Can LeBron catch MJ and be GOAT in your list?

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Can LeBron catch MJ and be GOAT in your list?

Yes, likely to happen
36
29%
Yes, but slim chance
45
36%
No, but wouldn't bet on it
9
7%
Definitely not
34
27%
 
Total votes: 124

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Joao Saraiva
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Can LeBron catch MJ and be GOAT in your list? 

Post#1 » by Joao Saraiva » Mon Jun 20, 2016 7:38 pm

I made a post a while ago in a thread about a comparison between them and I still feel like I felt before.

Spoiler:
MJ and LeBron are a wash peak and prime wise the way I see it.

LeBron will end up with the longevity edge I think. He'll have some tremendous totals by the end of his career. And with his peak and prime that may be a deciding factor going his way.

I believe MJ was a bit more consistent. When he failed to perform by his standards, I believe he didn't fall as much as sometimes LBJ does. And that's what keeps MJ ahead for me, right now. (don't get me wrong, LeBron is a great playoff performer and very consistent, but I'd give the edge to MJ here).

As for their game:
- MJ was a better scorer. His mid range game and FT% definitely gives him a edge over LeBron. ts% is not that diferent, but Jordan's raw point production definitely puts him ahead;

- LeBron is a better playmaker. I believe his assists and playmaking are more valuable than Jordan's;

- LeBron is a better rebounder;

- They're diferent defenders. They both rotate fast. But Jordan was much more of a gambler than LeBron. And a great gambler. Jordan got a ton of steals and blocks trough that gambling and it worked out for him. LeBron keeps more in front of his player and contests.

- I think LeBron has the edge in open court situations;

- MJ was a better post up player and exploited his mismatches better to score;

- LeBron is more versatile and his 2012/13 championships are something special. Those teams had rebounding issues and no rim protector. LeBron became their rim protector and doing that was something really special. Not many perimeter players could do that for their teams, and I don't believe LeBron can be replaced for any perimeter player in the Heat while that resulting in better results.



For me the consistency of MJ still puts him ahead. However, if LeBron crushes MJ longevity wise I'd have no problem giving him the GOAT spot. But the longevity edge has to be with quality seasons, not only putting up career totals.


Do you feel with the right longevity LeBron can be the GOAT? Or what else does he have to do to surpass Michael Jordan?
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Re: Can LeBron catch MJ and be GOAT in your list? 

Post#2 » by Texas Chuck » Mon Jun 20, 2016 7:49 pm

I don't feel like anyone can answer this question honestly and say definitely not. Unless their criteria for their all-time ranking is very unique and peak driven.
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Re: Can LeBron catch MJ and be GOAT in your list? 

Post#3 » by Joao Saraiva » Mon Jun 20, 2016 7:51 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:I don't feel like anyone can answer this question honestly and say definitely not. Unless their criteria for their all-time ranking is very unique and peak driven.


So how likely do you feel it is? And in your opinion (whatever criteria you use) what does LeBron have to do?
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Re: Can LeBron catch MJ and be GOAT in your list? 

Post#4 » by Texas Chuck » Mon Jun 20, 2016 7:58 pm

Joao Saraiva wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:I don't feel like anyone can answer this question honestly and say definitely not. Unless their criteria for their all-time ranking is very unique and peak driven.


So how likely do you feel it is? And in your opinion (whatever criteria you use) what does LeBron have to do?


Barring injury and lack of motivation I'd say Lebron has a good chance of surpassing Mike in my eyes. In some ways its hard to imagine any human being capable of continuing to play at the level Lebron has been for several more years, but Lebron has given me no reason to doubt that he could. I'd say another 2 or 3 years at or approaching his current level of play and I'll have a hard time saying for sure that anyone deserves to be ranked higher than Lebron. And my list is based primarily on total career value, not limited just to peak or prime.
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Re: Can LeBron catch MJ and be GOAT in your list? 

Post#5 » by mischievous » Mon Jun 20, 2016 8:09 pm

Slim chance for me, i sort of wrote him off after 2011 for reaching goat status. But seeing how things have went since then, i think he has maybe a 20-25% chance. I think Mj peaked a little higher, and was better early in his career than Lebron, but if Lebron can reel off some crazy longevity and win 4-5 rings total i can see it. I can't have a player as goat based on longevity that's why Kareem isn't my #1 but i think Mj and Lbj are close enough for it.
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Re: Can LeBron catch MJ and be GOAT in your list? 

