How good was peak Dr. J?

[Morb]

1975-1976 was his best season? Any highlights? How bad was ABA competition compared with NBA?

[Heej]

From what I understand ABA teams came over to the nba and translated well instantly, with most being stronger defensively believe it or not. I'm looking forward to the answers in these threads because from what I hear in terms of 2 way all around wing impact Dr J was the precursor to Lebron.

[Morb]

Yep, I remember, Dr. J was the best in "huge palm style", I very much like it.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

[GeneralManager]

This question is really hard for me because I find it difficult to rate the ABA, especially considering that Erving's stats massively dropped across the board the moment he entered the nba. Not just a slight drop, we're talking a massive drop, like a shock to the system, "man these guys are good."

Then he slowly recovered from this initial shock in competitiveness and slowly raised his numbers back to relatively high status.

The peaks project overrates his peak. Wade's peak, for example, is better in my opinion.

[70sFan]

Really good. Definitely on par with any perimeter player. I also disagree that Wade is clearly better than him.

[Goudelock]

This question is really hard for me because I find it difficult to rate the ABA, especially considering that Erving's stats massively dropped across the board the moment he entered the nba. Not just a slight drop, we're talking a massive drop, like a shock to the system, "man these guys are good."

Then he slowly recovered from this initial shock in competitiveness and slowly raised his numbers back to relatively high status.

The peaks project overrates his peak. Wade's peak, for example, is better in my opinion.

iirc, he went from being the unquestioned #1 on the team, to playing on a Sixers team filled with a ton of other scorers in Doug Collins, Geroge McGinnis, and World B Free. So that was the reason that his numbers dropped so drastically upon entering the NBA.

I guess it would kind of be like if MJ went from Chicago to a team with Dominique Wilkins, Mark Aguirre, and Reggie Theus after, say, 1989. He'd still be a great player, but his numbers wouldn't have been nearly as awesome because he'd be playing with a bunch of other scorers.

Then again, this assumes that the ABA was just as good as the NBA when Dr. J played in 1976.

[Morb]

DAAAMN

Watch on YouTube

Anyone dunked on Jabbar like this?

[70sFan]

This question is really hard for me because I find it difficult to rate the ABA, especially considering that Erving's stats massively dropped across the board the moment he entered the nba. Not just a slight drop, we're talking a massive drop, like a shock to the system, "man these guys are good."

Then he slowly recovered from this initial shock in competitiveness and slowly raised his numbers back to relatively high status.

The peaks project overrates his peak. Wade's peak, for example, is better in my opinion.

iirc, he went from being the unquestioned #1 on the team, to playing on a Sixers team filled with a ton of other scorers in Doug Collins, Geroge McGinnis, and World B Free. So that was the reason that his numbers dropped so drastically upon entering the NBA.

I guess it would kind of be like if MJ went from Chicago to a team with Dominique Wilkins, Mark Aguirre, and Reggie Theus after, say, 1989. He'd still be a great player, but his numbers wouldn't have been nearly as awesome because he'd be playing with a bunch of other scorers.

Then again, this assumes that the ABA was just as good as the NBA when Dr. J played in 1976.

Also, he showed that he was capable of playing at very high level in playoffs, especially in finals when his teammates disappointed. His effort against the Blazers was incredible.

[GeorgeMarcus]

The peaks project overrates his peak. Wade's peak, for example, is better in my opinion.

Where can I find this peak project you're referring to?

[GeneralManager]

This question is really hard for me because I find it difficult to rate the ABA, especially considering that Erving's stats massively dropped across the board the moment he entered the nba. Not just a slight drop, we're talking a massive drop, like a shock to the system, "man these guys are good."

Then he slowly recovered from this initial shock in competitiveness and slowly raised his numbers back to relatively high status.

The peaks project overrates his peak. Wade's peak, for example, is better in my opinion.

iirc, he went from being the unquestioned #1 on the team, to playing on a Sixers team filled with a ton of other scorers in Doug Collins, Geroge McGinnis, and World B Free. So that was the reason that his numbers dropped so drastically upon entering the NBA.

