WS/48
Scoring, rebounding, playmaking and efficiency. Truly amazing offensive impact from Larry the legend. He missed the 50/40/90 by 0.4% from FT, but I guess that's fine.
Dominated the league in PER, WS/48, VORP and BPM.
Celtics won 67 games and had a 9.06 SRS. That's absolutely elite in the regular season. #3 ORTG, #1 DRTG.

In the playoffs:
25.9 PPG 9.3 RPG 8.2 APG 23.9 PER 61.5 ts% 26.3 WS/48
Again a triple double machine, with high efficiency and team success.
In the finals the Celtics defeated Hakeem's Rockets. And Bird was even closer to the triple double average: 24 PPG 9.7 RPG 9.5 APG

Bird won both the MVP and the finals MVP this season.
And if you think his stats are amazing, you should watch him play that season. His impact goes even further, since his ball movement was absolutely terrific.
He also provided a 3 point threat that would still be very effective nowadays. That means he was ahead of his era in that regard, and that's a big plus in my evaluation.

3. Dwyane Wade 2006
RS: 27.2 PPG 5.7 RPG 6.7 APG 27.6 PER 57.7 ts% 23.9 WS/48 7.5 BPM 7 VORP
Wade had a very good regular season. It's maybe not among the best choices for peak here (I have T-Mac 03 above him for example, and even Kobe 06) but it's close enough to those guys.

His volume scoring was fine, his efficiency was very good and for a SG he rebounded very well, was a willing passer and a good playmaker, and his defense was very good too.

The record for the Heat was not fantastic, but Shaq only played 59 games and Shaq was not close to his dominant days (20 PPG 9.2 RPG is still very good, but you know what I'm talking about). I think it was pretty clear that Wade was the #1 on that team. Still, they were the 2nd seed in the East.

PS: 28.4 PPG 5.9 RPG 5.7 APG 26.9 PER 59.3 ts% 24 WS/48

Against the Bulls (1st round) I thought his playmaking was superb, and he still had major contributions with his scoring and rebounding. From there on he was absolutely fantastic.
Against the Nets: 27.6 PPG 6 RPG 6.6 APG on 59.8ts%
And this was supposed to be Wade playing at his best. But apprently, he wasn't.

Against the Pistons in the ECF (a 64 win team and clear favorites to win the East) Wade exploded:
26.7 PPG 5.2 RPG 5.5 APG on 68.4ts%. That's some historical efficiency, specially for a guard! Both game 3 and game 4 are mandatory if you wanna watch peak Wade.

And in the finals... one of the best performances ever in the NBA. Coming back from 0-2, Wade just killed the Mavs:
34.7 PPG 7.8 RPG 3.8 APG on 57.2ts%.He was above 60%ts in 3 of the 4 wins, and scoring a brutal amount of points.

He's still the player with the highest PER ever in the NBA finals.

Call for David Robinson supporters to address

E-Balla wrote:Also you mention his faceup game being deadly? Couldn't be further from the truth. It was useful in the regular season but in a 7 game series against great defenders its not trustworthy. His performances against good defenses in the playoffs are historically disappointing outside of his rookie season.

From 93-96 he played 8 series. He played good defenses 3 times (Portland in 93, Utah in 94 and 96). Outside of that he also played 2 ATG Cs (Hakeem and Mutombo in 95) and here's how he performed:

vs Portland 93 (4th ranked defense): 19.3 ppg, 2.3 orpg, 4.8 apg, 2.0 topg, 48.7 TS%, 107 ORTG. This 4 game series included a 6/20 performance and a 4/11 performance in games 1 and 2.

vs Utah 94 (7th ranked defense): 20 ppg, 3.3 orpg, 3.5 apg, 2.3 topg, 47.1 TS%, 104 ORTG. Again they lost in 4. This time lost games 2 and 3 (in a best to 3) with Robinson shooting 10-35 for 28 points in those games combined.

vs Denver 95 (with Deke): 19 ppg, 1.7 orpg, 3.3 apg, 2.0 topg, 49.3 TS%, 105 ORTG. They swept but he did struggle against Deke and they won mostly due to the offense which was flourishing despite bad performances from Robinson.

vs Houston 95 (with Hakeem) has been a topic of conversation for a minute now so I won't list the numbers totally (23.8 ppg for DR). I'd just like to mention again that he shot under 40% 3 games in this series and had under a 90 ORTG in all 3 games.

vs Utah 96 (8th ranked defense): 19.3 ppg, 3.7 orpg, 2.0 apg, 2.3 topg, 52.6 TS%, 107 ORTG. Looks better than the rest on paper but he had under a 50 TS% in 4 games and the other 2 games were blowout losses (73 TS% in a game 1 20 point loss and 74 TS% in only 24 minutes of a game 4 15 point loss). Honestly outside of games 1 and 2 he was flat out bad.

I don't think a player like him can really be relied on in the postseason offensively. Now defensively there's another issue: in series where he disappointed offensively (is the 5 above) more often than not his team also underperformed defensively. In 93 they held Portland better than expected (-2.5) but Clyde missed game 1 (Portland's worst offensive performance of the series with a 95.0 ORTG). Take out that game and San Antonio performed worse than expected defensively. San Antonio also performed well against Denver (-4.2) but they were led by rookie Jalen Rose offensively by the time the playoffs came.

In 95 Houston performed better than expected (+3.0) mainly because of Hakeem's play and Utah killed them in 94 and 96 with the PNR (+4.0 in 94 and +5.7 in 96). TBH I'm not sure if I trust his defense to stand when he's taken out of the game offensively. I want to say its a small sample but 23 games is a pretty large postseason sample for Robinson to look so unspectacular in during his "peak" years.

This, in a nutshell, is the type of post that always puts me back on my heels in these projects. I come into each one thinking that Robinson has a case to move up a level, but every time someone puts a post like this together that I can't ignore.

I wanted to blame Robinson's slide in the rankings to perception (e.g. based off the Hakeem series) that isn't fair...then in the RPoY Kaima just point-by-point hammered home that Malone in 94 and 96 was outplaying Robinson just as badly as Hakeem did...and I couldn't argue it.

By the time we got to the top-100 projects I was ready to argue for Robinson again, but this time guys like ElGee and Doc Mustafa and others had a narrative that worked about how Robinson's face-up offensive style didn't work in the postseason, and some suggested that his playoff defense was also shaky by looking at things like opponent's performance vs. expectation, and...it was difficult for me to argue against it.

Now, in this project, Dr. Spaceman has pushed the envelope. He's had several people voting for Robinson for several threads now, and he's got Robinson on everyone's radar. But again, I run into a post like this and...it's hard for me to argue. So I need someone else to do it for me.

The situation

1) The offense. I'm one of the most outspoken people around about how we can over-emphasize a player's scoring efficiency in trying to evaluate his level. Thus, I'm more than open to the idea that a player can be having just as large an impact, if not larger, in the postseason even if his TS% drops a few points. However, in these examples (which apparently contain both his most difficult defenses as well as the teams that eliminated his squads over his peak seasons) not only is Robinson's TS% down a few points...based on the numbers that E balla posted (plus me guestimating that Robinson averaged 23.8 pts on about 55% TS against Hakeem), counting each series equally (e.g. not going per-game or shot-for-shot for true averages, just ball-parking it) Robinson is around 20 points on about 51% TS over those 5 series. That's down like 6 points and 8% TS points from his regular season averages over that stretch. That's a huge drop-off in both scoring volume and scoring efficiency.

So, what I need from a Robinson supporter (or even just an interested an energetic bystander who has insight and is willing to build the case, is an explanation that makes sense. Does a) Robinson's offense have a larger non-boxscore impact than I was previously crediting him for that would allow him to maintain offensive impact in the face of such a large drop-off in both scoring volume and efficiency? Was he drawing so much defensive attention in these match-ups that he was able to warp the defense to a larger than normal degree and set-up his teammates with much easier shots? Was he distracting the opposing interior defenders to the degree that their help defense suffered, thus allowing his teammates to thrive? Something. Just some logical, reasonable explanation besides "the regular season counts too". I know the regular season counts, and I know that in bad situations playoff boxscores can be misleading but...whenever someone really goes in depth on Robinson's playoffs, it doesn't seem misleading or flukish. It seems more like something that could be a significant impediment to his ability to lead teams to a title, at least on the level of the other guys with top-10 type peaks like Russell, Magic, Bird or Walton. So I'd love it if someone could break it down for me and help me believe that it isn't the impediment that, on first blush, it might seem to be.

2) The defense. The main argument for Robinson's offensive struggles not being so damning, for me, is that even with just solid offense you'd still be getting one of the best defenders of all time with him. I've seen the question of Robinson's team defensive efforts in the playoffs raised, including in this project, but Spaceman and others have raised enough doubts about the methodology and that the questionable series might average out with the better-than-expected series to not matter so much. But again, here, E-balla is specifically arguing that it is the series in which Robinson is struggling offensively that the team's defense underperforms. And he makes the case that 4 of these 5 series (if you correct for Drexler's 1 game absence) match up with 4 of the series where Robinson's team defenses under-achieved expectation. And again, the 4 series that he amplifies as the team's defense struggling include: all three series that Robinson's teams were eliminated in his 3 peak 94 - 96 seasons, each of which marked a match-up with another ATG big, each of which also corresponded to lower than usual offensive output.

Again, it's one thing for me to forgive a few points of TS%, especially in cases when closer examination of the situation reveals other ways in which the player is making their impact. But if the case is made, as Robinson's critics have made it in every big project we've done on this board since 2011, that Robinson's game SPECIFICALLY ...on offense (but perhaps, apparently on defense too)...that his game has SPECIFIC weaknesses that translated to the playoffs and directly prevented him from being successful against teams of similar caliber to his own, which then translated directly into his lack of team success at his peak...then that's a much stronger case that, to me, should be addressed and put into perspective before I can rank Robinson above the Magics, Birds, Waltons and Oscars of the world.

