Who was stronger - Wilt or Artis?

[70sFan]

Who was stronger at their peak - Artis or Wilt? These two players are in conversation for strongest player ever.

Interesting note, both look huge even after their NBA careers:




Wilt peaked in NBA in terms of weight as around 320 lbs. I don't have numbers for Artis, but he looks close to 300 lbs in early 80s.

[turk3d]

I don't know how strong Gilmore was, but Wilt, no contest to answer the question.

[The-Power]

I don't know how strong Gilmore was, but Wilt, no contest.

This statement doesn't make any sense at all.

[turk3d]

I don't know how strong Gilmore was, but Wilt, no contest.

This statement doesn't make any sense at all.

Wilt to answer your question. Artis was rather skinny and I don't believe weighed anywhere near what Wilt weighed (just 240 according to basketball-reference.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gilmoar01.html

[Tinseltown]

I don't know how strong Gilmore was, but Wilt, no contest.

This statement doesn't make any sense at all.

Wilt to answer your question. Artis was rather skinny and I don't believe weighed anywhere near what Wilt weighed (just 240 according to basketball-reference.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gilmoar01.html

You're saying Artis was the skinny one? Look at Wilt's legs, they're like twigs. Wilt would get snapped trying to play against someone who works on their lower body.

[70sFan]

I don't know how strong Gilmore was, but Wilt, no contest.

This statement doesn't make any sense at all.

Wilt to answer your question. Artis was rather skinny and I don't believe weighed anywhere near what Wilt weighed (just 240 according to basketball-reference.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gilmoar01.html

Artis weighed 240 lbs in college. He was much bigger in ABA let alone in NBA. You are talking about one of the biggest players ever. His lower body is arguable bigger than Shaq's. Just look at this legs:


Here he isn't even at his biggest. I can show you some size comparison between him and other big guys.

Artis and Kareem (around the same heigh, Kareem is over 250 lbs here):



Look how muscular and strong he looks:



He's not as ripped as Wallace or Howard, but his physique impress me more cause he didn't use roids (or doesn't look like he did).

Here you can see him against Wes Unseld. Short center, but with GOAT lower body. Praised for his strenght and defensive ability. Gilmore make him look like a child:



I have a Bullets vs Bulls first quarter from 1977 (if I remeber correctly) and Gilmore shows some great signs of his strenght. Wes was hopeless against him in the post (but held his own on the boards).


I don't know how big Gilmore was at his biggest, but he's clearly on the same tier with Wilt in terms of size. Wilt has bigger upper body, Artis bigger lower body (like Shaq but lighter, without fat).

[turk3d]

This statement doesn't make any sense at all.

Wilt to answer your question. Artis was rather skinny and I don't believe weighed anywhere near what Wilt weighed (just 240 according to basketball-reference.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gilmoar01.html

You're saying Artis was the skinny one? Look at Wilt's legs, they're like twigs. Wilt would get snapped trying to play against someone who works on their lower body.

Wilt (also according to basketball-reference) is listed @ 275 lbs (compared to Artis 240). If you want to suggest that those numbers were their college weights, Wilt outweighed him by about 35 lbs which seems about right to me. Once considered by many as the strongest man on earth. If I remember correctly, one of Gilmore's criticism was that he was too "soft' if I remember correctly.

If I'm not mistaken, it wasn't until after he went to the NBA (older and heavier) that he seemed to get more physical. Actually was more of a "finesse" player imo earlier in his career. Here's several Videos/Articles about how strong Wilt was including Arnols Swartzenneger who starred in a movie that he made with Wilt (the Original Conan the Barbarian).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrpmGuCmGnc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STXbuXGPdoY

http://marsreel.co/unbelievable-strength-wilt-chamberlain/40533

[D.Brasco]

You can't really judge strength by looking at pictures but by all accounts Wilt was stronger.

They played in very roughly the same era but Wilt has like 10x as many stories detailing his strengths and feats.

Gimore is known for his strengths but among the players who played against both of them, I believe they have still referred to Wilt as the strongest guy they played against.

[70sFan]

You can't really judge strength by looking at pictures but by all accounts Wilt was stronger.

They played in very roughly the same era but Wilt has like 10x as many stories detailing his strengths and feats.

Gimore is known for his strengths but among the players who played against both of them, I believe they have still referred to Wilt as the strongest guy they played against.

I don't judge their strenght by looking at photos. I posted them because some posters here thinks Gilmore was skinny dude, which is not true.

I agree that Wilt has more stories about his strenght and it's more legendary. Not that he's not stronger, but I think him being GOAT candidate helps him in this comparison. Gilmore is quiet guy and media never cares about him.