I guess it would kind of be like if MJ went from Chicago to a team with Dominique Wilkins, Mark Aguirre, and Reggie Theus after, say, 1989. He'd still be a great player, but his numbers wouldn't have been nearly as awesome because he'd be playing with a bunch of other scorers.

Then again, this assumes that the ABA was just as good as the NBA when Dr. J played in 1976.

I respectfully disagree.

If Dr J TRULY was a Top 15 player/talent, then there is no way he (or his coach) would be deferring to players not in the TOP 200. That would be absur in my opinion. Something else is going on here. You don't lose a third of your production because you team up with guys outside the TOP 200.

It's not just scoring, either. His rebounding took a giant hit, and his assists took a hit too (shouldn't his assists increase if he's shooting less and passing more, they didn't increase, the assist numbers took a hit too).

The only explanation seems to be a shock to the brain and shock to the body from increased competition in the new league.

[GeneralManager]

The peaks project overrates his peak. Wade's peak, for example, is better in my opinion.

Where can I find this peak project you're referring to?

In the stickys tacked at the top of the PC board.

[Colbinii]

This question is really hard for me because I find it difficult to rate the ABA, especially considering that Erving's stats massively dropped across the board the moment he entered the nba. Not just a slight drop, we're talking a massive drop, like a shock to the system, "man these guys are good."

Then he slowly recovered from this initial shock in competitiveness and slowly raised his numbers back to relatively high status.

The peaks project overrates his peak. Wade's peak, for example, is better in my opinion.

Against the "World Champions" Erving put up 30/7/5 on 54.3 FG%, a far cry from being "shocked". I do agree there were some differences and areas where he had to adapt, but his actual gameplay wasn't close to a "massive drop".

The biggest reason for Erving drop in statistics is because of the talent he had on his team. I mean, you have a team that at the top 4 are better than the Current Cavaliers with Julius Erving, George McGinnis, Doug Collins (20 PPG in 1976), and World B. Free. Erving took it upon himself to integrate himself into the team rather than have the team revolve around him.

His impact speaks for itself, .33 SRS team in 1976 to 3.78 SRS in 1977, from a top 10 team to a top 2/3 team in the league. Increasing a team by ~3.5 SRS is getting into all-time great levels.

[Colbinii]

his assists took a hit too (shouldn't his assists increase if he's shooting less and passing more, they didn't increase, the assist numbers took a hit too).

His assists won't increase if he doesn't have the ball as much as he did before.

[Quotatious]

His 1975-76 season is arguably a top 10 peak of all-time, maybe even better than Magic's and Bird's peaks (at least it's in the same tier). He had one of the GOAT finals performances, on par with 1991-93 Jordan, 2000-02 Shaq or 2016 LeBron. The fact that he performed so well against a very strong team like the Nuggets, pretty much validates his numbers for the entire season, in my eyes.

Peak Doc was as good as any perimeter player not named Jordan or LeBron.

[wojoaderge]

If Dr J TRULY was a Top 15 player/talent, then there is no way he (or his coach) would be deferring to players not in the TOP 200.

At the time, George McGinnis was considered by many to be the 2nd best forward in basketball, and Collins a top 5 guard.

[GeneralManager]

This question is really hard for me because I find it difficult to rate the ABA, especially considering that Erving's stats massively dropped across the board the moment he entered the nba. Not just a slight drop, we're talking a massive drop, like a shock to the system, "man these guys are good."

Then he slowly recovered from this initial shock in competitiveness and slowly raised his numbers back to relatively high status.

The peaks project overrates his peak. Wade's peak, for example, is better in my opinion.

Against the "World Champions" Erving put up 30/7/5 on 54.3 FG%, a far cry from being "shocked". I do agree there were some differences and areas where he had to adapt, but his actual gameplay wasn't close to a "massive drop".

The biggest reason for Erving drop in statistics is because of the talent he had on his team. I mean, you have a team that at the top 4 are better than the Current Cavaliers with Julius Erving, George McGinnis, Doug Collins (20 PPG in 1976), and World B. Free. Erving took it upon himself to integrate himself into the team rather than have the team revolve around him.

