RealGM Top 100 All-Time (2017)

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RealGM Top 100 All-Time (2017) 

Post#1 » by trex_8063 » Wed Jun 7, 2017 9:06 pm

Well the time is upon us to do another Top 100 of All-Time project. PLEASE READ ALL OF THIS OP TO BE FAMILIAR WITH THE PROCESS AND GUIDELINES

Links to prior lists:
Doctor MJ's spreadsheet with information back to 2006 and some 2003
RealGM Top 100 List 2008
RealGM Top 100 List 2011
Poster Pre-Lists from before 2014 project
RealGM Top 100 List 2014
Poster Pre-Lists from before 2017 project


2017 List
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Lebron James
4. Bill Russell
5. Tim Duncan
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Magic Johnson
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Larry Bird
11. Kobe Bryant
12. Kevin Garnett
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Karl Malone
15. Jerry West
16. Julius Erving
17. Dirk Nowitzki
18. David Robinson
19. Charles Barkley
20. Moses Malone
21. John Stockton
22. Dwyane Wade
23. Chris Paul
24. Bob Pettit
25. George Mikan
26. Steve Nash
27. Patrick Ewing
28. Kevin Durant
29. Stephen Curry
30. Scottie Pippen
31. John Havlicek
32. Elgin Baylor
33. Clyde Drexler
34. Rick Barry
35. Gary Payton
36. Artis Gilmore
37. Jason Kidd
38. Walt Frazier
39. Isiah Thomas
40. Kevin McHale
41. George Gervin
42. Reggie Miller
43. Paul Pierce
44. Dwight Howard
45. Dolph Schayes
46. Bob Cousy
47. Ray Allen
48. Pau Gasol
49. Wes Unseld
50. Robert Parish
51. Russell Westbrook
52. Alonzo Mourning
53. Dikembe Mutombo
54. Manu Ginobili
55. Chauncey Billups
56. Willis Reed
57. Bob Lanier
58. Allen Iverson
59. Adrian Dantley
60. Dave Cowens
61. Elvin Hayes
62. Dominique Wilkins
63. Vince Carter
64. Alex English
65. Tracy McGrady
66. James Harden
67. Nate Thurmond
68. Sam Jones
69. Kevin Johnson
70. Bob McAdoo
71. Sidney Moncrief
72. Paul Arizin
73. Grant Hill
74. Bobby Jones
75. Chris Bosh
76. Tony Parker
77. Shawn Marion
78. Hal Greer
79. Ben Wallace
80. Dan Issel
81. Larry Nance
82. James Worthy
83. Chris Webber
84. Rasheed Wallace
85. Dennis Rodman
86. Horace Grant
87. Elton Brand
88. Terry Porter
89. Maurice Cheeks
90. Carmelo Anthony
91. Tim Hardaway
92. Jack Sikma
93. Billy Cunningham
94. Mookie Blaylock
95. Chet Walker
96. Kawhi Leonard
97. Vlade Divac
98. Bill Walton
99. Connie Hawkins
100. Mel Daniels
HM's: Honorable Mentions

Anyone and everyone is free to participate in the discussion during the course of this project. However, the voter pool will be pre-approved by a panel of moderators. Tenured posters in good standing will be allowed into the voter pool immediately.
Newer/less-known posters or posters with questionable records may be asked to participate in the discussion WITHOUT being allowed a counted vote for a few threads, to demonstrate capable knowledge, genuine intent, and ability to converse in a respectful manner. If they pass this “trial period”, they will then be made eligible voters.

Pending details of user record and history, the “trial period” may be longer and more arduous for some than it is for others.

But here’s the important part: YOU MUST STATE YOUR DESIRE TO VOTE IN THE PROJECT IN THIS THREAD (though this is not required to participate in the project discussion).


This top 100 list is to comprise the greatest in all of BAA/NBA/ABA history (EDIT: you may also consider NBL as far back as '47, though I imagine Mikan is the only individual for whom this consideration applies). I am not going to stipulate a specific criteria that we all must follow. Everyone is free to be guided by their own values as to their ranking. However, the one thing I do ask [given this is to be an ALL-TIME list] is that you consider ALL players from all eras of BAA/NBA/ABA history.

