Can LeBron catch MJ and be GOAT in your list?

[deezerweeze]

hes never been as good as peak jordan (or even close) so no. hell, he'll never be above shaq.

[_Game7_]

He's already better IMO. Just needs the rings to cement it. He is on the way.

[NO-KG-AI]

I don't feel like anyone can answer this question honestly and say definitely not. Unless their criteria for their all-time ranking is very unique and peak driven.

I can answer pretty definitively I think. I would change my mind I think if he was like this good or better for like 20 years total, but I don't think he'll be still close to his peak late into his 30's

He would need an unreasonably long time at this level or more. And while it's not impossible, it's really not probable. I think their peak years are a bigger gap that the overall statistics say, because LeBron had more exploitable holes in his game that caused problems at times, where we really never saw Jordan get bogged down enough to sway or even impact a series significantly.


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[E-Balla]

I can't give someone GOAT status off longevity. It's the reason Kareem is third under Russell and Jordan on my list and the reason he used to be 4th under Magic, Russell, and MJ.

Do you think Magic had a better prime than Kareem?

If so, then I would strongly disagree. Sure, Magic's prime was a lot more decorated in terms of team success, but Magic never had supporting casts nearly as bad Kareem had in 1975-79 (and he hit his peak around '76/'77, individually).

I do. I think Kareem in 76/77 probably peaked higher than Magic but Magic from 85-87 is better than any other stretch of Kareem's career and I think 89-91 Magic might be better than any other stretch of Kareem's prime too. Individually I'd take Magic from 85-87 and 89-91 over any other PG's 3 year peaks too and 1988 is pancaked in there so it gets forgotten but he still lead the number 2 offense that year and averaged 21/6/13 on 68 TS (136 ORTG) in the Finals against the Bad Boy Pistons (they held the Bulls to a 95 ORTG and the Celtics to a 101). All in all I'm not sure if there's any players I could definitively say give me a better chance of winning 7 straight championships (or 6 of 7 thanks to his injury in 89) than Magic from 85-91.

[Joao Saraiva]

I can't understand most people's argument. Since LeBron had the 2011 NBA finals he can never be 1st.

So if LeBron had 10 seasons of 1991 MJ, 10 seasons of 2009 LeBron and 1 2011 NBA season he wouldn't be GOAT?

Doesn't make sense to me.

That season should not be a big plus on his career, but still added value. Before those finals LeBron still had a great regular season and two very difficult rounds in the playoffs where he performed at very high level (Celtics and Bulls).

[Quotatious]

I can't understand most people's argument. Since LeBron had the 2011 NBA finals he can never be 1st.

So if LeBron had 10 seasons of 1991 MJ, 10 seasons of 2009 LeBron and 1 2011 NBA season he wouldn't be GOAT?

Doesn't make sense to me.

That season should not be a big plus on his career, but still added value. Before those finals LeBron still had a great regular season and two very difficult rounds in the playoffs where he performed at very high level (Celtics and Bulls).

Yeah, I don't get it, either. LeBron was an amazing player for 94 games before the finals (79 RS and 15 PS), and most people remember him for the 6-game fiasco against the Mavs...I understand, that was the most important moment of the season, but by focusing intensely on his finals, they basically ignore 94% of his season (since he played 100 games, and 6 of those were in the finals). Completely irrational and people who do that totally lack common sense. If LeBron didn't have that awesome series against the Bulls in ECF, Miami may've lost...Chicago was a better team than Miami in the RS, I think people forget that...

Realistically, LeBron was probably the best player in the league prior to the finals in 2011. It was a down year for him, but that's because his standards were so ridiculously high. You have 2009 and 2010 on one side, 2012 and 2013 on the other, so 2011 being sandwitched in the middle of four GOAT level seasons, is gonna look relatively bad, but was 2011 LeBron really worse than 1997 or 1998 Jordan or 2008 Kobe, looking at the entirety of that season, and not focusing so much on one out-of-character bad series? I don't think so.

[BuzzerBeaterBry]

but was 2011 LeBron really worse than 1997 or 1998 Jordan or 2008 Kobe.

Yes... far, far worse than Kobe in '08... much more than you can imagine...

(Playoffs - where it really matters)

KB: 30.1 PPG / 5.6 APG / 3.3 TOs on .577 TS%

LBJ: 23.7 PPG / 5.9 APG / 3.1 TOs on .563 TS%

Offensively, Kobe was in another stratosphere from 2011 Lebron...