About players opinion, players who played both with Wilt and Gilmore faced mostly Lakers Wilt (as big and strong as at his peak, maybe even more) and ABA Artis, who was skinner than NBA version of himself. It's like Parish opinion about rookie Shaq and Gilmore - not really fair comparison.

[SkyHookFTW]

Even Gilmore said Wilt was stronger.

[SkyHookFTW]

This statement doesn't make any sense at all.

Wilt to answer your question. Artis was rather skinny and I don't believe weighed anywhere near what Wilt weighed (just 240 according to basketball-reference.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gilmoar01.html

You're saying Artis was the skinny one? Look at Wilt's legs, they're like twigs. Wilt would get snapped trying to play against someone who works on their lower body.

One of these days, people will understand that skinny does not mean weak. People that win NCAA high jump championships, throw the javelin, shot put, triple jump, and run the 100, 200, and 400, and are asked by the USOC to compete in the decathlon don't have a weak lower body.

[70sFan]

Even Gilmore said Wilt was stronger.

When did he say that? I'd like to hear this statement (not that I don't believe you, I'm just curious).

[turk3d]

I remember way back some sportswriter wrote an article about Wilt claiming that he was the "strongest man in the world" (not just the NBA). Perhaps he meant the "civilized" world, lol. I'm sure there was some Serbian, Watusi, Aborigine who was stronger, just that no one knew about him.

I don't know about strength, but I do know that Gilmore was pretty light (relative for a 7'2 guy) and if you don't like the word "skinny" how about lean then? No one matched Wilt's strength in those days. I think that the best comparison would be prime Shaq and then I'm not even sure if he'd win a strength match. Wilt's physical strength was uncanny.

[Doctor MJ]

So, all of this stuff is just conjecture since basketball isn't really a strength contest.

In general when I think of strength GOATs, I tend to divide it up 2 ways:

In terms of "basketball strength", which is your ability to bully those around legally, I tend to put Shaq at #1. The reality is that effectively using your weight against opponents is indistinguishable from strength in basketball, and no one was a bully like Shaq. Ever.

In terms of "weight room strength", I tend to put Wilt at #1. So this is just which guy do I think is likely to be off the charts when we put him through all sorts of different diagnostics, and here Wilt being the most freakishly talented human body possibly in human history makes it hard to pick anyone else.

How about Gilmore? Maybe I'd put it like this: I don't think Gilmore was as weight room strong as Wilt, but he might have been more basketball strong in terms of raw physical capability. But then, Gilmore had even more issues than Wilt when it came to being a bully. Gilmore was a phenomenal player who deserves his place in the hall, but he was never the bull in a china shop that you'd expect from someone who was a "basketball strong" GOAT contender.

[turk3d]

+ 1. Actually Gilmore seemed to be one of the "nice guys" in the league. Reminds me a bit of David Robinson. Quiet but effective but never the "beast" that Wilt was during his time. And I agree that Gilmore was in fact a great player, but not GOAT level imo.

[SkyHookFTW]

Even Gilmore said Wilt was stronger.

When did he say that? I'd like to hear this statement (not that I don't believe you, I'm just curious).

He said this in an interview on a sports station. It was on YouTube at one time, and probably still is, buried in the nether regions of cyberspace. I can't find it though, I hope it was not removed.

[70sFan]

BTW, I'd like to see more footage Wilt and Gilmore playing against some of the strongest player in the league during that time. Against guys like Thurmond, Embry, Lanier, Unseld, Moses, Dawkins, Eaton.

Last month I watched Spurs vs Sixers game from 1984 season. Moses couldn't overpower Artis and Malone is one of the strongest player ever.

[MacGill]

So, all of this stuff is just conjecture since basketball isn't really a strength contest.

In general when I think of strength GOATs, I tend to divide it up 2 ways:

In terms of "basketball strength",

In terms of "weight room strength",

Quoting Doc here as this is just as I see it. However, I always see weight strength get heavily overrated in terms of trying to prove basketball strength more than in anything else.

For instance, I know Doc is 6'9 and I am just shy of 6 feet tall. Now I'll use my prime b-ball stats: 205lbs with a strong lower base who was able to bench press 385lbs for one rep.

Now I don't know Doc's prime weight but given his size I would assume he would have a good 30-40 pounds on me and possibly more based on his height alone. But let's pretend Doc was closer to my size, like Wilt & Artis and note that if Doc is an athlete and playing in the nba, we can also assume that he may be a tad...and just a tad,stronger than say a Napoleon Dynamite type, and especially when compared to your average to non-athlete.

I am not sure how much Doc could bench, squat or leg press etc, but let's just say for his size and weight he is right in line with historical data taken, so he is average here. Let's use 215lbs for this example and assume that in every weight strength feat, I am superior to Doc.