I'm MORE than willing to be persuaded onto Robinson's side. I just need an explanation that makes sense, that survives scrutiny and analysis into the context of the situation. Spaceman, Trex, anyone...care to give me a pitch?

Joao Saraiva wrote:1. Magic Johnson 1987
RS: 23.9 PPG 12.2 APG 6.3 RPG 1.7 SPG 0.5 BPG 3.8 TOPG 27 PER 60.2ts% 26.3 WS/48.
In the regular season the Lakers won 65 games. It wasn't only Magic, they had a great team. Still Magic was the best player on that team, and the greats that played with him profited from his great leadership and amazing passing skills. He was scoring good volume, on great efficiency, and his playmaking was at the level that few ever reached (maybe Stockton?). He won the MVP award this season.

Playoffs: 21.8 PPG 12.2 APG 7.7 RPG 1.7 SPG 0.4 BPG 2.8 TOPG 26.2 PER 60.7ts% 26.5 WS/48.
Lakers just destroyed their oponents in the West. So Magic scored less points than he could have. But let's see his finals performances:
26.2 PPG 13 APG 8 RPG 2.3 SPG 0.3 BPG on 59%ts. He had 2 TOPG. So his assist/TO ratio is not comparable to any other player I've ever seen playing in the finals. He outscored Bird, with more efficiency, he had a ton more assists, and was only 2 RPG behind him and turned the ball much less. He even had more steals than Bird! What a great display to end a great season. Magic ended up winning the finals MVP, obviously.

2. Larry Bird 1986
25.8 PPG 9.8 RPG 6.8 APG 25.6 PER 58 ts% 24.8 WS/48
Scoring, rebounding, playmaking and efficiency. Truly amazing offensive impact from Larry the legend. He missed the 50/40/90 by 0.4% from FT, but I guess that's fine.
Dominated the league in PER, WS/48, VORP and BPM.
Celtics won 67 games and had a 9.06 SRS. That's absolutely elite in the regular season. #3 ORTG, #1 DRTG.

In the playoffs:
25.9 PPG 9.3 RPG 8.2 APG 23.9 PER 61.5 ts% 26.3 WS/48
Again a triple double machine, with high efficiency and team success.
In the finals the Celtics defeated Hakeem's Rockets. And Bird was even closer to the triple double average: 24 PPG 9.7 RPG 9.5 APG

Bird won both the MVP and the finals MVP this season.
And if you think his stats are amazing, you should watch him play that season. His impact goes even further, since his ball movement was absolutely terrific.
He also provided a 3 point threat that would still be very effective nowadays. That means he was ahead of his era in that regard, and that's a big plus in my evaluation.

3. Dwyane Wade 2006
RS: 27.2 PPG 5.7 RPG 6.7 APG 27.6 PER 57.7 ts% 23.9 WS/48 7.5 BPM 7 VORP
Wade had a very good regular season. It's maybe not among the best choices for peak here (I have T-Mac 03 above him for example, and even Kobe 06) but it's close enough to those guys.

His volume scoring was fine, his efficiency was very good and for a SG he rebounded very well, was a willing passer and a good playmaker, and his defense was very good too.

The record for the Heat was not fantastic, but Shaq only played 59 games and Shaq was not close to his dominant days (20 PPG 9.2 RPG is still very good, but you know what I'm talking about). I think it was pretty clear that Wade was the #1 on that team. Still, they were the 2nd seed in the East.

PS: 28.4 PPG 5.9 RPG 5.7 APG 26.9 PER 59.3 ts% 24 WS/48

Against the Bulls (1st round) I thought his playmaking was superb, and he still had major contributions with his scoring and rebounding. From there on he was absolutely fantastic.
Against the Nets: 27.6 PPG 6 RPG 6.6 APG on 59.8ts%
And this was supposed to be Wade playing at his best. But apprently, he wasn't.

Against the Pistons in the ECF (a 64 win team and clear favorites to win the East) Wade exploded:
26.7 PPG 5.2 RPG 5.5 APG on 68.4ts%. That's some historical efficiency, specially for a guard! Both game 3 and game 4 are mandatory if you wanna watch peak Wade.

And in the finals... one of the best performances ever in the NBA. Coming back from 0-2, Wade just killed the Mavs:
34.7 PPG 7.8 RPG 3.8 APG on 57.2ts%.He was above 60%ts in 3 of the 4 wins, and scoring a brutal amount of points.

He's still the player with the highest PER ever in the NBA finals.

Wade over Robinson huh? I've toyed with that idea, but i'm not sure Wade's offensive gap is bigger than the defensive one?

Also why 06 for peak Wade? Is it because its his best mix of regular and postseason play? I would still go with 2009, his offense was more developed at that point and he had his best regular season by far. I don't consider the postseason as much, because his team was much worse that year, and e still put up about 29/5/5 on 56-57 ts% so it isn't like he had a bad series. I think if 09 Wade had an adequate team, he would've took them deep.

I have no problem if someone takes 06>09 though.

mischievous wrote:

Joao Saraiva wrote:1. Magic Johnson 1987
RS: 23.9 PPG 12.2 APG 6.3 RPG 1.7 SPG 0.5 BPG 3.8 TOPG 27 PER 60.2ts% 26.3 WS/48.
In the regular season the Lakers won 65 games. It wasn't only Magic, they had a great team. Still Magic was the best player on that team, and the greats that played with him profited from his great leadership and amazing passing skills. He was scoring good volume, on great efficiency, and his playmaking was at the level that few ever reached (maybe Stockton?). He won the MVP award this season.

Playoffs: 21.8 PPG 12.2 APG 7.7 RPG 1.7 SPG 0.4 BPG 2.8 TOPG 26.2 PER 60.7ts% 26.5 WS/48.
Lakers just destroyed their oponents in the West. So Magic scored less points than he could have. But let's see his finals performances:
26.2 PPG 13 APG 8 RPG 2.3 SPG 0.3 BPG on 59%ts. He had 2 TOPG. So his assist/TO ratio is not comparable to any other player I've ever seen playing in the finals. He outscored Bird, with more efficiency, he had a ton more assists, and was only 2 RPG behind him and turned the ball much less. He even had more steals than Bird! What a great display to end a great season. Magic ended up winning the finals MVP, obviously.

2. Larry Bird 1986
25.8 PPG 9.8 RPG 6.8 APG 25.6 PER 58 ts% 24.8 WS/48
Scoring, rebounding, playmaking and efficiency. Truly amazing offensive impact from Larry the legend. He missed the 50/40/90 by 0.4% from FT, but I guess that's fine.
Dominated the league in PER, WS/48, VORP and BPM.
Celtics won 67 games and had a 9.06 SRS. That's absolutely elite in the regular season. #3 ORTG, #1 DRTG.

In the playoffs:
25.9 PPG 9.3 RPG 8.2 APG 23.9 PER 61.5 ts% 26.3 WS/48
Again a triple double machine, with high efficiency and team success.
In the finals the Celtics defeated Hakeem's Rockets. And Bird was even closer to the triple double average: 24 PPG 9.7 RPG 9.5 APG

Bird won both the MVP and the finals MVP this season.
And if you think his stats are amazing, you should watch him play that season. His impact goes even further, since his ball movement was absolutely terrific.
He also provided a 3 point threat that would still be very effective nowadays. That means he was ahead of his era in that regard, and that's a big plus in my evaluation.

3. Dwyane Wade 2006
RS: 27.2 PPG 5.7 RPG 6.7 APG 27.6 PER 57.7 ts% 23.9 WS/48 7.5 BPM 7 VORP
Wade had a very good regular season. It's maybe not among the best choices for peak here (I have T-Mac 03 above him for example, and even Kobe 06) but it's close enough to those guys.

His volume scoring was fine, his efficiency was very good and for a SG he rebounded very well, was a willing passer and a good playmaker, and his defense was very good too.

The record for the Heat was not fantastic, but Shaq only played 59 games and Shaq was not close to his dominant days (20 PPG 9.2 RPG is still very good, but you know what I'm talking about). I think it was pretty clear that Wade was the #1 on that team. Still, they were the 2nd seed in the East.

PS: 28.4 PPG 5.9 RPG 5.7 APG 26.9 PER 59.3 ts% 24 WS/48

Against the Bulls (1st round) I thought his playmaking was superb, and he still had major contributions with his scoring and rebounding. From there on he was absolutely fantastic.
Against the Nets: 27.6 PPG 6 RPG 6.6 APG on 59.8ts%
And this was supposed to be Wade playing at his best. But apprently, he wasn't.

Against the Pistons in the ECF (a 64 win team and clear favorites to win the East) Wade exploded:
26.7 PPG 5.2 RPG 5.5 APG on 68.4ts%. That's some historical efficiency, specially for a guard! Both game 3 and game 4 are mandatory if you wanna watch peak Wade.

And in the finals... one of the best performances ever in the NBA. Coming back from 0-2, Wade just killed the Mavs:
34.7 PPG 7.8 RPG 3.8 APG on 57.2ts%.He was above 60%ts in 3 of the 4 wins, and scoring a brutal amount of points.

He's still the player with the highest PER ever in the NBA finals.

Wade over Robinson huh? I've toyed with that idea, but i'm not sure Wade's offensive gap is bigger than the defensive one?

Also why 06 for peak Wade? Is it because its his best mix of regular and postseason play? I would still go with 2009, his offense was more developed at that point and he had his best regular season by far. I don't consider the postseason as much, because his team was much worse that year, and e still put up about 29/5/5 on 56-57 ts% so it isn't like he had a bad series. I think if 09 Wade had an adequate team, he would've took them deep.