In the clutch (5 point differential, less than five minutes),

KB: 3.6 PPG / 0.3 APG / 0.1 TOs on .620 TS%

LBJ: 3.1 PPG / 0.4 APG / 0.4 TOs on .523 TS%


Defensively, even with Lebron averaging more rebounds, steals, and blocks, I'd take Kobe comfortably, considering his superior man-to-man defense and roaming abilities which he displayed in the finals and WCF

[Superbasketball]

I am a big Lebron fan but I don't think cumulative stats matter that much. I don't think it would be too difficult for Lebron to average 25/6/6 for even the next 3 years in the RS especially if he doesn't hold back for the post season. A guy like Lebron can basically pad his stats vs weaker opposition that do not have the defensive players to slow him down. Teams like Nets and Hornets just cannot stop Lebron at all, even the top defensive teams Lebron can still get his 25/6/6 if he wants to perhaps with less efficiency that desired.

Unless Lebron gets hurt or loses a lot of his athleticism he just cannot be stopped from getting his stats in the RS. Even then he probably can still get his normal stats unless he gets old and he can develop his jump shot or post game.

[Quotatious]

but was 2011 LeBron really worse than 1997 or 1998 Jordan or 2008 Kobe.

Yes... far, far worse than Kobe in '08... much more than you can imagine...

(Playoffs - where it really matters)

KB: 30.1 PPG / 5.6 APG / 3.3 TOs on .577 TS%

LBJ: 23.7 PPG / 5.9 APG / 3.1 TOs on .563 TS%

Offensively, Kobe was in another stratosphere from 2011 Lebron...


In the clutch (5 point differential, less than five minutes),

KB: 3.6 PPG / 0.3 APG / 0.1 TOs on .620 TS%

LBJ: 3.1 PPG / 0.4 APG / 0.4 TOs on .523 TS%


Defensively, even with Lebron averaging more rebounds, steals, and blocks, I'd take Kobe comfortably, considering his superior man-to-man defense and roaming abilities which he displayed in the finals and WCF

LeBron's volume was lower than usual because that was the only year when he played with another top offensive superstar. Prior to the finals, he was averaging 26 ppg, on 57% TS, facing elite defenses in every round.

We all know about LeBron's choke in the finals, but if you read my previous post carefully, you'll see that I said LeBron was great in everything before the finals, which he was. Great RS and great playoffs in the Eastern conference.

Also, RS absolutely matters. What do you do with players who didn't play in the postseason, for whatever reason, but they were clearly awesome in RS? You pretend they don't exist? I mean, for example Kobe in 2005 - he was a great player and it clearly wasn't his fault that the Lakers missed the playoffs in '05. Same with LeBron and KG in '05. Wilt in '63, Kareem in '76, Barkley in '88, Westbrook in '15, etc.

Defensively, what LeBron did in the Chicago series was easily more impressive than anything Kobe did in the '08 playoffs on defense, to me. Rose really struggled when defended by James, and he was the reigning league MVP at that time.

Kobe's roaming abilities led to the Lakers getting torched from the 3-pt land by Pierce, Allen and Posey in the finals. Kobe's defense was okay, but he still let the Celtics shooters some open looks as a result of his roaming. You can't really roam when you face such great shooters as Pierce and Allen.

[Superbasketball]

Lebron has to win probably 5-6 rings imo and have some big seasons. Further development of his skills like his jump shot and post game is key. A big achievement like maybe a repeat or even a three peat will be huge.

[Joao Saraiva]

Lebron has to win probably 5-6 rings imo and have some big seasons. Further development of his skills like his jump shot and post game is key. A big achievement like maybe a repeat or even a three peat will be huge.

So if LeBron goes away from Cleveland, has great seasons teaming up with Green, Klay and Curry he surpasses MJ?

But if he does have the same big seasons in Cleveland but doesn't win he doesn't surpass?

Is it about LBJ producing individually or is it about having a better situation?

[LeBird]

Where's the option for "He already has surpassed him". Because for me, you take Lebron everyday.

[eminence]

I'm pretty big on longevity.And I have Lebron/MJ pretty much in a dead heat right now, so with even one more high-level season I'll have Lebron ahead, but catching KAJ/Duncan atop the rankings will be more difficult(3 or so more MVP level seasons).

[ils411]

In my list? Lebron never will catch MJ EVER. And its all because of his forming the superfriends in mIami and then making sure he had superstars around him in clevland. These two actions alone forever diminishes his achievements in my eyes.

[Superbasketball]

Lebron has to win probably 5-6 rings imo and have some big seasons. Further development of his skills like his jump shot and post game is key. A big achievement like maybe a repeat or even a three peat will be huge.

So if LeBron goes away from Cleveland, has great seasons teaming up with Green, Klay and Curry he surpasses MJ?

But if he does have the same big seasons in Cleveland but doesn't win he doesn't surpass?

Is it about LBJ producing individually or is it about having a better situation?

