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How would you rank Elvin Hayes? I think he used to be a bit overrated but now he seems to be overlooked when people talk about the best PFs ever.

Above Chris Webber for a start. Hayes could be unlovable personally as many of his teammates and coaches will attest. He was in love with his turnaround in the post which made him less efficient than most of the other greats. But . . . he was a powerful rebounding force who played good defense and an ironman who carried the Bullets/Wizards to their only title (as well as putting up big numbers with the early Rockets). He's not in the top tier of Duncan/KMalone/Dirk/Pettit/Barkley but he's in the next tier of 5-10 and probably toward the top of it.

70sFan wrote:How would you rank Elvin Hayes? I think he used to be a bit overrated but now he seems to be overlooked when people talk about the best PFs ever.

Im not much of a fan. Note that he's before my time so I value beast and others chiming in but I've always seen a guy in Hayes that was seen by many as being the star over Unseld because of scoring, but it was hideously unefficient.

I think it's pretty safe to say he'd have to really change his approach to succeed in today's game, and his personality only makes that tougher.


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I don't know about ranking since I don't have an all-time list, but one thing I do know (a sentiment I've expressed before in the past) is that I don't want him on my team.

70sFan wrote:How would you rank Elvin Hayes? I think he used to be a bit overrated but now he seems to be overlooked when people talk about the best PFs ever.

I'm going to ramble for a little bit about Elvin Hayes, but whatever. Anyways, one day, I was looking up stats for 70's guys, and I noticed Hayes' name next to some very gaudy scoring and rebounding totals. Like, HOF all time great numbers. Going strictly off of the raw box score stats, Elvin Hayes has to be the most obscure, least-talked about superstar of all time. I rarely, if ever, hear him discussed when the greats of the 70's and early 80's are discussed. When someone talks about a particular player, I can usually picture them in my mind and generally know what they played like, if only in the most general sense.....

But Hayes? Nope, I've got no clue as to what he looks like or how he played. Was he a jumpshooter a la Bob Mcadoo, or was he more of a post player like Artis Gilmore? I have absolutely no idea at all. And when it comes to his peers, I've never heard anyone sing his praises like they sing Maravich's, Tiny Archibald's, and guys like that. So he must've not been too liked by players of that era either?

PockyCandy wrote:

70sFan wrote:How would you rank Elvin Hayes? I think he used to be a bit overrated but now he seems to be overlooked when people talk about the best PFs ever.

I'm going to ramble for a little bit about Elvin Hayes, but whatever. Anyways, one day, I was looking up stats for 70's guys, and I noticed Hayes' name next to some very gaudy scoring and rebounding totals. Like, HOF all time great numbers. Going strictly off of the raw box score stats, Elvin Hayes has to be the most obscure, least-talked about superstar of all time. I rarely, if ever, hear him discussed when the greats of the 70's and early 80's are discussed. When someone talks about a particular player, I can usually picture them in my mind and generally know what they played like, if only in the most general sense.....

But Hayes? Nope, I've got no clue as to what he looks like or how he played. Was he a jumpshooter a la Bob Mcadoo, or was he more of a post player like Artis Gilmore? I have absolutely no idea at all. And when it comes to his peers, I've never heard anyone sing his praises like they sing Maravich's, Tiny Archibald's, and guys like that. So he must've not been too liked by players of that era either?

Same here. I know the name, era, position, and some tidbits of information (low efficiency, high volume, bad reputation, etc.), but nothing in depth.

Something amazing at first glance though? He played 16 seasons and played in 80+ games every season. He played 80 games once, 81 games 7 times, and 82 games 8 times. And he averaged 38.4 MPG over his career.

Impressive.

PockyCandy wrote:

70sFan wrote:How would you rank Elvin Hayes? I think he used to be a bit overrated but now he seems to be overlooked when people talk about the best PFs ever.

But Hayes? Nope, I've got no clue as to what he looks like or how he played. Was he a jumpshooter a la Bob Mcadoo, or was he more of a post player like Artis Gilmore? I have absolutely no idea at all. And when it comes to his peers, I've never heard anyone sing his praises like they sing Maravich's, Tiny Archibald's, and guys like that. So he must've not been too liked by players of that era either?

Take Jermaine O'Neal and extend his prime to about twelve seasons - that's roughly who Hayes was as a player. Good rebounder and shotblocker, very good defender overall. On offense, he was a high volume scorer but with unimpressive efficiency, plus Hayes played a plethora of minutes so his per36 output is not all that amazing. Kind of a black hole, too. Both had a tendency to trust their turnaround jumpers too much.

As for his reputation, well...

Bill Fitch to Ralph Sampson wrote:You stay away from that no-good, ***** prick

Alex Hannum wrote:the most despicable person I've ever met in sports

Rich Michmond wrote:

PockyCandy wrote:

70sFan wrote:How would you rank Elvin Hayes? I think he used to be a bit overrated but now he seems to be overlooked when people talk about the best PFs ever.

But Hayes? Nope, I've got no clue as to what he looks like or how he played. Was he a jumpshooter a la Bob Mcadoo, or was he more of a post player like Artis Gilmore? I have absolutely no idea at all. And when it comes to his peers, I've never heard anyone sing his praises like they sing Maravich's, Tiny Archibald's, and guys like that. So he must've not been too liked by players of that era either?

