RealGM

Curious to see how these PGs compare and how other view who's a better player.

Who is the better
- pure scorer
- shooter
- passer
- rebounder
- defender
- had a higher basketball IQ
- better leader
- better overall player ( if he was going to be the starting point of your team/ building block)

Cyrusman122000 wrote:Curious to see how these PGs compare and how other view who's a better player.

Who is the better
- pure scorer
- shooter

Well, these are easy. Wall actually isn't a good scorer, both of these are pretty obviously Kyrie.

Passer/playmaker: Wall

Defender: Obviously Wall

Rebounder: Wall

- had a higher basketball IQ
- better leader

Mmm. Tough to say. Both focus on different strengths, and I don't see either of them as meaningful "leaders," really.

- better overall player ( if he was going to be the starting point of your team/ building block)

Wouldn't start a team with either of them. If I REALLY had to, probably Irving. I value his offense more than what Wall brings, positionally. But yeah, wouldn't choose to start a team with either, given the choice. Neither is a franchise anchor.

I think Irving is easier to build around in today's game, Wall is a good player but still hasn't reached his potential as a defender or scorer.

Pure Scorer: Irving
Shooter: Irving
Passer: Wall
Rebounder: Wall
Defender: Probably Wall
IQ: Don't watch Wall enough to have a good gauge on this
Leader: Irving
Overall: Both are very different players, but like I said, I'd rather build around Irving.

tsherkin summarized this one up well. I wouldn't want to build around either of these players as a cornerstone, franchise player. Both have proven that they can't do anything of note as the #1.

RCM88x wrote:I think Irving is easier to build around in today's game, Wall is a good player but still hasn't reached his potential as a defender or scorer.

Pure Scorer: Irving
Shooter: Irving
Passer: Wall
Rebounder: Wall
Defender: Probably Wall
IQ: Don't watch Wall enough to have a good gauge on this
Leader: Irving
Overall: Both are very different players, but like I said, I'd rather build around Irving.

Does leader mean you build around him or someone who leads those around him? I haven't ever seen anything like leadership from Kyrie, by the time he was mature and good enough, he had LeBron to take that role; Wall I have but also some negative leadership (his Beal comments for example).

I seem to be a lot higher on Wall than most. I think he could be a perfect 2nd fiddle to almost any superstar in the league, although Kyrie is the perfect compliment to LeBron at the moment. I would love to see Wall team up with Boogie or AD one day though.

ItsThatEasy wrote:I seem to be a lot higher on Wall than most. I think he could be a perfect 2nd fiddle to almost any superstar in the league, although Kyrie is the perfect compliment to LeBron at the moment. I would love to see Wall team up with Boogie or AD one day though.

I think Wall would be very good with Cousins or AD, absolutely. As long as he doesn't have to be a significant source of scoring, he can be a very good player for his team. He contributes a lot, he just can't be the focal point driving the offense.

- pure scorer: Irving
- shooter: Irving
- passer: Wall
- rebounder: Wall
- defender: Wall
- had a higher basketball IQ: Wall I guess, but might be a push here
- better leader: Also a push, but I'll give the edge to Kyrie. Those two recent techs against Wall a no-no.
- better overall player: Kyrie probably...monster ISO scorer. Just need to be careful how you build around him.

penbeast0 wrote:

RCM88x wrote:I think Irving is easier to build around in today's game, Wall is a good player but still hasn't reached his potential as a defender or scorer.

Pure Scorer: Irving
Shooter: Irving
Passer: Wall
Rebounder: Wall
Defender: Probably Wall
IQ: Don't watch Wall enough to have a good gauge on this
Leader: Irving
Overall: Both are very different players, but like I said, I'd rather build around Irving.

Does leader mean you build around him or someone who leads those around him? I haven't ever seen anything like leadership from Kyrie, by the time he was mature and good enough, he had LeBron to take that role; Wall I have but also some negative leadership (his Beal comments for example).

Someone who leads those around him. Kyrie's certainly not top tier here, but he's never really made negative comments against teams like Wall has numerous times.

Wouldn't build around either as a 1st option, obviously, but if you tell me I get one of these guys as a 2nd option and a better player to lead the team, I'll take Wall for sure.

penbeast0 wrote:

RCM88x wrote:I think Irving is easier to build around in today's game, Wall is a good player but still hasn't reached his potential as a defender or scorer.