His impact speaks for itself, .33 SRS team in 1976 to 3.78 SRS in 1977, from a top 10 team to a top 2/3 team in the league. Increasing a team by ~3.5 SRS is getting into all-time great levels.

Then why didn't Erving's assist numbers improve?

If his scoring tanked and he became a greater facilitator/assister then I could see that as an explanation, but that didn't happen. His scoring output tanked AND his assisting took a hit.

His rebounding tanked too.

Every aspect of his game was less effective when he moved to the nba. He did adapt and recover over time though.

[wojoaderge]

Then why didn't Erving's assist numbers improve?

If his scoring tanked and he became a greater facilitator/assister then I could see that as an explanation, but that didn't happen. His scoring output tanked AND his assisting took a hit.

His rebounding tanked too.

Every aspect of his game was less effective when he moved to the nba. He did adapt and recover over time though.

He was outrebounded and out-assisted by the other star forward on the team. When was the other guy was traded, that's when he "recovered."

[GeneralManager]

his assists took a hit too (shouldn't his assists increase if he's shooting less and passing more, they didn't increase, the assist numbers took a hit too).

His assists won't increase if he doesn't have the ball as much as he did before.

Exactly, if you are truly a Top 15 player how do you get reduced to a 2nd option behind George McGinnis (~2 fewer attempts per game, fewer assists, fewer rebounds) the year immediately following his peak season.

This was either a massive coaching error or Julius Erving was not adjusting well to the new competition.

How many Top 15 players became a 2nd option to a non-top-100 player in the year immediately following their peak season.

Something is wrong here.

[Colbinii]

Then why didn't Erving's assist numbers improve?

He wasn't asked to be a playmaker. Look at his team, look at that roster, and look at the talent. His primary focus when joining was to be good defender, which he was. Look at his 1976 roster, look at the talent, and you can see what he was asked to do.

If his scoring tanked and he became a greater facilitator/assister then I could see that as an explanation, but that didn't happen. His scoring output tanked AND his assisting took a hit.

Yup, and believe it or not, we have reasoning for this. We have context for why this happened, and it is up to you are the receiver of this information to interpret in any way you wish.

I interpret it as Erving sacrificed a lot to improve a team from playoff fodder to NBA Champion-level. How do you interpret his impact if the team improved over 3 SRS? That is All-time Great level impact we are looking at.

His rebounding tanked too.

Yup, but did you notice who he joined to play with? George McGinnis (averaged 12.6 RPG in 1976) and Caldwell Jones (Averaged 8.1 RPG in just 24 minutes!).

I feel like you are being too harsh and reading into the numbers far too much without actually seeing his gameplay and comparing it over the two years.

[Colbinii]

his assists took a hit too (shouldn't his assists increase if he's shooting less and passing more, they didn't increase, the assist numbers took a hit too).

His assists won't increase if he doesn't have the ball as much as he did before.

Exactly, if you are truly a Top 15 player how do you get reduced to a 2nd option behind George McGinnis (~2 fewer attempts per game).

This was either a massive coaching error or Julius Erving was not adjusting well to the new competition.

How many Top 15 players became a 2nd option to a non-top-100 player in the year immediately following their peak season.

Something is wrong here.

Well, Look at Philly in 1975:

-2.6 SRS, 17th ranked offense, 13th ranked defense

Philly adds George McGinnis and they improve to:

.33 SRS (7th), 11th ranked offense, 8th ranked defense

Wow! Philly adds this guy and he turns into a stud! Let's see if we can add another player to our already developing team and see where he fits. It would be foolish to give Erving the reigns after we improved so drastically from McGinnis!

1977 Philly, with the addition of Erving:

3.78 SRS (3rd), 6th ranked offense, 4th ranked defense

Yup, looks like Erving is having a massive impact. He didn't force himself on the team, he didn't "take over" and ruin chemistry, because he didn't need to take over, and he valued being a good teammates over "stat padding". If that makes him worse, by all means, he is a worse player.