Take Jermaine O'Neal and extend his prime to about twelve seasons - that's roughly who Hayes was as a player. Good rebounder and shotblocker, very good defender overall. On offense, he was a high volume scorer but with unimpressive efficiency, plus Hayes played a plethora of minutes so his per36 output is not all that amazing. Kind of a black hole, too. Both had a tendency to trust their turnaround jumpers too much.

As for his reputation, well...

Bill Fitch to Ralph Sampson wrote:You stay away from that no-good, ***** prick

Alex Hannum wrote:the most despicable person I've ever met in sports

I"m going to show my age (again) by telling you that I never saw Jermaine O'neal's prime. But I did see diminished O'neal, so if I take that and put it on steroids, then I can see what you mean.

Also, Bill fitch really disliked Hayes

Think Anthony Davis if he were ~90% the player that he is today

Was he more impactful than a Melo or Nique type player?

Effercon wrote:Think Anthony Davis if he were ~90% the player that he is today

Nothing really suggests that he's anywhere near Davis offensively.

PockyCandy wrote:

70sFan wrote:How would you rank Elvin Hayes? I think he used to be a bit overrated but now he seems to be overlooked when people talk about the best PFs ever.

I'm going to ramble for a little bit about Elvin Hayes, but whatever. Anyways, one day, I was looking up stats for 70's guys, and I noticed Hayes' name next to some very gaudy scoring and rebounding totals. Like, HOF all time great numbers. Going strictly off of the raw box score stats, Elvin Hayes has to be the most obscure, least-talked about superstar of all time. I rarely, if ever, hear him discussed when the greats of the 70's and early 80's are discussed. When someone talks about a particular player, I can usually picture them in my mind and generally know what they played like, if only in the most general sense.....

But Hayes? Nope, I've got no clue as to what he looks like or how he played. Was he a jumpshooter a la Bob Mcadoo, or was he more of a post player like Artis Gilmore? I have absolutely no idea at all. And when it comes to his peers, I've never heard anyone sing his praises like they sing Maravich's, Tiny Archibald's, and guys like that. So he must've not been too liked by players of that era either?

Closest modern equivalent would be DeMarcus Cousins, not because of game similarity but because in relative talent level and reputation. Hayes was impressively talented, the Jermaine O'Neal comp isn't bad but JO wasn't as strong or physical, nor did he rebound as well. Offensively, he was a primarily a post scorer who would set up in the mid-post and just spam his turnaround jumper all game long. He ran the floor well but was a mediocre passer out of the post. Defensively, he was a good shot blocker and a good man defender as well with decent instincts and awareness of what was going on around him. Ironman who didn't miss a lot of games in his prime. He had very thin skin when he talked to the press and seemed to be whiny and not that articulate.

mischievous wrote:Was he more impactful than a Melo or Nique type player?

He's very impactful defender and it's possible that overall his impact is higher than Melo or Nique. I don't think he's close to them offensively though.

mischievous wrote:

Effercon wrote:Think Anthony Davis if he were ~90% the player that he is today

Nothing really suggests that he's anywhere near Davis offensively.

Why?


Around 40-45, in the same tier with Kidd/Unseld/Payton/Thurmond.

70sFan wrote:

mischievous wrote:Was he more impactful than a Melo or Nique type player?

He's very impactful defender and it's possible that overall his impact is higher than Melo or Nique. I don't think he's close to them offensively though.

Hayes was similar to 2004 Jermaine O'Neal. Elite defender, excellent rebounder, and a guy who had some good moves offensively, but relied way too much on his fadeaway, and was an inefficient scorer as a result. Both were kind of "black holes" with mediocre passing ability and questionable decision making on offense.

feyki wrote:

mischievous wrote:

Effercon wrote:Think Anthony Davis if he were ~90% the player that he is today

Nothing really suggests that he's anywhere near Davis offensively.

Why?


Around 40-45, in the same tier with Kidd/Unseld/Payton/Thurmond.

Hayes gets ranked that high due to defense and longevity/ durability, not his offensive impact.

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SactoKingsFan wrote:

feyki wrote:

mischievous wrote:Nothing really suggests that he's anywhere near Davis offensively.

Why?


Around 40-45, in the same tier with Kidd/Unseld/Payton/Thurmond.

Hayes gets ranked that high due to defense and longevity/ durability, not his offensive impact.

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I also think his defensive impact was more than his offensive one. But don't see a big gap between Davis and Hayes. Davis also has lacking of playmaking, doesn't have great shooting too. And probably worse offensive rebounder than Hayes. What makes him much better on offence?

feyki wrote:

mischievous wrote:

Effercon wrote:Think Anthony Davis if he were ~90% the player that he is today

Nothing really suggests that he's anywhere near Davis offensively.

Why?


Around 40-45, in the same tier with Kidd/Unseld/Payton/Thurmond.

I'd love to have any of those guys play a similar role today they played back then.

Hayes could not. He frankly shouldn't have played that way back then. Add in his attitude and I don't know if I'd even draft him.


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Doctor MJ wrote:

feyki wrote:

mischievous wrote:Nothing really suggests that he's anywhere near Davis offensively.

Why?


Around 40-45, in the same tier with Kidd/Unseld/Payton/Thurmond.

I'd love to have any of those guys play a similar role today they played back then.

Hayes could not. He frankly shouldn't have played that way back then. Add in his attitude and I don't know if I'd even draft him.


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I'd rank them based on what they did in their era. Rest are meaningless to me. Of course, talking about their skills or athleticism level and comparing todays ballers fine. But older players don't need being a fit any era, like Shaq doesn't need playing in the 60's to be an ATG.