I have no problem if someone takes 06>09 though.

I understand all of your questions.

For me it's hard to evaluate the best season of Wade (between 06 or 09). I think 09 has the edge in the regular season, but 06 was a tremendous playoff run. And I take that as something very important.

The offensive gap is very big. Specially in playoff time.

What Wade did was at the level of LeBron, MJ, Bird, Magic or Shaq in playoff time, or at least in the same tier. That's really the elite of basketball.

I value offense a bit more than D, but that's just me. I have no problem with KG or Robinson above Wade.

Joao Saraiva wrote:

mischievous wrote:

Joao Saraiva wrote:1. Magic Johnson 1987
RS: 23.9 PPG 12.2 APG 6.3 RPG 1.7 SPG 0.5 BPG 3.8 TOPG 27 PER 60.2ts% 26.3 WS/48.
In the regular season the Lakers won 65 games. It wasn't only Magic, they had a great team. Still Magic was the best player on that team, and the greats that played with him profited from his great leadership and amazing passing skills. He was scoring good volume, on great efficiency, and his playmaking was at the level that few ever reached (maybe Stockton?). He won the MVP award this season.

Playoffs: 21.8 PPG 12.2 APG 7.7 RPG 1.7 SPG 0.4 BPG 2.8 TOPG 26.2 PER 60.7ts% 26.5 WS/48.
Lakers just destroyed their oponents in the West. So Magic scored less points than he could have. But let's see his finals performances:
26.2 PPG 13 APG 8 RPG 2.3 SPG 0.3 BPG on 59%ts. He had 2 TOPG. So his assist/TO ratio is not comparable to any other player I've ever seen playing in the finals. He outscored Bird, with more efficiency, he had a ton more assists, and was only 2 RPG behind him and turned the ball much less. He even had more steals than Bird! What a great display to end a great season. Magic ended up winning the finals MVP, obviously.

2. Larry Bird 1986
25.8 PPG 9.8 RPG 6.8 APG 25.6 PER 58 ts% 24.8 WS/48
Scoring, rebounding, playmaking and efficiency. Truly amazing offensive impact from Larry the legend. He missed the 50/40/90 by 0.4% from FT, but I guess that's fine.
Dominated the league in PER, WS/48, VORP and BPM.
Celtics won 67 games and had a 9.06 SRS. That's absolutely elite in the regular season. #3 ORTG, #1 DRTG.

In the playoffs:
25.9 PPG 9.3 RPG 8.2 APG 23.9 PER 61.5 ts% 26.3 WS/48
Again a triple double machine, with high efficiency and team success.
In the finals the Celtics defeated Hakeem's Rockets. And Bird was even closer to the triple double average: 24 PPG 9.7 RPG 9.5 APG

Bird won both the MVP and the finals MVP this season.
And if you think his stats are amazing, you should watch him play that season. His impact goes even further, since his ball movement was absolutely terrific.
He also provided a 3 point threat that would still be very effective nowadays. That means he was ahead of his era in that regard, and that's a big plus in my evaluation.

3. Dwyane Wade 2006
RS: 27.2 PPG 5.7 RPG 6.7 APG 27.6 PER 57.7 ts% 23.9 WS/48 7.5 BPM 7 VORP
Wade had a very good regular season. It's maybe not among the best choices for peak here (I have T-Mac 03 above him for example, and even Kobe 06) but it's close enough to those guys.

His volume scoring was fine, his efficiency was very good and for a SG he rebounded very well, was a willing passer and a good playmaker, and his defense was very good too.

The record for the Heat was not fantastic, but Shaq only played 59 games and Shaq was not close to his dominant days (20 PPG 9.2 RPG is still very good, but you know what I'm talking about). I think it was pretty clear that Wade was the #1 on that team. Still, they were the 2nd seed in the East.

PS: 28.4 PPG 5.9 RPG 5.7 APG 26.9 PER 59.3 ts% 24 WS/48

Against the Bulls (1st round) I thought his playmaking was superb, and he still had major contributions with his scoring and rebounding. From there on he was absolutely fantastic.
Against the Nets: 27.6 PPG 6 RPG 6.6 APG on 59.8ts%
And this was supposed to be Wade playing at his best. But apprently, he wasn't.

Against the Pistons in the ECF (a 64 win team and clear favorites to win the East) Wade exploded:
26.7 PPG 5.2 RPG 5.5 APG on 68.4ts%. That's some historical efficiency, specially for a guard! Both game 3 and game 4 are mandatory if you wanna watch peak Wade.

And in the finals... one of the best performances ever in the NBA. Coming back from 0-2, Wade just killed the Mavs:
34.7 PPG 7.8 RPG 3.8 APG on 57.2ts%.He was above 60%ts in 3 of the 4 wins, and scoring a brutal amount of points.

He's still the player with the highest PER ever in the NBA finals.

Wade over Robinson huh? I've toyed with that idea, but i'm not sure Wade's offensive gap is bigger than the defensive one?

Also why 06 for peak Wade? Is it because its his best mix of regular and postseason play? I would still go with 2009, his offense was more developed at that point and he had his best regular season by far. I don't consider the postseason as much, because his team was much worse that year, and e still put up about 29/5/5 on 56-57 ts% so it isn't like he had a bad series. I think if 09 Wade had an adequate team, he would've took them deep.

I have no problem if someone takes 06>09 though.

I understand all of your questions.

For me it's hard to evaluate the best season of Wade (between 06 or 09). I think 09 has the edge in the regular season, but 06 was a tremendous playoff run. And I take that as something very important.

The offensive gap is very big. Specially in playoff time.

What Wade did was at the level of LeBron, MJ, Bird, Magic or Shaq in playoff time, or at least in the same tier. That's really the elite of basketball.

I value offense a bit more than D, but that's just me. I have no problem with KG or Robinson above Wade.

Well i uses to have it KG>Wade>Drob in peaks but i'm not sure that is consistent? Is there a way for that to be fair you think? I'm starting to think if i have KG>Wade, then i must have Drob over him too.

RSCD3_ wrote:So it looks like Bird Vs Magic vs Robinson vs Russell

I think an important question we need debated on is what is it easier to build a team around a defensive Center with offensive pieces to pick up the slack or surround a dominant offensive player with defense to help them out. I fall into more of the latter stage but I dont see either Bird or Magic having defense equal to the offensive impact of Robinson and if he defense is as good as believed, I think it can be almost as impactful as bird or magic's offense, although we've seen plenty of good defenders with average defenses yet a strong offensive player like kobe can will odom and some bums into almost a top 5 offense,the idea that a player can lend more impact to his teammates on O rather than D is something I'm not opposed to listening to.

Here's an argument I find myself getting into often: Offense vs Defense.

Personally I think offense matters way more especially on an individual level but also on a team level. Here are the top offenses in league history (by z-score) up until 2010:


And the top defenses:


The first thing that stands out to me is that there are 9 offenses better than the number 2 defense. The second thing is the massive difference between the z-scores of the GOAT defensive dynasty and the GOAT offensive dynasty. The Nash Suns have an average z-score of 2.64 in their top 5 years and the Russell Celtics have an average z-score of 2.09 in their top 5 years. That doesn't sound like much but that's the difference between the 99.2nd percentile and the 96.3rd percentile. These numbers show there's a real cap on how good a defense can be and it follows the logic of the game. You can play perfect defense but it means nothing if a lucky shot goes in.

For another quick comparison on the individual impact of offense vs defense let's use prime Ewing vs Nash as they've led what are probably the best defensive and offensive dynasties since Russell was patrolling Boston. Nash on average from 02-10 (across 2 different teams) had an average 7.1 offense. Ewing on the same team (with 3 different coaches) from 92-99 had an average -5.6 defense with only 2 seasons above the 7.1 mark (93 and 94).

When I first noticed this I thought both sides were equal and I tried to come up with reasons why its easier to break away from the mean offensively compared to defensively and I came to a few conclusions.

The first, as mentioned above, is that perfect offense beats perfect defense. You can stop a team from advancing past the baseline but if they're perfect (meaning they keep their handle) they can still make a half court heave. Extreme example I know but we all know there's some things you can't stop with great defense. Look at Melo and Lebron's 60 point games against Charlotte. MKG guarded both well and was still getting burnt. They didn't do as well against him as they did against other guys but in a vacuum they were still very good.

The second conclusion is that one man can make a great offense but not a defense. To illustrate this point I'll use the GOAT defender of the last 40 years (IMO) Deke. Towards the end of his tenure with Denver, Bernie Bickerstaff, and the worst defensive supporting cast in the league outside of Antonio McDyess, the Nuggets struggled to be average defensively. He goes to the Hawks (who were previously an average defense more or less) and they're a top 3 defense his first season with him while Denver dropped to the bottom 5 of the league. With other great defenders that were stuck with a terrible supporting cast and coach we see the same thing. KG was leading average defenses most years and Zo was leading some mediocre defenses until he went to Miami and immediately started leading top 5 level defenses. Meanwhile we can look at a guy like T-Mac, Harden, and Melo all of whom were not GOAT level offensive players consistently (because 03 T-Mac is up there) but they all have always had top 10 offenses and sometimes top 5 offenses (mainly thinking of the 13 Knicks and Rockets here) despite not having much to work with.

The third conclusion I came to and the one that most changed my mind on defensive players is that defensive coaches get good defensive production out of some bad teams. Doc Rivers is never usually seen as a defensive savant but with some of the stinker teams he's had you'd think he's had some bad defenses when the worst defense he's ever coached (or a full season because 11 games in 04 isn't a large enough sample) was only +1.4 (03 Magic). Outside of that his teams at worst have been around 15th on defense (once they finished 20th but were only +0.9 compared to league average). Meanwhile you look at a guy like D'antoni and he's had some pretty bad offenses. You look at a guy like JVG and notice the worst defense he's ever coached was still a -2.9 team that finished 6th. You look at a guy like Pat Riley and notice he once led a +2.5 defense (on a 17 win Miami team with a -7.0 offense) but outside of that always had an average level defense at worst. You can also look at ATG defenders that had good teams around them and notice that without a great defensive coach they never were first on defense.