Pure Scorer: Irving
Shooter: Irving
Passer: Wall
Rebounder: Wall
Defender: Probably Wall
IQ: Don't watch Wall enough to have a good gauge on this
Leader: Irving
Overall: Both are very different players, but like I said, I'd rather build around Irving.

Does leader mean you build around him or someone who leads those around him? I haven't ever seen anything like leadership from Kyrie, by the time he was mature and good enough, he had LeBron to take that role; Wall I have but also some negative leadership (his Beal comments for example).

This is what I meant when i was referring to leadership. Someone who can lead those around him, and elevate others.

RCM88x wrote:I think Irving is easier to build around in today's game, Wall is a good player but still hasn't reached his potential as a defender or scorer.

Pure Scorer: Irving
Shooter: Irving
Passer: Wall
Rebounder: Wall
Defender: Probably Wall
IQ: Don't watch Wall enough to have a good gauge on this
Leader: Irving
Overall: Both are very different players, but like I said, I'd rather build around Irving.

Probably? Kyrie is one of the worst defenders in the NBA over the last 5 seasons at the PG spot with one decent year two years ago. Wall has been a plus defender st the PG spot and that is a rarity.

As for a leader, I do t see the argument for Kyrie unless allowing James to control the team counts. Kyrie takes bad shots out of the flow of the offense and doesn't play any defense. Not sure what kind of leader that is. Kyrie as a team's best player will mean that the team doesn't make the playoffs.

homecourtloss wrote:

RCM88x wrote:I think Irving is easier to build around in today's game, Wall is a good player but still hasn't reached his potential as a defender or scorer.

Pure Scorer: Irving
Shooter: Irving
Passer: Wall
Rebounder: Wall
Defender: Probably Wall
IQ: Don't watch Wall enough to have a good gauge on this
Leader: Irving
Overall: Both are very different players, but like I said, I'd rather build around Irving.

Probably? Kyrie is one of the worst defenders in the NBA over the last 5 seasons at the PG spot with one decent year two years ago. Wall has been a plus defender st the PG spot and that is a rarity.

As for a leader, I do t see the argument for Kyrie unless allowing James to control the team counts. Kyrie takes bad shots out of the flow of the offense and doesn't play any defense. It sure what kind of leader that is. Juries as a team's best player will mean that the team doesn't make the playoffs.

Wall criticised the his team for the SIZE of his second best players contract. I don't think Wall will ever amount to much in the league if he continues with the mindset and attitude he currently has

As far as defense, Kyrie puts in much more effort, even if he isn't better overall. However Kyrie played some pretty good defense in the playoffs, which I think counts for a lot.

RCM88x wrote:

homecourtloss wrote:

RCM88x wrote:I think Irving is easier to build around in today's game, Wall is a good player but still hasn't reached his potential as a defender or scorer.

Pure Scorer: Irving
Shooter: Irving
Passer: Wall
Rebounder: Wall
Defender: Probably Wall
IQ: Don't watch Wall enough to have a good gauge on this
Leader: Irving
Overall: Both are very different players, but like I said, I'd rather build around Irving.

Probably? Kyrie is one of the worst defenders in the NBA over the last 5 seasons at the PG spot with one decent year two years ago. Wall has been a plus defender st the PG spot and that is a rarity.

As for a leader, I do t see the argument for Kyrie unless allowing James to control the team counts. Kyrie takes bad shots out of the flow of the offense and doesn't play any defense. It sure what kind of leader that is. Juries as a team's best player will mean that the team doesn't make the playoffs.

Wall criticised the his team for the SIZE of his second best players contract. I don't think Wall will ever amount to much in the league if he continues with the mindset and attitude he currently has

As far as defense, Kyrie puts in much more effort, even if he isn't better overall. However Kyrie played some pretty good defense in the playoffs, which I think counts for a lot.

Wall's not much of leader either.

Kyrie had a few good defensive games in the playoffs but that's it.

The Cavs were 14.6 points per 100 possession worse on defense with him on court in last year's playoffs. He was abysmal against the Pistons.

He was giving up baskets to everybody in the playoffs. See his DFG% here:

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/202681/tracking/defense/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs

Here's his numbers for the finals:

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/202681/tracking/defense/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs&DateTo=06%2F30%2F2016&DateFrom=06%2F01%2F2016

Both of them awful sets of numbers. He was helped greatly by the fact that the Cavs rightfully often doubled him and forced him to give up the ball.