I think I was reading this thread in terms of Lebron being step for step with MJ as well not just passing MJ. I think at this point Lebron should stay in Cleveland and try to win more rings. I think going to another team in some way diminishes what he does in the future especially if he goes superteam with KD.

I think MJ is so hard to catch and because of that Lebron basically needs the same number of rings to convince more of the public that Lebron is at least in the conversation.

I do think overall Lebron dominance, his skills and his peak when his jumper is on and he is locked in defensively rival Jordan if not surpasses. He is probably the better overall player but he leaves things to be desired when he plays passive. It drives me crazy like in game 4, he should just be aggressive offensively. Even in game 7, I felt he should have been more aggressive and don't know why he doesn't cut to the basket or why Lebron didn't try something like the Kyrie dump off pass to trailing Lebron in the last minute.

[Joao Saraiva]

Where's the option for "He already has surpassed him". Because for me, you take Lebron everyday.

Vote on yes, likely to happen just so I don't have to reset the poll. I feel like there is more of a general consensus that Mike is ahead.

Care to explain what makes you put LeBron already ahead?

[LeBird]

Where's the option for "He already has surpassed him". Because for me, you take Lebron everyday.

Vote on yes, likely to happen just so I don't have to reset the poll. I feel like there is more of a general consensus that Mike is ahead.

Care to explain what makes you put LeBron already ahead?

Because as a player he's better at everything except for being marginally worse scorer.

Because he makes lottery teams contenders overnight.

Because he won when the odds were against him consistently.

Because the era he played in was tougher and he's already beaten multiple teams better than those that Jordan ever beat.

You switch the teams they inherited, etc, and Lebron is gonna do far better than Jordan because he's a team-first player who improves his team significantly.

[afox]

I can't understand most people's argument. Since LeBron had the 2011 NBA finals he can never be 1st.

So if LeBron had 10 seasons of 1991 MJ, 10 seasons of 2009 LeBron and 1 2011 NBA season he wouldn't be GOAT?

Doesn't make sense to me.

That season should not be a big plus on his career, but still added value. Before those finals LeBron still had a great regular season and two very difficult rounds in the playoffs where he performed at very high level (Celtics and Bulls).

Yeah, I don't get it, either. LeBron was an amazing player for 94 games before the finals (79 RS and 15 PS), and most people remember him for the 6-game fiasco against the Mavs...I understand, that was the most important moment of the season, but by focusing intensely on his finals, they basically ignore 94% of his season (since he played 100 games, and 6 of those were in the finals). Completely irrational and people who do that totally lack common sense. If LeBron didn't have that awesome series against the Bulls in ECF, Miami may've lost...Chicago was a better team than Miami in the RS, I think people forget that...

Realistically, LeBron was probably the best player in the league prior to the finals in 2011. It was a down year for him, but that's because his standards were so ridiculously high. You have 2009 and 2010 on one side, 2012 and 2013 on the other, so 2011 being sandwitched in the middle of four GOAT level seasons, is gonna look relatively bad, but was 2011 LeBron really worse than 1997 or 1998 Jordan or 2008 Kobe, looking at the entirety of that season, and not focusing so much on one out-of-character bad series? I don't think so.

He's judged based on what he does on the biggest stage. Just like the 6 game fiasco doesn't make sense to you, we wouldn't even be having this convo if it wasn't for his last 3 games. And even still, wouldn't be having it if GS had pulled it out.
IMO, this is the first time he's even done something comparable to MJ, talking about those last 3 games. And it was awesome.
But to hear you guys talk, all a guy has to do is have great consistency for 20 years. Doesn't winning count at all?
Accolades? etc..(Rhetorical) The bar MJ has set isn't fair. I'll give you that. He was being called the greatest after the first 3 peat. But like one poster said, he had no discernable weakness. His career is just storybook...It's gonna have to take a lot to overtake him...That means no slips...10 scoring titles, 6 and 5 MVPs DPOY 1st team all NBA every year he played except 2nd team as rookie behind Magic and Isiah..All D every year except first 2 full..(obviously not counting Wash years, hell he was an all star 2x then)Two 3-peats..with different teams..After leaving in his prim, for practically 2 full seasons...Back to back 72 and 69 win seasons... Last gold medal winners as collegians and first as pros, on the greatest team ever assembled in pro sports..
And there was never any question who the best player on the planet was, no matter who won the MVP...That has been questioned with James more than once..Just hard to catch...James has finally done something worthy of note though. And it only took 13 years...
Have to add this prev post..
What's this Jordan never went to 7 games in the Finals...? He only went 7 games 3x in his career...2x after the first championship winning both...the other was a loss to the 90 Pistons ECF...He did go 5 once...he won that too. He GUARANTEED the Game 7 win over Indiana...He just did mythical stuff....The press gets on him during the playoffs for going to Atlantic City till like 2 in the morning...He doesn't talk to them until after the next game...After dropping 55 on the Knicks...Those who weren't old enough, have no idea...