Another post in the last thread I quoted mentioned David Robinson going from leading 2 1st ranked defenses under Larry Brown (another ATG defensive coach who's first #1 defense came his first year in the NBA) to leading a 9th ranked defense under John Lucas and peaking at 3rd under Hill before finally going back to number one defenses after Popvich (and Duncan) came. Look at Hakeem rarely having a top 3 defense and always having a ton of defensive talent around him and decent (but not great) defensive coaches like Don Chaney (5x all defense in his playing career) and Bill Fitch. Look at a team like the Bucks going from the bottom of the barrel to the top with a coaching change (yes the players improved some as they were all young but they didn't improve enough to go from 30th to 4th).

On the other end of the floor you notice great PGs usually don't need coaches to implement strategy. Nash still led great teams without D'antoni and Magic notoriously got Westhead fired because he felt he was stepping on his toes (which led to LA hiring a defensive coach and going on to having one of the GOAT dynasties). Chris Paul just recently went from VDN to Doc and the offense improved with Doc telling Chris to push the pace a little more but that's probably more of a result of the Clippers dumping some offensive dead weight for guys like JJ Redick and Blake Griffin taking that next step in his game to become a legit MVP level player.

As far as what this means for Magic and Bird vs Robinson I think Magic and Bird's offense easily trumps his defense and while Robinson's offense might beat both of their defenses in the regular season Bird at least has shown more defense than you can expect from Robinson's offense in the playoffs.

1st ballot: ’86 Larry Bird

As for Bird, he led one of the best teams ever to a 67-15 record and a championship (after going 15-3 in the playoffs). Had a great supporting cast (McHale, Parish, Walton, DJ, Ainge) but was the unquestionable leader of the team. Averaged 26/10/7 in the RS on 49.6/42.3/89.6 shooting (58.0 TS%) while playing all 82 games. All advanced stats point to Bird having outstanding impact while on the court (0.244 WS/48, 9.1 BPM, 8.7 VORP). Was even a statistically superb defender (99 DRtg, 2.8 DBPM) even though his man to man defense might have been lacking. In the playoffs, Bird had 4 great/very good series (28/8/8 on 64.2 TS% vs Bulls, 27/10/6 on 59.9 TS% vs Hawks, 25/10/8 on 67.1 TS% vs Bucks, 24/9.7/9.5 on 57.8 TS% vs Rockets). More importantly, Bird was very dependable and consistent with his production in his playoffs. In the Finals, when his efficiency took a slight dip, his team took 2 losses in the series (more losses than the rest of the playoffs combined). Again, this shows how impactful Bird was regardless of his elite supporting cast.

2nd ballot: 87’ Magic Johnson

In the regular season, Magic averaged 23.9/6.3/12.2 with 1.7 steals on 60.2 TS% with 15.9 WS, 8.1 BPM and 7.4 VORP. Lakers went 65-17 with an SRS of 8.31 and had the best offense in the league (115.6 ORtg) and the 7th best defense (106.5 DRtg). This was the year where Magic increased his scoring load significantly (averaged <20 PPG each of the precious 5 seasons), while still maintaining elite efficiency. Was obviously a GOAT level playmaker and rebounder for his position as well. Defensively, Magic was average at best but he did rack up a decent amount of steals. Went 15-3 in the playoffs and finished it off with a Finals series where he averaged 26/8/13 on 59.0 TS%. Also had that clutch game 4 where he put in a “baby skyhook” with 2 seconds left to win the game.

3rd ballot: 65’ Bill Russell

Great season by the GOAT defensive player. Averaged 14/24/5 in the RS and led his team to a 62-18 record. Celtics had the best defense in the league but only the 7th best offense (out of 9 teams). In the playoffs, Russell averaged 16.5 points on an uncharacteristic 52.7 FG%. After beating Wilt’s Sixers, Russell destroyed the Lakers who had no one to match up with him.

mischievous wrote:

Joao Saraiva wrote:

mischievous wrote:Wade over Robinson huh? I've toyed with that idea, but i'm not sure Wade's offensive gap is bigger than the defensive one?

Also why 06 for peak Wade? Is it because its his best mix of regular and postseason play? I would still go with 2009, his offense was more developed at that point and he had his best regular season by far. I don't consider the postseason as much, because his team was much worse that year, and e still put up about 29/5/5 on 56-57 ts% so it isn't like he had a bad series. I think if 09 Wade had an adequate team, he would've took them deep.

I have no problem if someone takes 06>09 though.

I understand all of your questions.

For me it's hard to evaluate the best season of Wade (between 06 or 09). I think 09 has the edge in the regular season, but 06 was a tremendous playoff run. And I take that as something very important.

The offensive gap is very big. Specially in playoff time.

What Wade did was at the level of LeBron, MJ, Bird, Magic or Shaq in playoff time, or at least in the same tier. That's really the elite of basketball.

I value offense a bit more than D, but that's just me. I have no problem with KG or Robinson above Wade.

Well i uses to have it KG>Wade>Drob in peaks but i'm not sure that is consistent? Is there a way for that to be fair you think? I'm starting to think if i have KG>Wade, then i must have Drob over him too.

Why are you not sure if it is consistent? Personally I have Wade over both (again as Joao mentioned peak/prime Wade's postseason offense is Jordan-esque) but KG IMO has way less questions regarding his offensive performances. KG was the first option for the 08 Celtics championship team (led in USG and PPG), and from 01-04 averaged 24.4 ppg, 5.0 apg, and 3.6 topg on 52.4 TS% (slightly above average for the early 2000s) with a 104 ORTG (again average level). He had his failures scoring the ball which takes him down a peg IMO but he never struggled to be a high level playmaker in the postseason kind of similar to Bird when he was at SF (23.6 AST% in regular season from 01-04 and 23.3 in the postseason). KG's production "drop" can be expected as he usually increased his usage and raw production (from 01-04 he only averaged 22.6 ppg on 54.3 TS% in the regular season) and his efficiency drops weren't bad considering he was playing better defenses.

Robinson OTOH saw both his efficiency and volume drop to levels below KG while rarely playing any good defensive teams in the postseason.

More on Wade vs other guys (basically Kobe for now since he should be coming up very soon if Wade's getting mentioned now and people are ready for Curry posts) as far as postseason performance goes:


IIRC Wade is the best of all major players (Jordan, Kobe, Lebron from 08-14, Hakeem, Dirk, etc) looking at Game Score against sub 104 defenses and Lebron is the only player with a higher TS% I'll keep looking for the numbers for the rest of those guys and for Lebron in his actual prime of 08-14. I'll also look to see if I can find the average defensive rating of the teams these guys played.

E-Balla wrote:

mischievous wrote:

Joao Saraiva wrote:
I understand all of your questions.

For me it's hard to evaluate the best season of Wade (between 06 or 09). I think 09 has the edge in the regular season, but 06 was a tremendous playoff run. And I take that as something very important.

The offensive gap is very big. Specially in playoff time.

What Wade did was at the level of LeBron, MJ, Bird, Magic or Shaq in playoff time, or at least in the same tier. That's really the elite of basketball.

I value offense a bit more than D, but that's just me. I have no problem with KG or Robinson above Wade.

Well i uses to have it KG>Wade>Drob in peaks but i'm not sure that is consistent? Is there a way for that to be fair you think? I'm starting to think if i have KG>Wade, then i must have Drob over him too.

Well why are you not sure if it is consistent. Personally I have Wade over both (again as Joao mentioned peak/prime Wade's postseason offense is Jordan-esque) but KG IMO has way less questions regarding his offensive performances. KG was the first option for the 08 Celtics championship team (led in USG and PPG), and from 01-04 averaged 24.4 ppg, 5.0 apg, and 3.6 topg on 52.4 TS% (slightly above average for the early 2000s) with a 104 ORTG (again average level). He had his failures scoring the ball which takes him down a peg IMO but he never struggled to be a high level playmaker in the postseason kind of similar to Bird when he was at SF (23.6 AST% in regular season from 01-04 and 23.3 in the postseason). KG's production "drop" can be expected as he usually increased his usage and raw production (from 01-04 he only averaged 22.6 ppg on 54.3 TS% in the regular season) and his efficiency drops weren't bad considering he was playing better defenses.

Robinson OTOH saw both his efficiency and volume drop to levels below KG while rarely playing any good defensive teams in the postseason.

I think that's a good reply, and by that I can see the argument for KG>Wade>Robinson.

For me it doesn't work, since I believe Wade is in another tier on offense.

Robinson is definitely the player I have the most issues with playoff drops. His regular seasons have something special, some GOAT level on them. But then in the playoffs... the drop is just tremendous.

With Karl Malone I have some issues. Specially about his ts%. But at least his raw production was there, and sometimes even increased. While other all time greats go arround 60%ts even several times in the post-season Malone usually drops it a lot, even if not playing bad he wasn't playing as great as the other ATG.

I would only say here that Robinson faced some good defenses and defenders. When you face peak Hakeem you know he's gonna bring you trouble.

It's really difficult to make such rankings, because the gaps are small and we value diferent things.

Ballot #1 - 87 Magic
Ballot #2 - 86 Bird
Ballot #3 - 76 Dr. J

--------------------

Ballot #1 - 87 Magic

Magic was a unique and special player. Took his game to another level that season, especially when relied on more as a primary offensive option. He led the lakers to league best 67-15 record and ultimately the championship against the celtics.