Post#6 » by colts18 » Mon Jun 20, 2016 8:26 pm

Yes. 2 more seasons like this and he will surpass MJ in my books.
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Re: Can LeBron catch MJ and be GOAT in your list? 

Post#7 » by GSP » Mon Jun 20, 2016 8:27 pm

Barring injury and Lebron is a cyborg anyways, its a lock at this point IMO.
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Re: Can LeBron catch MJ and be GOAT in your list? 

Post#8 » by fpliii » Mon Jun 20, 2016 8:33 pm

I'm a longevity guy foremost, so comes down to how many more quality years he can put up. 2014 seems like a blip on the radar defensively, more or less every year since the beginning of his prime he's been pretty solid on that end. Assuming that continues, he should continue to produce elite seasons.
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Re: Can LeBron catch MJ and be GOAT in your list? 

Post#9 » by WhateverBro » Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:04 pm

Yes, and I think it's fairly likely considering the edge in longevity LeBron likely will have.
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Re: Can LeBron catch MJ and be GOAT in your list? 

Post#10 » by AceofSpades69 » Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:18 pm

Possibly. 3/4 more seasons at an MVP level (2016 level) and at least two more rings in his career as a first option. That should put him slightly above MJ in my eyes.
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Re: Can LeBron catch MJ and be GOAT in your list? 

Post#11 » by Dr Spaceman » Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:19 pm

I'm willing to say at this point it's more likely than not.
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Re: Can LeBron catch MJ and be GOAT in your list? 

Post#12 » by ronnymac2 » Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:20 pm

He might have already. He'll need some more seasons of high-level play to surpass KAJ and Duncan though.
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Re: Can LeBron catch MJ and be GOAT in your list? 

Post#13 » by Dr Spaceman » Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:23 pm

To add, LeBron is already surpassing MJ in lots of cumulative metrics (reg, post, and combined) and has a serious chance to be #1 all time in scoring as well as top 5 and top 10 in the other major counting stats.

This is not to say you should value these things specifically, but to say that LeBron's career value is quite clearly closing in on every other great, and if you're using anything resembling championship odds added LeBron is something like a strong GOAT candidate by now considering he's a top 3 peak all time.
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Re: Can LeBron catch MJ and be GOAT in your list? 

Post#14 » by Sedale Threatt » Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:29 pm

mischievous wrote:Slim chance for me, i sort of wrote him off after 2011 for reaching goat status.


I did, and still do. There's a very, very thin margin for error when you get to this level, and I just can't put LeBron over a player who, his abbreviated comeback season aside, was pretty much the best player on the court in every playoff series he ever participated in. LeBron's going to end up with some insane longevity feats -- even now, 12 straight 25/6/6 years is mind-blowing -- and that will deserve some major consideration. Especially if he ends up adding even to the major achievement totals. But Jordan takes a back seat to nobody in that regard, and his peak and consistency are pretty much unmatched in my eyes. So I just can't see a realistic scenario where I'm ever going to rank LeBron ahead of Mike. Even now I think people are taking Kareem for granted. But you can make a great case already for third and that's pretty damn impressive.
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Re: Can LeBron catch MJ and be GOAT in your list? 

Post#15 » by 2klegend » Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:14 pm

I'm not a big fan of longevity. Some guys are fortunate to enter the league earlier and was able to do more. Jordan, Magic, Bird type of dominant maximized the amount of time they played in the NBA. For Jordan, he could have 8 Final and possibly 8 championship.

No matter how the fanboy slice it, 6>3, 5 > 4. Unless you argue in reverse and say the math is 4>5, 3>6. Then my hat off to you fanboy.
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Re: Can LeBron catch MJ and be GOAT in your list? 

Post#16 » by ppedro123 » Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:18 pm

2klegend wrote:I'm not a big fan of longevity. Some guys are fortunate to enter the league earlier and was able to do more. Jordan, Magic, Bird type of dominant maximized the amount of time they played in the NBA. For Jordan, he could have 8 Final and possibly 8 championship.

