RealGM

Who was the better player?

I'm going with D-Rob. He gets the beans for getting roughed up by Olajuwon, but in general, he was a better player than Moses. better defender, specifically, and that's where he gets a lot of his mileage, because he was also a comparable to superior regular season offensive player. Moses makes up some ground by lasting a bit more in the playoffs as far as his regular season performance, loses some because Robinson was a better playmaker and still provided the same level of foul pressure regardless of his individual scoring average and of course that defense just hangs there.

I can see some Malone arguments, but I'd tend towards Robinson because I'd rather run my primary offense through a wing player anyway, so Moses' major advantage here is less useful and less versatile in deployment. Robinson's defense is more positionally relevant and makes him more portable.... plus in a vacuum, I think the defensive gap is larger than the offensive gap.

I would have loved to see what 1995 dRob could do with 4 all star teammates and a HoF coach.

replacing Avery, Vinnie, Rodman and Elliot with Payton, Richmond, Pippen and Anthony Mason would curtail DRobs scoring but allow him to dominate in all other areas. Imagine the defense with GP, Pippen, DROb.

Warspite wrote: Imagine the defense with GP, Pippen, DROb.

You know, I do not miss 70-point games...

Going Robinson pretty convincingly, in this one.

Malone as a 1st option, Robinson as a 2nd option

This is a classic case where stats and/or breaking down each player into strength and weaknesses just doesn't give the right picture. Moses Malone just went at you. He was relentless, he broke down your spirit, he mowed you and your team down. And the only reason 1983 Moses didn't put up monster stats is he played an all-time great team. The year prior he put up 31/15... Anyways it's hard to hold the stacked team against him when he had to go up against the Showtime Lakers.

Give me Moses and I don't wanna say easily but comfortably to be honest.

Djoker wrote:This is a classic case where stats and/or breaking down each player into strength and weaknesses just doesn't give the right picture. Moses Malone just went at you. He was relentless, he broke down your spirit, he mowed you and your team down. And the only reason 1983 Moses didn't put up monster stats is he played an all-time great team. The year prior he put up 31/15... Anyways it's hard to hold the stacked team against him when he had to go up against the Showtime Lakers.

Give me Moses and I don't wanna say easily but comfortably to be honest.

What's your response to the massive gap on defense?

tsherkin wrote:What's your response to the massive gap on defense?

Exactly. Even the best defensive version of Moses (which was in 1983), is like two tiers below prime D-Rob on defense, and defense is very important for centers.

tsherkin wrote:

Djoker wrote:This is a classic case where stats and/or breaking down each player into strength and weaknesses just doesn't give the right picture. Moses Malone just went at you. He was relentless, he broke down your spirit, he mowed you and your team down. And the only reason 1983 Moses didn't put up monster stats is he played an all-time great team. The year prior he put up 31/15... Anyways it's hard to hold the stacked team against him when he had to go up against the Showtime Lakers.

Give me Moses and I don't wanna say easily but comfortably to be honest.

What's your response to the massive gap on defense?

Probably similar to your response to the massive gap on offense I'd imagine.

E-Balla wrote:Probably similar to your response to the massive gap on offense I'd imagine.

Even offensively, D-Rob had some advantages over Moses - better passer (by far, I dare say), better shooting range. Defensively, it's hard to think of anything that Moses did better than David, sans for defensive rebounding.

E-Balla wrote:

tsherkin wrote:

Djoker wrote:This is a classic case where stats and/or breaking down each player into strength and weaknesses just doesn't give the right picture. Moses Malone just went at you. He was relentless, he broke down your spirit, he mowed you and your team down. And the only reason 1983 Moses didn't put up monster stats is he played an all-time great team. The year prior he put up 31/15... Anyways it's hard to hold the stacked team against him when he had to go up against the Showtime Lakers.

Give me Moses and I don't wanna say easily but comfortably to be honest.

What's your response to the massive gap on defense?

Probably similar to your response to the massive gap on offense I'd imagine.

This isn't really an appropriate response, though, because there is a yawning chasm on defense in favor of Robinson and the offensive gap between the two isn't nearly the same size.

Djoker wrote:This is a classic case where stats and/or breaking down each player into strength and weaknesses just doesn't give the right picture. Moses Malone just went at you. He was relentless, he broke down your spirit, he mowed you and your team down. And the only reason 1983 Moses didn't put up monster stats is he played an all-time great team. The year prior he put up 31/15... Anyways it's hard to hold the stacked team against him when he had to go up against the Showtime Lakers.

Give me Moses and I don't wanna say easily but comfortably to be honest.

Yes, Moses had the killer instinct that the Admiral lacked.

Quotatious wrote:

tsherkin wrote:What's your response to the massive gap on defense?

Exactly. Even the best defensive version of Moses (which was in 1983), is like two tiers below prime D-Rob on defense, and defense is very important for centers.

Didn't you pick KG over Russell for offence ?


I think it's slightly Admiral . I also pick 77 Walton over Peak Moses .

Quotatious wrote:

E-Balla wrote:Probably similar to your response to the massive gap on offense I'd imagine.

Even offensively, D-Rob had some advantages over Moses - better passer (by far, I dare say), better shooting range. Defensively, it's hard to think of anything that Moses did better than David, sans for defensive rebounding.

Moses was as good as Robinson as a man defender and a better rebounder.

And offensively DRob was a better passer with more range but that doesn't mean he was comparable to Moses. Moses' power game and offensive rebounding are on a completely different level from Robinson's and Robinson not being a crap passer and having a marginally deeper range on his jumper that's still useless means nothing when comparing them offensively.

tsherkin wrote:

E-Balla wrote:

tsherkin wrote:
What's your response to the massive gap on defense?