RS - 23.9 PPG, 6.3 RPG, 12.2 APG, 1.7 SPG, .5 BPG, 60.2% TS, 124 ORTG, .263 WS/48

PS - 21.8 PPG, 7.7 RPG, 12.2 APG, 1.7 SPG, .4 BPG, 60.2% TS, 129 ORTG, .265 WS/48

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1987-nba-finals-celtics-vs-lakers.html

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0n1-KIcoIzU[/youtube]

Via NY Times from 12/6/87

Even then he flirted with a reputation as the game's greatest player. Now 28 - the start of what many feel are a player's peak years - and coming off his best season, he has a legitimate claim to it.

What a season it was! Playing brilliantly from November to June, Johnson led Los Angeles to its fifth world championship, ran away with the N.B.A.'s Most Valuable Player Award, led the league in assists (his 977 were 129 more than the runner-up) and finished in the top 10 in scoring.

He was also named the best player in the championship series against the Boston Celtics, his hook shot with two seconds left winning the pivotal fourth game and his all-out play breaking open a close final contest. His totals for that last game were 16 points (12 in the third quarter when the Lakers rallied), 19 assists, 8 rebounds and 3 steals.

''Can the game be played any better than Magic played it in the third period. . .?'' asked Sports Illustrated.

Via Sports Illustrated from 6/29/87

This year the Lakers finally were Magic's team: Speed is power, power is speed. Slowly the cast had changed. Michael Cooper had emerged; A.C. Green and James Worthy had been added. Even Mychal Thompson, the most important pickup by either team this year, once was strong enough to play center yet was fast enough to play small forward at times. One had, at certain moments, a sense of watching a prototype of a different breed of athlete -- strong, fast, disciplined -- playing at a level of stunning intensity, with surprisingly few turnovers.

If the Knicks of the late '60s could be described as four guards and one forward (Willis Reed), then this was often a team of four forwards led by a point guard who could, in a very recent era, have played power forward. What made the series so special was the sharp contrast in the styles of Los Angeles and Boston and the knowledge that these two teams, with cameo appearances by Philadelphia and Houston, have essentially dominated the championships since Bird and Johnson entered the league in 1979. That and, of course, the fact that both teams have gradually been shaped to the styles and contours of their superstars, one white and one black.

The Celtics, this year's defending champions, play half-court basketball, and they play it better than any team in the league. That they had even made it to the finals was remarkable, given the death of Len Bias, the infirmities of Bill Walton and the fact that Kevin McHale and Robert Parish were both playing with injuries. But Boston finally lacked the bench mandatory for a tough playoff final and the speed to stay with L.A. in a running game. The Celtic front line, after all, was composed of three exceptional basketball players, while the first seven players for the Lakers seemed to be both exceptional basketball players and exceptional athletes.

One had to look no further than the contrast between McHale and Worthy to understand the classic matchup displayed in this series. If the Lakers controlled the tempo, it would mean that Worthy -- possibly the fastest big man going to the basket in the league -- would be a dominant player; if the Celtics controlled the pace, it meant they would be able to get the ball to McHale, surprisingly nimble and deft, uncommonly skilled at using his body and arms for maximum leverage. Each was an extension of the best of his team. For Worthy to be Worthy, Magic had to be Magic; for McHale to get the ball where he wanted it, Larry Bird and the Celtic offense had to move in proper mesh. If one was having a good game, the other probably was not.

Ballot #2 - 86 Bird

I can't help but tie magic and bird together here. They're 2 of the best on the fly decision makers the league has ever seen, and that's something you can't teach. I'll have to start looking closely at kidd to see where I'll rank him since i put him in that group as well.

Bird, similar to Duncan had a great regular season in 86, but took his game even further in the playoffs averaging nearly a triple double on 61.5% TS en route to the title.

RS - 25.8 PPG, 9.8 RPG, 6.8 APG, 2 SPG, .4 BPG, 58% TS, 114 ORTG, .244 WS/48

PS - 25.9 PPG, 9.3 RPG, 8.2 APG, 2.1 SPG, .6 BPG, 61.5% TS, 127 ORTG, .263 WS/48

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1986-nba-finals-rockets-vs-celtics.html

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3i9gt3UE0Q[/youtube]

Via Sports Illustrated from 3/3/86 -- to say bird was highly regarded by his peers is an understatement

"The question didn't seem relevant. But Bird came along with all the skills, all the things a basketball player has to do. I think he's the greatest." Chimes in Milwaukee Bucks coach Don Nelson, "He's the best player ever to play the game." And there comes this weighty word from Westwood. "I've always considered Oscar Robertson to be the best player in the game," says John Wooden. "Now I'm not so sure that Larry Bird isn't." Even Laker general manager Jerry West, who refuses to compare players from different eras, says of Bird, "He is as nearly perfect as you can get in almost every phase of basketball.”

Bird's play over the recent weeks has revealed an athlete at the height of his powers. When Kevin McHale went down with a heel injury, Bird just gritted his teeth, stooped and hefted McHale's load to his shoulders. In the Celtics' eight games since the All-Star break, Bird has averaged 30.8 points, 13.1 rebounds and 7.8 assists.

​​Inasmuch as the Celtics, with a best-in-the-league record of 43-11, have hardly missed a beat without McHale, Bird has to be the leading contender for his third straight MVP award, an accomplishment achieved in the NBA by only Russell and Chamberlain. Bird can probably count on Jack Ramsay's vote. After Bird struck for 47 points (including the game winner in overtime), 14 rebounds and 11 assists at Portland on Feb. 14, the Trail Blazer coach, a man not given to overstatement, called him "the greatest clutch player of all time."

"As an all-around player, there's never been anyone better," said Pacer coach George Irvine, the victim of a 30-11-12 Bird line Sunday night (his sixth triple double of the season). "A unique phenomenon," says San Antonio veteran Artis Gilmore of Bird.

[And yet…]

Bird, who has never been accused of false modesty, clings to the position (publicly at least) that Magic Johnson is the game's best active player. "He makes his teammates better to a greater degree than I do. It's his character, not just his abilities," says Bird.

Via NY Times, Bird’s clutch play en route to the title in 86

Bird's mood was different today. Not only did the Celtics sweep the Bucks in the Eastern Conference final and advance into the championship round a third straight year, but it was his 3-point shooting extravaganza that put them there.

He hit four of his five 3-point baskets in the final 4 minutes 6 seconds of the game and paved the way for the Celtics' 111-98 victory. Bird attempted six 3-point shots and made five of them, equaling his previous high, which he made earlier in the season against the Cleveland Cavaliers. Danny Ainge took five 3-point shots and made them all.

The Celtics, 11-1 in the playoffs, will await the outcome of the Western Conference final in which the Houston Rockets lead the Los Angeles Lakers, the defending champions, by a 3-1 margin.

Bird, who finished with 30 points, 8 rebounds, 5 assists and 2 steals, got 17 of his points in the final quarter. Fourteen of those came after Coach K. C. Jones shifted him into the backcourt after Dennis Johnson had fouled out of the game with 4:57 remaining and Boston ahead, 95-92. For the rest of the game, the Celtics played with a front line of Bill Walton, Robert Parish and Kevin McHale with Ainge as the ball-handler.

After Bird had made his third basket from 3-point range and the partisan capacity crowd of 11,052 began to realize that the Bucks had no chance to win, it began to chant, ''Give the ball to Larry.''

The Celtics obliged and Bird hit his last 3-pointer from the 24-foot range at the buzzer.

''I think I was unconscious today, especially on the one that Bill Walton pitched back to me,'' said Bird of the second of his four attempts. ''The ball was a little to my left, and I was little off balance.’’

From same SI article in 87 above (Magic ballot), describing why I can't help but link the 2 together

Slowly, inevitably, as they raised their teams to the highest professional level, as their teams became perennial challengers for the title, the connection between them, which had once been hyped and artificial, gradually became real. In a league in which expansion had ruined traditional rivalries, their rivalry and that of their teams remained genuine, and they reached the rare point where rivalry turns into respect and even affection. Bird led the campaign for Magic as MVP this year, and Magic talked during the playoffs about how playing against Bird raised his game, made him better, and how he thought that when Bird retired he, too, might retire, that the special challenge implicit in their careers and their mutual era would be over. It was the statement of an athlete thinking not so much of a given series as of the athletic history books.

Ballot #3 - 76 Dr. J

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qNqZVklGm0[/youtube]

I get it. It's a 5 minute clip, but I still think you can tell just how talented this guy was that year. An unstoppable offensive force leading his team to the championship. Nets also ranked 1st in defense that season.

For those who doubt the ABA, check out his per 100 #s in 76 vs. 80:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/ervinju01.html#per_poss::none

They’re nearly identical including efficiency. This is when he was given a bigger role in the offense after Cunningham came aboard as coach.

Clyde Frazier wrote:Ballot #1 - 87 Magic
Ballot #2 - 86 Bird
Ballot #3 - 76 Dr. J

--------------------

Ballot #1 - 87 Magic

Magic was a unique and special player. Took his game to another level that season, especially when relied on more as a primary offensive option. He led the lakers to league best 67-15 record and ultimately the championship against the celtics.

RS - 23.9 PPG, 6.3 RPG, 12.2 APG, 1.7 SPG, .5 BPG, 60.2% TS, 124 ORTG, .263 WS/48

PS - 21.8 PPG, 7.7 RPG, 12.2 APG, 1.7 SPG, .4 BPG, 60.2% TS, 129 ORTG, .265 WS/48

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1987-nba-finals-celtics-vs-lakers.html

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0n1-KIcoIzU[/youtube]

Via NY Times from 12/6/87

Even then he flirted with a reputation as the game's greatest player. Now 28 - the start of what many feel are a player's peak years - and coming off his best season, he has a legitimate claim to it.