No matter how the fanboy slice it, 6>3, 5 > 4. Unless you argue in reverse and say the math is 4>5, 3>6. Then my hat off to you fanboy.



so in your opinion Kobe Bryant is better than LeBron James because he has more rings?
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Re: Can LeBron catch MJ and be GOAT in your list? 

Post#17 » by 2klegend » Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:29 pm

ppedro123 wrote:
2klegend wrote:I'm not a big fan of longevity. Some guys are fortunate to enter the league earlier and was able to do more. Jordan, Magic, Bird type of dominant maximized the amount of time they played in the NBA. For Jordan, he could have 8 Final and possibly 8 championship.

No matter how the fanboy slice it, 6>3, 5 > 4. Unless you argue in reverse and say the math is 4>5, 3>6. Then my hat off to you fanboy.



so in your opinion Kobe Bryant is better than LeBron James because he has more rings?

No. You have to understand the context here. Lebron doesn't have a clear case over Jordan on the stat sheet. So then the only way we can argue, from an objective standpoint, is the individual achievement. Now I fully understand the Lebron fanboy is trying to switch to the longevity argument which is fine by many and by me as well. I just don't take longevity that big. Like I said, some players are fortunate to play longer for various reasons. I care about the efficiency of their dominant in the limited amount of time they are in the league. Of course, you have to have a certain number of excellent seasons to qualify.
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Re: Can LeBron catch MJ and be GOAT in your list? 

Post#18 » by Quotatious » Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:31 pm

Sure he can. I've been saying so for a long time.

Jordan was a superstar for 11 seasons (1985, 1987-93, 1996-98), LeBron has been a superstar for 12 seasons already (2005-16), and even though I think Michael's prime was a bit better because he showed up in the finals more consistently, and he was also missing less RS games (not that the latter is very important, but LeBron missed 60 games in those 12 seasons, compared to Michael missing only 7 games in his 11 prime seasons - there's like an extra 53-game season that LeBron could have if he played all possible games, so it's still something that should be taken into account), but if LeBron adds two more 25/5/5+ seasons and then performs well in the playoffs (he doesn't necessarily have to win more championships, it's a team thing, but he has to play well individually), it's gonna be hard to argue that LeBron's career isn't superior.

We can call 2003 Jordan and 2004 LeBron a wash, I guess. That leaves MJ with 60-game lower level all-star season in 2002 and 1986+1995 combining for about a half of a mid level all-star season, so his edge in terms of longevity is very, very small right now (and those seasons don't matter that much in GOAT discussion because they were far from GOAT level).

Scary thing is, James doesn't seem to be slowing down. He won't be putting up regular seasons like 2009 or 2013 anymore, but 2015 or 2016 level RS + stepping up in the playoffs for two years will be enough.

To summarize and make my argument easier to understand - Jordan and James are already about equal in terms of longevity and their productivity is very similar - MJ has the edge but it's not a big edge. So, in order to overtake Michael, LeBron will have to have decisively superior longevity, and I'm not talking about just any longevity, but superstar longevity, top 5 in the league caliber, and then maybe one or two more top 10 seasons, at least a borderline superstar (something like Kareem's 1982-86 seasons).

Anyway, like I said a few weeks ago, I'd lean towards Kareem as my GOAT right now. I broke down Kareem vs Jordan vs LeBron some time ago, basically comes down to the fact that Kareem has 3-4 more all-star seasons than Michael and LeBron, and that's very significant.
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Re: Can LeBron catch MJ and be GOAT in your list? 

Post#19 » by RxMidnight » Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:31 pm

It's possible but still unlikely. Lebron cleared a lot of major hurdles by beating the 73 win Warriors and finally bringing a championship to Cleveland, but he still has a long way to go. While Lebron will likely surpass Jordan in cumulative career stats in everything but points and steals, winning 3 more championships and a 5th MVP is still a daunting task for a 31 year old.
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Re: Can LeBron catch MJ and be GOAT in your list? 

Post#20 » by JordansBulls » Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:37 pm

ronnymac2 wrote:He might have already. He'll need some more seasons of high-level play to surpass KAJ and Duncan though.

Huh??

Duncan??? The guy who has lost 7 series with HCA
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