Basketball is a game largely based on 'position' which helps gain you the advantage over your opponent. Action then reaction. So for this example, a shot goes up and rebounds off the rim on my weak-side where Doc is currently planted. He grabs the rebound and because of the position I went at him to challenge for the board we make contact which sends me off balance based off of normal physics (reactive force) and nothing more. Now I am not sure what the weight breaking point would be where when I made contact with Doc and then he goes flying with the ball, however that is the force in physics as well and another question. Like how much additional horsepower does it take to overcome a car that's gained a couple of tenths head start on you in the quarter-mile when both cars already have a decent amount of power and torque to run it quickly?

But, going off of we are close in size but me being much stronger in weight strength, how could this happen? LOL, and please do not answer this but the point I am making here is that there is so much more to it than just raw weight training strength or ability. So you simply just can't go off of what others would say about a said athlete unless there was a way to actually measure say 'post position strength' or 'try to move me out of the way without fouling me strength' and add this to the combine.

Even at 6'9, I could box out Doc and prevent him from getting the rebound and he could do the same to me. Mind you at 6'9, he could do it easier than me based off his length but that isn't going to tell us who is stronger. And that is because the game of basketball doesn't require you to be a strength freak like say the NFL does. And it's the same reason why the NFL doesn't need their O. Lineman to be able to play running-back.

Obtaining position is so key, and based on a more inside out game, was much more of a factor in how the game was played back in Wilt/Artis' day, so there is that sense of this mattering more because of no 3 point line, less dunking etc. When someone is planted it is very hard to move that person out of position without either fouling them or using an insane amount of your own energy. And by energy, I would have to say, more than what the other person could exhume. The problem is, it is very rare to find two people of similar height and size where there is such a discrepancy that it becomes that obvious (A 200bhp 2016 Lambo for instance) History showed us that Russell could guard Wilt, as well as Thurmond etc, but such a big part of this is position their commitment to their position, while already possessing good basketball strength.

Now don't get me wrong, obviously you're strong, you're a pro athlete, but my own thought here is that given how basketball is played, position against position, and the rules that apply to it, with fouling, you aren't going to come close to maximizing your weight strength and utilizing it in this manner. While it will help you in aspects, the game is set up where even Kyle Lowry can go in and challenge a big for the board based on Bball IQ. And it's because of this why to me, who was stronger in a basketball sense would only matter in some sort of off-season combine battle Royal.

From the center position, Shaq is the only player that I have witnessed to actually play to his size and power the way one should and to me is the only outlier here because of his demanding play which remained consistent throughout his career. However, that isn't to say that Rodman, Wallace and many others haven't had success in containing him or preventing him from getting the rebound. Stronger base, lower center of gravity etc, all these things happen and it's also why there would be a noticeable size difference.

What Shaq did do though was lean on you from the start of the box, all the way into it his positioning, then post up, and this was all game long. This is also how a player gains the advantage over you by causing you to fatigue but again, this isn't weight training strength being used here. It's also why teams loaded up on bigs because when you're fatigued, you foul.

As for Wilt /Artis, both had great bodies for the game and both I am sure could out position the other. To me, it's the Bball IQ and tips/tactic's that you learn along the way that truly demonstrate who appears to be the stronger opponent.

[turk3d]

I'm not sure where "Doc" entered the discussion, but if you're referring to Dr. J (also don't think you're referring Dr. MJ the poster, lol) Julius Erving was about 6'5 1/2, definitely not 6'9.

[70sFan]

Here is Gilmore against Wes Unseld:

http://www.fuzzymemories.tv/index.php?c=1093&m=xx1970xx#videoclip-3733

Take a look at 5:22. Great move by Artis, Unseld looks hopeless.
8:00 Unseld fouls Artis during quick drop step and hook shot.
You can see Wes has some success boxing out Gilmore despite huge size difference.

http://www.fuzzymemories.tv/index.php?c=1093&m=xx1970xx#videoclip-3732

2:53 Gilmore pushes Unseld with one hand like he's a child. Amazing strenght.
4:30 Nice skyhook over Wes
5:50 traveling by Gilmore

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PayS41ZSi_8[/youtube]

Gilmore against Moses:
28;10 Gilmore with deep position scores with ease
29:30 Same story
52:30 Nice contest by Malone, but after off. rebound Artis absorbs the contact and scores with foul
1:07:50 Another deep position and score
1:28:50 Gilmore posterizes Moses
1:38:15 Moses defend him well


[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bt0QhHvJUAo[/youtube]

Gilmore against peak Walton:
0:38 Nice up and under
2:18 Rare jump hook by Gilmore
3:30 Nice acrobatic finish by Gilmore
3:55 Scores from triple team

This is really Gilmore at his peak

Now tell me Gilmore is skinny tall dude who is not strong enough to hold his own even against Wilt and Shaq