What a season it was! Playing brilliantly from November to June, Johnson led Los Angeles to its fifth world championship, ran away with the N.B.A.'s Most Valuable Player Award, led the league in assists (his 977 were 129 more than the runner-up) and finished in the top 10 in scoring.

He was also named the best player in the championship series against the Boston Celtics, his hook shot with two seconds left winning the pivotal fourth game and his all-out play breaking open a close final contest. His totals for that last game were 16 points (12 in the third quarter when the Lakers rallied), 19 assists, 8 rebounds and 3 steals.

''Can the game be played any better than Magic played it in the third period. . .?'' asked Sports Illustrated.

Via Sports Illustrated from 6/29/87

This year the Lakers finally were Magic's team: Speed is power, power is speed. Slowly the cast had changed. Michael Cooper had emerged; A.C. Green and James Worthy had been added. Even Mychal Thompson, the most important pickup by either team this year, once was strong enough to play center yet was fast enough to play small forward at times. One had, at certain moments, a sense of watching a prototype of a different breed of athlete -- strong, fast, disciplined -- playing at a level of stunning intensity, with surprisingly few turnovers.

If the Knicks of the late '60s could be described as four guards and one forward (Willis Reed), then this was often a team of four forwards led by a point guard who could, in a very recent era, have played power forward. What made the series so special was the sharp contrast in the styles of Los Angeles and Boston and the knowledge that these two teams, with cameo appearances by Philadelphia and Houston, have essentially dominated the championships since Bird and Johnson entered the league in 1979. That and, of course, the fact that both teams have gradually been shaped to the styles and contours of their superstars, one white and one black.

The Celtics, this year's defending champions, play half-court basketball, and they play it better than any team in the league. That they had even made it to the finals was remarkable, given the death of Len Bias, the infirmities of Bill Walton and the fact that Kevin McHale and Robert Parish were both playing with injuries. But Boston finally lacked the bench mandatory for a tough playoff final and the speed to stay with L.A. in a running game. The Celtic front line, after all, was composed of three exceptional basketball players, while the first seven players for the Lakers seemed to be both exceptional basketball players and exceptional athletes.

One had to look no further than the contrast between McHale and Worthy to understand the classic matchup displayed in this series. If the Lakers controlled the tempo, it would mean that Worthy -- possibly the fastest big man going to the basket in the league -- would be a dominant player; if the Celtics controlled the pace, it meant they would be able to get the ball to McHale, surprisingly nimble and deft, uncommonly skilled at using his body and arms for maximum leverage. Each was an extension of the best of his team. For Worthy to be Worthy, Magic had to be Magic; for McHale to get the ball where he wanted it, Larry Bird and the Celtic offense had to move in proper mesh. If one was having a good game, the other probably was not.

Ballot #2 - 86 Bird

I can't help but tie magic and bird together here. They're 2 of the best on the fly decision makers the league has ever seen, and that's something you can't teach. I'll have to start looking closely at kidd to see where I'll rank him since i put him in that group as well.

Bird, similar to Duncan had a great regular season in 86, but took his game even further in the playoffs averaging nearly a triple double on 61.5% TS en route to the title.

RS - 25.8 PPG, 9.8 RPG, 6.8 APG, 2 SPG, .4 BPG, 58% TS, 114 ORTG, .244 WS/48

PS - 25.9 PPG, 9.3 RPG, 8.2 APG, 2.1 SPG, .6 BPG, 61.5% TS, 127 ORTG, .263 WS/48

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1986-nba-finals-rockets-vs-celtics.html

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3i9gt3UE0Q[/youtube]

Via Sports Illustrated from 3/3/86 -- to say bird was highly regarded by his peers is an understatement

"The question didn't seem relevant. But Bird came along with all the skills, all the things a basketball player has to do. I think he's the greatest." Chimes in Milwaukee Bucks coach Don Nelson, "He's the best player ever to play the game." And there comes this weighty word from Westwood. "I've always considered Oscar Robertson to be the best player in the game," says John Wooden. "Now I'm not so sure that Larry Bird isn't." Even Laker general manager Jerry West, who refuses to compare players from different eras, says of Bird, "He is as nearly perfect as you can get in almost every phase of basketball.”

Bird's play over the recent weeks has revealed an athlete at the height of his powers. When Kevin McHale went down with a heel injury, Bird just gritted his teeth, stooped and hefted McHale's load to his shoulders. In the Celtics' eight games since the All-Star break, Bird has averaged 30.8 points, 13.1 rebounds and 7.8 assists.

​​Inasmuch as the Celtics, with a best-in-the-league record of 43-11, have hardly missed a beat without McHale, Bird has to be the leading contender for his third straight MVP award, an accomplishment achieved in the NBA by only Russell and Chamberlain. Bird can probably count on Jack Ramsay's vote. After Bird struck for 47 points (including the game winner in overtime), 14 rebounds and 11 assists at Portland on Feb. 14, the Trail Blazer coach, a man not given to overstatement, called him "the greatest clutch player of all time."

"As an all-around player, there's never been anyone better," said Pacer coach George Irvine, the victim of a 30-11-12 Bird line Sunday night (his sixth triple double of the season). "A unique phenomenon," says San Antonio veteran Artis Gilmore of Bird.

[And yet…]

Bird, who has never been accused of false modesty, clings to the position (publicly at least) that Magic Johnson is the game's best active player. "He makes his teammates better to a greater degree than I do. It's his character, not just his abilities," says Bird.

Via NY Times, Bird’s clutch play en route to the title in 86

Bird's mood was different today. Not only did the Celtics sweep the Bucks in the Eastern Conference final and advance into the championship round a third straight year, but it was his 3-point shooting extravaganza that put them there.

He hit four of his five 3-point baskets in the final 4 minutes 6 seconds of the game and paved the way for the Celtics' 111-98 victory. Bird attempted six 3-point shots and made five of them, equaling his previous high, which he made earlier in the season against the Cleveland Cavaliers. Danny Ainge took five 3-point shots and made them all.

The Celtics, 11-1 in the playoffs, will await the outcome of the Western Conference final in which the Houston Rockets lead the Los Angeles Lakers, the defending champions, by a 3-1 margin.

Bird, who finished with 30 points, 8 rebounds, 5 assists and 2 steals, got 17 of his points in the final quarter. Fourteen of those came after Coach K. C. Jones shifted him into the backcourt after Dennis Johnson had fouled out of the game with 4:57 remaining and Boston ahead, 95-92. For the rest of the game, the Celtics played with a front line of Bill Walton, Robert Parish and Kevin McHale with Ainge as the ball-handler.

After Bird had made his third basket from 3-point range and the partisan capacity crowd of 11,052 began to realize that the Bucks had no chance to win, it began to chant, ''Give the ball to Larry.''

The Celtics obliged and Bird hit his last 3-pointer from the 24-foot range at the buzzer.

''I think I was unconscious today, especially on the one that Bill Walton pitched back to me,'' said Bird of the second of his four attempts. ''The ball was a little to my left, and I was little off balance.’’

From same SI article in 87 above (Magic ballot), describing why I can't help but link the 2 together

Slowly, inevitably, as they raised their teams to the highest professional level, as their teams became perennial challengers for the title, the connection between them, which had once been hyped and artificial, gradually became real. In a league in which expansion had ruined traditional rivalries, their rivalry and that of their teams remained genuine, and they reached the rare point where rivalry turns into respect and even affection. Bird led the campaign for Magic as MVP this year, and Magic talked during the playoffs about how playing against Bird raised his game, made him better, and how he thought that when Bird retired he, too, might retire, that the special challenge implicit in their careers and their mutual era would be over. It was the statement of an athlete thinking not so much of a given series as of the athletic history books.

Ballot #3 - 76 Dr. J

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qNqZVklGm0[/youtube]

I get it. It's a 5 minute clip, but I still think you can tell just how talented this guy was that year. An unstoppable offensive force leading his team to the championship. Nets also ranked 1st in defense that season.

For those who doubt the ABA, check out his per 100 #s in 76 vs. 80:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/ervinju01.html#per_poss::none

They’re nearly identical including efficiency. This is when he was given a bigger role in the offense after Cunningham came aboard as coach.

Dr. J's plays at 2:00 and 2:25 are so good I can't get any further in the video.

Joao Saraiva wrote:

E-Balla wrote:

mischievous wrote:Well i uses to have it KG>Wade>Drob in peaks but i'm not sure that is consistent? Is there a way for that to be fair you think? I'm starting to think if i have KG>Wade, then i must have Drob over him too.

Well why are you not sure if it is consistent. Personally I have Wade over both (again as Joao mentioned peak/prime Wade's postseason offense is Jordan-esque) but KG IMO has way less questions regarding his offensive performances. KG was the first option for the 08 Celtics championship team (led in USG and PPG), and from 01-04 averaged 24.4 ppg, 5.0 apg, and 3.6 topg on 52.4 TS% (slightly above average for the early 2000s) with a 104 ORTG (again average level). He had his failures scoring the ball which takes him down a peg IMO but he never struggled to be a high level playmaker in the postseason kind of similar to Bird when he was at SF (23.6 AST% in regular season from 01-04 and 23.3 in the postseason). KG's production "drop" can be expected as he usually increased his usage and raw production (from 01-04 he only averaged 22.6 ppg on 54.3 TS% in the regular season) and his efficiency drops weren't bad considering he was playing better defenses.

Robinson OTOH saw both his efficiency and volume drop to levels below KG while rarely playing any good defensive teams in the postseason.

I think that's a good reply, and by that I can see the argument for KG>Wade>Robinson.

For me it doesn't work, since I believe Wade is in another tier on offense.

Robinson is definitely the player I have the most issues with playoff drops. His regular seasons have something special, some GOAT level on them. But then in the playoffs... the drop is just tremendous.