Probably similar to your response to the massive gap on offense I'd imagine.

This isn't really an appropriate response, though, because there is a yawning chasm on defense in favor of Robinson and the offensive gap between the two isn't nearly the same size.

I'd disagree with that. We've seen Moses lead some great offenses that managed to perform well in the playoffs. Same can't be said for David Robinson unless we're only counting the years he wasn't a super high volume scorer. Moses is a first option and Robinson a 2nd they're levels apart from each other on that end and I don't think you can compare the two.

E-Balla wrote:

Quotatious wrote:

E-Balla wrote:Probably similar to your response to the massive gap on offense I'd imagine.

Even offensively, D-Rob had some advantages over Moses - better passer (by far, I dare say), better shooting range. Defensively, it's hard to think of anything that Moses did better than David, sans for defensive rebounding.

Moses was as good as Robinson as a man defender and a better rebounder.

And offensively DRob was a better passer with more range but that doesn't mean he was comparable to Moses. Moses' power game and offensive rebounding are on a completely different level from Robinson's and Robinson not being a crap passer and having a marginally deeper range on his jumper that's still useless means nothing when comparing them offensively.

In addition to passing and range, I'd add that Robinson was a far better finisher at the rim (not close) and much better running in transition (again: not at all close). As an offensive intangible, I'd tentatively bring up Robinson's screen setting, too. I bring it up "tentatively" only because I admit I don't remember if Moses was effective in this regard. But Robinson set great screens for the pnr (which they used A LOT in the pre-Duncan days). The only guys (off the top of my head) who set equal or better screens than DRob are Unseld, Garnett, maybe Russell. HM maybe to Joakim Noah.


I also think it's debatable as to whether Moses was as effective of a low-post man defender (I'd lean slightly toward "no" on that, personally).

E-Balla wrote:

tsherkin wrote:

E-Balla wrote:Probably similar to your response to the massive gap on offense I'd imagine.

This isn't really an appropriate response, though, because there is a yawning chasm on defense in favor of Robinson and the offensive gap between the two isn't nearly the same size.

I'd disagree with that. We've seen Moses lead some great offenses......

Generally while leading poor (or basement-level) defenses, fwiw. Same cannot be said of Robinson, regardless of supporting cast.

E-Balla wrote:.......that managed to perform well in the playoffs. Same can't be said for David Robinson unless we're only counting the years he wasn't a super high volume scorer.

It's true, Moses was a better playoff performer; won't deny that at all. The primary thing he's better at offensively (ORebs) is something that I think is difficult to game-plan against or stop. Ultimately shots are going to go up, and there will be Moses for the offensive rebound. You can stick to him and even face-guard him, but that worsens your help defense and may only be moderately successful in keeping him off the offensive glass anyway. You can double-team on the box-out, but that will leave one of his teammates not boxed out to attack the glass.

There's not exactly a set play for Moses that you can game-plan against to shut down. For Robinson, there were preferred plays you could successfully inhibit by throwing double (and triple) teams at him, as the Rockets did in '95. Then the Spurs only hope is for guys like VDN, Sean Elliott, and Avery Johnson to have great games.

E-Balla wrote: Moses is a first option and Robinson a 2nd they're levels apart from each other on that end and I don't think you can compare the two.

Eh, I'm comfortable giving Moses the edge offensively, but I think saying "they're levels apart" offensively overstates things pretty substantially. I don't think a guy who is capable of winning a scoring title on good efficiency for a playoff-level team (offense rated 5th/27), and avg >25 ppg on fair efficiency in the playoffs, too, generally while facing frequent doubles is "levels apart" from anyone except the most singularly elite offensive players (guys like Lebron, Jordan, Kareem, etc).

trex_8063 wrote:

E-Balla wrote:

Quotatious wrote:Even offensively, D-Rob had some advantages over Moses - better passer (by far, I dare say), better shooting range. Defensively, it's hard to think of anything that Moses did better than David, sans for defensive rebounding.

Moses was as good as Robinson as a man defender and a better rebounder.

And offensively DRob was a better passer with more range but that doesn't mean he was comparable to Moses. Moses' power game and offensive rebounding are on a completely different level from Robinson's and Robinson not being a crap passer and having a marginally deeper range on his jumper that's still useless means nothing when comparing them offensively.

In addition to passing and range, I'd add that Robinson was a far better finisher at the rim (not close) and much better running in transition (again: not at all close). As an offensive intangible, I'd tentatively bring up Robinson's screen setting, too. I bring it up "tentatively" only because I admit I don't remember if Moses was effective in this regard. But Robinson set great screens for the pnr (which they used A LOT in the pre-Duncan days). The only guys (off the top of my head) who set equal or better screens than DRob are Unseld, Garnett, maybe Russell. HM maybe to Joakim Noah.


I also think it's debatable as to whether Moses was as effective of a low-post man defender (I'd lean slightly toward "no" on that, personally).

Breaking it up into small categories doesn't change the fact that Moses was a better on ball offensive player and a better off ball offensive player.

Moses' offensive rebounding wreaked havoc on opposing teams. From 1979-1983 the man averaged 6.5 offensive rebounds per game in the playoffs!! That is 6-7 extra shots for his team and it's statistically proven that shots off of offensive rebounds are generally much higher quality that regular shots too because the defense gets caught out of place and/or Moses gets it at point blank range. That kind of offensive rebounding has enormous impact.

If you don't believe what a monster Moses was, just look at the personal foul tallies of HOF centers like Kareem, Parish, Gilmore etc. that faced prime Moses. It's 4+ fouls for those guys in virtually every game and more than a handful of games where they fouled out. For me, Moses' sheer dominance overtakes Robinson's edge in defense.