[afox]

I can't understand most people's argument. Since LeBron had the 2011 NBA finals he can never be 1st.

So if LeBron had 10 seasons of 1991 MJ, 10 seasons of 2009 LeBron and 1 2011 NBA season he wouldn't be GOAT?

Doesn't make sense to me.

That season should not be a big plus on his career, but still added value. Before those finals LeBron still had a great regular season and two very difficult rounds in the playoffs where he performed at very high level (Celtics and Bulls).

Yeah, I don't get it, either. LeBron was an amazing player for 94 games before the finals (79 RS and 15 PS), and most people remember him for the 6-game fiasco against the Mavs...I understand, that was the most important moment of the season, but by focusing intensely on his finals, they basically ignore 94% of his season (since he played 100 games, and 6 of those were in the finals). Completely irrational and people who do that totally lack common sense. If LeBron didn't have that awesome series against the Bulls in ECF, Miami may've lost...Chicago was a better team than Miami in the RS, I think people forget that...

Realistically, LeBron was probably the best player in the league prior to the finals in 2011. It was a down year for him, but that's because his standards were so ridiculously high. You have 2009 and 2010 on one side, 2012 and 2013 on the other, so 2011 being sandwitched in the middle of four GOAT level seasons, is gonna look relatively bad, but was 2011 LeBron really worse than 1997 or 1998 Jordan or 2008 Kobe, looking at the entirety of that season, and not focusing so much on one out-of-character bad series? I don't think so.

He's judged based on what he does on the biggest stage. Just like the 6 game fiasco doesn't make sense to you, we wouldn't even be having this convo if it wasn't for his last 3 games. And even still, wouldn't be having it if GS had pulled it out.
IMO, this is the first time he's even done something comparable to MJ, talking about those last 3 games. And it was awesome.
But to hear you guys talk, all a guy has to do is have great consistency for 20 years. Doesn't winning count at all?
Accolades? etc..(Rhetorical) The bar MJ has set isn't fair. I'll give you that. He was being called the greatest after the first 3 peat. But like one poster said, he had no discernable weakness. His career is just storybook...It's gonna have to take a lot to overtake him...That means no slips...10 scoring titles, 6 and 5 MVPs DPOY 1st team all NBA every year he played except 2nd team as rookie behind Magic and Isiah..All D every year except first 2 full..(obviously not counting Wash years, hell he was an all star 2x then)Two 3-peats..with different teams..After leaving in his prim, for practically 2 full seasons...Back to back 72 and 69 win seasons... Last gold medal winners as collegians and first as pros, on the greatest team ever assembled in pro sports..
And there was never any question who the best player on the planet was, no matter who won the MVP...That has been questioned with James more than once..Just hard to catch...James has finally done something worthy of note though. And it only took 13 years...
Have to add this prev post..
What's this Jordan never went to 7 games in the Finals...? He only went 7 games 3x in his career...2x after the first championship winning both...the other was a loss to the 90 Pistons ECF...He did go 5 once...he won that too. He GUARANTEED the Game 7 win over Indiana...He just did mythical stuff....The press gets on him during the playoffs for going to Atlantic City till like 2 in the morning...He doesn't talk to them until after the next game...After dropping 55 on the Knicks...Those who weren't old enough, have no idea...

There are players(multiple) that can guard James very well...No one could check Mike..Someone would be declared the Jordan stopper by the press, and he would make an example of him...Being able to produce that dominance on call when everyone was watching....that's part of what you guys overlook with James...MJ would have taken Kawhi's soul, 2 years ago...Not been outplayed by him...Same with Iggy...He's been outplayed on the biggest stage...not just underproduced...
Same on D...guys regularly beat James...let me rephrase...regular type guys regularly beat James...not so much with Mike...

[Texas Chuck]

I don't feel like anyone can answer this question honestly and say definitely not. Unless their criteria for their all-time ranking is very unique and peak driven.

I can answer pretty definitively I think. I would change my mind I think if he was like this good or better for like 20 years total, but I don't think he'll be still close to his peak late into his 30's

He would need an unreasonably long time at this level or more. And while it's not impossible, it's really not probable. I think their peak years are a bigger gap that the overall statistics say, because LeBron had more exploitable holes in his game that caused problems at times, where we really never saw Jordan get bogged down enough to sway or even impact a series significantly.


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Sure--if your list places a heavy emphasis on peak I think that's the exception. And I know some people do put a great deal of emphasis on peak which is more than reasonable.

Some of these other silly narrative reasons itt tho.