With Karl Malone I have some issues. Specially about his ts%. But at least his raw production was there, and sometimes even increased. While other all time greats go arround 60%ts even several times in the post-season Malone usually drops it a lot, even if not playing bad he wasn't playing as great as the other ATG.

I would only say here that Robinson faced some good defenses and defenders. When you face peak Hakeem you know he's gonna bring you trouble.

It's really difficult to make such rankings, because the gaps are small and we value diferent things.

Robinson did play good defensive teams and good defenders but as I mentioned before he didn't do well against them at all. His scoring looked worse than someone like Jimmy Butler who isn't seen as elite has been against similar postseason defenses.

From 93-96 he played 8 series. He played good defenses 3 times (Portland in 93, Utah in 94 and 96). Outside of that he also played 2 ATG Cs (Hakeem and Mutombo in 95) and here's how he performed:

vs Portland 93 (4th ranked defense): 19.3 ppg, 2.3 orpg, 4.8 apg, 2.0 topg, 48.7 TS%, 107 ORTG. This 4 game series included a 6/20 performance and a 4/11 performance in games 1 and 2.

vs Utah 94 (7th ranked defense): 20 ppg, 3.3 orpg, 3.5 apg, 2.3 topg, 47.1 TS%, 104 ORTG. Again they lost in 4. This time lost games 2 and 3 (in a best to 3) with Robinson shooting 10-35 for 28 points in those games combined.

vs Denver 95 (with Deke): 19 ppg, 1.7 orpg, 3.3 apg, 2.0 topg, 49.3 TS%, 105 ORTG. They swept but he did struggle against Deke and they won mostly due to the offense which was flourishing despite bad performances from Robinson.

vs Houston 95 (with Hakeem) has been a topic of conversation for a minute now so I won't list the numbers totally (23.8 ppg for DR). I'd just like to mention again that he shot under 40% 3 games in this series and had under a 90 ORTG in all 3 games.

vs Utah 96 (8th ranked defense): 19.3 ppg, 3.7 orpg, 2.0 apg, 2.3 topg, 52.6 TS%, 107 ORTG. Looks better than the rest on paper but he had under a 50 TS% in 4 games and the other 2 games were blowout losses (73 TS% in a game 1 20 point loss and 74 TS% in only 24 minutes of a game 4 15 point loss). Honestly outside of games 1 and 2 he was flat out bad.

Of 5 series that's 2 over 50 TS%, 2 over 20 ppg (with one of those exactly at 20.0 ppg), and not a single 110+ ORTG (which IMO is when you get into high efficiency territory).

In the playoffs I'd much rather have Dwight Howard or Yao if I needed a first option.

Mining for posts, here's PTB fan with an in depth news/clippings type review of Walton:

PTB Fan wrote:Before I start, I want to give out major props to TheRegulat8or for his Walton and Dr J posts. Here's mine..

"The Portland Trail Blazers, formally announced the firing of Lenny Wilkens yesterday naming Jack Ramsey to succeed him as a coach of the National Basketball Association team. Ramsey, fired by Buffalo after guiding the Braves into the Eastern semi-conference finals, is the fourth coach of the Blazers, who joined in the 1970. Ramsey said, "I think this the best coaching opportunity in professional basketball, and I took the position here for that reason."

"I have great regard for the talent of this team" Ramsey said. "It is like an iceberg. What you see isn't the mass that is really there. Sure Bill Walton has to be healthy and play almost a full season if we are to achieve great success.

"I want a team that can run, a team that can make the transition from offense to defense and be aggressive when it gets to defense. Bill Walton is a great big man and he will give us up front quality. I am looking forward to his playing a major part of the schedule."

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=MfEiAAAAIBAJ&sjid=58sFAAAAIBAJ&pg=938,397583&dq=bill+walton&hl=en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Depend on the health of center Bill Walton, this could be the turnaround season for the Portland Trail Blazers in the National Basketball Association. So far, Walton is healthy -- the healthiest he's ever been since he's turned pro -- and Portland is in a high state of optimism.

"Our future has to be now" says Ramsey, a successful veteran of the NBA wars who left Buffalo after three straight playoff seasons after falling out with the Braves front office. Ramsey admits Walton is the key to a turnaround. "I want at least 60 games out of Bill this season" he said. "If we get that, we will be in good shape."

Walton, the former UCLA All-American, can be awesome when healthy. But he was an injury prone in his first two pro seasons, getting in the equivalent of only one season's play over two years. For the first time, he came to training camp with no injuries:

"Walton is such a fine talent, so coachable, and unselfish." said Ramsey. "He does everything well. I like the spirit on this club. These players want to win. You can see it in practice and we saw it in exhibition games."

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=1EFPAAAAIBAJ&sjid=E48DAAAAIBAJ&pg=3853,1002769&dq=bill+walton&hl=en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"His third season's been a charm, so far, for big Bill Walton of the Portland Trail Blazers. The sometimes controversial redheaded is off to his best National Basketball Association start ever, and the reason is simple.

For the first time in his pro career, Walton's completely healthy. "I don't think about the injuries. I try to keep up in the best physical condition that I can prevent injuries, but I don't think about them" Walton says.[/b]

But he's had a bad reason to think a lot. He had nine broken bones of one kind or another in his first two NBA seasons. Coach Jack Ramsey wanted the 6-11 center, who was drafted No.1 from the UCLA in 1974, to come to camp a bit lighter this season. And he did -- about 10 pounds.

Ramsey thinks with less weight, there's less chances of an injury from pressure on the legs and knees. The Blazers have something of a new attitude under Ramsey, more of a team concept. But Walton says his attitude are about the same ever.

"I don't think I've changed. I have the same values and the same interests." says Walton, who turned 24 last week. Still bearded, he says he's got long hair cut for comfort, nothing else. The coach has nothing but praise for Walton.

"He is a blend of all the skills of the game" Ramsey says. "He'll do whatever is necessary to win, and that's all he's concerned about.

"I think he could be the most valuable player in pro basketball." But Walton, who has been a leading scorer for Portland and tops the league in rebounds so far in this season, says what counts in the end is the final tally on the scoreboard.

"I go by wins and loses and not by the boxscore. Boxscores are extremely misleading." Walton says. And he's glad to be mended. "It is pleasant to go to practices this season and be able to practice." [/i]

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=7PtXAAAAIBAJ&sjid=3fYDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5230,541102&dq=bill+walton&hl=en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"The red ponytail is gone and so is the bandanna. So, too, are the aches and pains, the injuries that dogged Bill Walton through his first two years as a pro. "I'm healthy, that's the biggest difference" said Walton, who is playing the way Portland folks had hoped when they drafted him at No.1 in 1974 out of UCLA.

The 6-foot-11, 225 pounded is in great shape and is playing nearly 40 minutes a game. He still wears bandages on his knees, and after games he soaks his chronically sore feet in a tray of ice. But to have gone through seven weeks of the season with no injuries is a new experience, one he is enjoying.

"This is the most I've played in the NBA in one strach" Walton said following a 114-96 victory over the New York Knicks Tuesday night in which he contributed with 16 points, 15 rebounds and 8 blocked shots.

"Consistency, that's the most important thing," he said. "I've been able to develop all the areas of my game. When you play two weeks and then get hurt and sit out two weeks, you can't do that."

Ramsey who has nothing but praise for Walton, who leads the league in rebounds and blocked shots and is Portland's leading scorer at 21.1 points a game. "Bill's been just super" Ramsey said. "He's a very team first oriented guy. He's been working his tail off to help this team. He has great rapport with his teammates."

Walton, 24, is the captain of the Blazers. a position which he was voted to by other players. "It was nice of the guys to select me captain" he said with a smile. "but this team doesn't really need a captain to get them going. They know what to do, how to win games. But it was nice."

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=IahfAAAAIBAJ&sjid=XzIMAAAAIBAJ&pg=3268,2888158&dq=bill+walton&hl=en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Center Bill Walton of the Portland Trail Blazers will not play Sunday in the National Basketball Association All-Star Game in Milwaukee because of an inflamed Achilles tendon. He will be replaced by Don Buse of the Indiana Pacers.

Walton, who leads the NBA in rebounds and blocked shots, hasn't played in two weeks because of the injury. He said there has been noticeable improvement in the injury in the past three days."

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=NBFKAAAAIBAJ&sjid=yB4NAAAAIBAJ&pg=2936,1329814&dq=bill+walton&hl=en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"A jubilant coach Jack Ramsey called it the return "of the old Portland Trail Blazers" and the New Orleans Jazz felt the sting, losing 131-104 in a National Basketball Association game here Tuesday night.

The win broke a three-game Portland losing streak and put the Blazers back within 2 and half games within the leading Los Angeles in the Pacific Division. Center Bill Walton made his return to the Portland lineup after missing five games because of an ankle sprain. He played only 17 minutes, but tallied 12 points, eight rebounds, four assists and four blocked shots.

"We ran well" said Portland forward Maurice Lucas who scored 18 of his 20 points as the Blazers built 66-44 lead. "It makes so much difference with Bill (Walton) back. Also I can do many more things with him there."

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=124tAAAAIBAJ&sjid=wokFAAAAIBAJ&pg=1270,5776218&dq=bill+walton&hl=en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


For the season, Bill Walton averaged 18.6 points, 14.4 boards, 3.8 assists and 3.2 blocks on 52.8% field goal percentage, 69.7% free throw percentage and 56.3% true shooting percentage in 34.8 minutes per game. He led the league in rebounds, blocked shots and defensive rebound percentage while ranking top 5 in other advanced and basic stats (#2 in block %, #3 in total rebound %, #3 in win share per 48, #8 in effective field goal %, #2 in defensive rating).

Portland posted a 49-33 record in which he was arguably the main contributor. He finished second in the MVP voting, and for his excellence in the RS, he was awarded with a All-NBA Second selection ( only to the eventual MVP, Kareem) and All-NBA First Defense Team selection as well.


In the postseason, Walton averaged 18.2 points, 15.2 rebounds, 5.5 assists and 3.4 blocks on 50.7% field goal percent, 68.4% free throw percent and 52.7% true shooting percent in 39.7 minutes per game. He ranked fourth in rebounding, eight in assists and second in blocks in the playoffs. Walton managed to top all in four advanced stats (defensive reb %, DWS, Drtg and block %) and to lead all in total boards, blocks and assists in the same run.


In the first round against the Chicago Bulls, he posted averages of 17.3 points and 12.3 rebounds, as he had game logs of 11/9, 24/17 and 17/11 in those three games. Then came the series against the Los Angeles Lakers, who had the league MVP Kareem that was coming off a dominant series versus the Warriors.

"They were both All-Americans at UCLA and now the match up will be Kareem Abdul-Jabbar against Bill Walton as the Los Angeles Lakers battle the Portland Trail Blazers in the National Basketball Association semifinals.

The best of seven series starts Friday night at the Forum, home of the Lakers and where they've 41-4 record this season. The latest was a 97-84 triumph Wednesday night over the Golden State Warriors, who had beaten the three times in Oakland but lost all four playoff games at the Forum.

Abdul-Jabbar, who was Lew Alcindor when he played at UCLA, stands 7-foot-2 which gives him a three inch height advantage over Walton, who followed him at UCLA. "He's a good center and they're a good team" said Abdul-Jabbar, who spearheaded the Laker attack in the triumphant quarter-finals. He scored 40 or more points and 36 in the last one.

"It's going to be a tough series. There's no doubt that the home court is an advantage, at least it has been for us this year. But I've seen things turn around quickly."

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=_UQiAAAAIBAJ&sjid=YKwFAAAAIBAJ&pg=1287,689634&dq=bill+walton+vs+lakers&hl=en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Against LA, he averaged 19.3 points, 14.8 rebounds, 5.8 assists and 2.3 blocks on 50.7% field goal percentage and 51.7% true shooting percentage in a series where he was a major factor to Portland's surprising series sweep. He did a solid job defensively on Kareem (holding him to 10 points below the average from the previous series with a decent help from his teammates), matched him in other areas and made his impact in Portland's wins.


In the Finals against the 76ers, Walton led his team from 0-2 to win the next straight 4 games with him dominating. For the series, Walton averaged 18.7 points, 19 rebounds, 5.2 assists and 3.7 blocks on 54.5% field goal percent and 57.9% true shooting percent en route to a title and Finals MVP. Had there been a Defensive Player Of The Year award, he'd have most likely won that award as well.

"Portland became National Basketball Association champions Sunday, mostly because Coach Gene of Philadelphia 76ers could not find any way to stop Bill Walton of the Portland Trail Blazers. Shue tried four different men on Walton in Sunday's sixth game of the championship final but none could handle him.

Caldwell Jones, Darryl Dawkins, Harvey Catchings and George McGinis all tried, but failed as Portland posted a 109-107 victory to overcome the multi-talented 76ers 4-2 in the best of seven series.

"Bill Walton has been our lead all the way" said Portland coach Jack Ramsey. "He is our team captain in every sense of the word. There is no better player, no more co-operative player, no better person than Bill."

Shue said: "Bill Walton is the best player for a big man who has ever played the game of basketball. We couldn't contain him. He dominated the middle and that threw us out of our game." Walton, who scored and rebounded in double figures in every game of the series, had 20 points, 23 rebounds, seven assists and eight blocked shots in the series finale.

He was named Most Valuable Player in the series for the way he anchored Portland's offense and defense."

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=fUpVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=YT4NAAAAIBAJ&pg=3261,1627237&dq=bill+walton&hl=en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ballot 1: 87' Magic Johnson. Appears like his best regular season and playoffs in the same year thus his peak. Regular season rounded off numbers: 24/6/12 60.2 ts% 27 PER 3.8 TOV. As you can see he was excellent and efficient scorer despite not being a great shooter, all time great playmaker, more or less maintained his production in the playoffs en route to a title, 22/8/12 60.7 ts% 26.2 PER 2.8 TOV, that's an incredible assist/turnover ratio. This title is extremely impressive, because he put up the best numbers of his career ,and was the clear cut far and away best player, Kareem was clearly in decline at this point and 39 years old, still productive but Magic took them there. Not sure this level of both high volume efficient scoring, and high volume playmaking has been seen over a full regular season plus playoffs outside of maybe 08 CP3.

Ballot 2: Larry Legend 86/87. Seems you can pick either one of these years although 86 is the more popular one probably because he won the title. All around great player, scored on efficient volume ultra elite playmaking from the forward spot, very crafty, great rebounder for his size and position(small forward these years). In either season, was a 25-28 ppg 9-10 rpg, 7-8 apg ts% ranged from 58-61 % generally, in both regular season and playoffs.

Ballot 3: 62 Bill Russell. Don't really know enough to say confidently that this is his peak, seem to be his best scoring season in both regular season, and the playoffs while his all time great defense and rebounding is still present.

I like Russell over Robinson because he shown he can be the best player and best defender on a title team, plus his offense doesn't plummet like Drob's in the playoffs. I like Bird and Magic over Drob because they were legit 1st option offensive anchors on all time great title teams. I have a feeling Drob's offense drops too much in the postseason for him to really be an offensive title anchor like a Duncan, Hakeem etc. His defense was still there sure, but i think he needs, someone playing next to him who is a more capable offensive player like we seen with Duncan in 99.

Honorable mentions and soon to be in my ballots: Drob, Dwyane Wade, Dr J, Oscar Robertson.

Legitimate criticism of Dr. J's inclusion at this time, per fatal9 and thebottomline:

fatal9 wrote:

thebottomline wrote:I totally get that Dr. J had a dominant playoff run of 13 games, 6 of which were against an all-time great defender, on his way to a championship.

But from strictly a value/skillset standpoint I'm having a hard time seeing Dr. J's inclusion with the "sacreds" (whose peaks, I would generally agree, are a step above the rest). Based on the discussion so far it seems like a given that he'll be voted #13...but why, exactly? To me he seems closer to the next group of guys (Robinson, Wade, Kobe, etc.) than he does to the top 12 assuming Walton takes this one... Offensively, a step or two down from guys like Wade, Kobe, McGrady; defensively it's harder to say but although I do think Dr. J was a disruptive defensive player I don't see his defense clearly pushing him over the Wade/Kobe group and into the top 12 group. Personally I wonder if I'd even have him top 15, again, from purely a value/skillset/impact perspective which is how I'm evaluating these players' peaks for my own personal list.

This is kind of my opinion too.

Watched some classic Dr. J games again recently, and assessment is pretty much same as before. An amazingly dynamic full-court offensive player. His all around offensive skills have probably become underrated with time and his overall game fits in really well in a team setting. However, you could argue Doc is flawed offensively in two ways. His jumpshot wasn't pure/range wasn't that great. But I don't really see this as a flaw (the not having range on his shot) because with the way he played, he didn't need to be taking threes. His efficiency was good, he had a good midrange game (bankshot from midrange was money!), constantly working for position around the basket and was in super aggressive attack mode to the basket drawing fouls or finishing at the rim (scoring wise sounds a little bit like LeBron this year, who we credited for not taking as many long jumpers, doesn't it?). The one flaw that I do see in his offensive game where I question whether he truly belongs over the other elite wings (KB, T-Mac, Wade) is his ball handling. I feel like this is a legitimate flaw. In the full court it was fine, but in the half court he just didn't appear to be a very versatile ball handler. Now again, you can argue this is maybe sort of a good thing because Dr. J was a little bit of an anti-ball-stopper to me...he got the ball and attacked right away. But then again, lack of handles also IMO made him a less dangerous scorer than the other guys when you took away his first move. His playmaking was also below the rest of these guys for this reason (though Doc is actually an underrated passer imo). Not quite seeing his iso-scoring game on the level of Kobe or '09 Wade, and this is a legitimate criticism because after watching many of Doc's playoff games from '77-'82, there were a lot of times when the Sixers really could have used him to generate more offense for himself. I felt like this was something I saw consistently in his NBA playoff career, not quite the go to scoring as the other wings when the game really slowed down and it came down to his skills.

But that's not his peak, '76 is according to this thread, which I agree with but I don't think '76 version of Doc possessed more skills than '80 or '81 version of Doc so my point is that the '76 version comes with the same flaws. The '76 version was just even more physically dominant (who was also playing in a league that suited his strengths really well). We recognize these flaws when comparing LeBron with Dr. J (which is why he was ranked over him) but seem to forget them in comparison to the other guys in the next tier.

Defensively, a better team defender than man defender for sure. But very good on that end, and especially amazing at converting defense into easy baskets. He's like the SF version of a 80s Hakeem defensively, questionable man defense because susceptible to fakes/tricks/poor judgement, sometimes committed too many careless gambles, but raw athleticism, good reaction and timing still allowed him to have a tremendous impact defensively. This is something I've heard even Doc admit in his ABA interviews (that his man defense needs to get better).

So while I see Dr. J around this area peak-wise, I just think there's a bit more discussion about his peak and the next group of guards (Oscar, West, Kobe, T-Mac, Wade). His combination of numbers, team performance and playoff performance probably eclipses all of them, but he did play when the league was split in two (and ABA style really really suited his strengths....it's not so much I think ABA players sucked or didn't play defense, it's that stylistically I see it as a perfect setting for his game to flourish and that needs to be considered). His playoffs though probably swing the balance in his favor but based on the type of things you could expect from him nightly, I don't see him above those guys. Regardless, what an amazing player to watch, he draws anticipation almost every time he touches the ball.