I know there are a few individuals who only rank players post-merger or some other relatively arbitrary cut-off. For the purposes of this project, that is simply inadequate. I ask that you familiarize yourself [to the best of your ability] with players from all eras (going back as far as the BAA), and from the ABA as well, so that you can make educated speculations on the appropriate rank of players in an “all-time” sense.

If you do not feel up to that task, I would ask that you be up front about this and refrain from voting in the project (though please still participate in the discussion).


Given we are not forcing a specific set of criteria on posters, please be aware as we move thru this project that the criteria of other posters will often differ from your own. As such, there isn’t always a “right and wrong” in much of this…...just differing value systems. Please hold that in mind and be respectful to one and other.

If you’re going to participate, I would like it if you would take a little time [if you haven’t already done so] to outline your criteria in this thread:

Official Criteria Thread

That way, anyone you are debating with/against can at least get an idea of where you’re coming from.


The project is likely to start at the end of June and will take ~8 months to finish. It’s a long process, and I hope those participating stick with it to the end (imo, it’s a lot of the later positions that get interesting, as there’s so much less separating each individual place once we’re past ~#50).
While the resulting list is always a big curiosity for me, too, it’s the discussion that I hope we can make vibrant, textured, and useful for future reference.

EDIT: For voting procedure, we're going to experiment with something new, a Ranked Choice Vote (RCV). The procedure is pretty simple: basically you'd state who your top pick is (with supporting arguments), then also stipulate who your second pick would be (you will not be required to do a write-up or provide arguments for your secondary pick, though other posters may ask you your reasoning)). If no single player has the majority (>50%) of first place votes, then the player with the LEAST number of first place votes is eliminated.....and every voter who voted for that eliminated player has their second choice votes added to the total (the first place total) of the surviving candidates. If that doesn't result in somebody having a majority, the player with the next least number of first place votes is eliminated, and again second choice votes are transferred. Lather, rinse, repeat until a majority is reached (or until only two candidates remain: whoever has the most between the two of them).

Here's the graphic that fpliii provided:
fpliii wrote:
Image


EDIT (updated 9/17/17): Beginning in thread #43, we will continue using the ranked choice vote as we have been as a means of narrowing the field down to TWO candidates (or potentially 3, in the event of a tie for 2nd place, or a 3-way tie for 1st, etc). We will then automatically enter a run-off [which will be open to ALL registered project participants, even if they had not cast an initial vote in that particular thread] between those 2+ candidates----EDIT (9/11/17); UNLESS it is possible to narrow to ONE candidate who obtains a true majority----where participants are asked to specify with ONE of those candidates they favor (at least cursory reasons for one's pick is required). EDIT (9/11/17): Additional runoffs will be done as needed if a majority for one player is not achieved.
EDIT of 9/10/17: In the event that the ranked choice system does not clearly narrow it to 2 candidates, the number of 2nd ballot votes received will be used as the means of determining the run-off candidates.


EDIT (update 1/6/18): In the event of a runoff involving four (or more) players, we do the initial [narrowing the field] runoff as a ballot point system: everyone specify their TOP pick among the four and their SECOND choice among the four (2 pts awarded for first picks, 1 pt for second picks). Hopefully this will yield a better chance of narrowing the four down to two (the two with the most points after 24 hours), wherein we can proceed with a more standard runoff.

EDIT (update 1/29/18): A player may NOT be excluded from the runoff if he received at least a secondary vote from >60% of the participating voters, even if he was not one of the top two in 1st ballots. The runoff he is included in must be at least a 3-player runoff, however.


This is a somewhat experimental procedure relative to prior projects. Hopefully it goes well. However, if there are issues, we can go back to the same single-vote procedure from the 2014 project, which is as follows:
1) We vote for one position/rank at a time, starting at #1 and proceeding to #100.
2) Each eligible voter can cast their vote for ONE player. Votes MUST be accompanied by some arguments that demonstrate you have given serious consideration to your choice (i.e. something like “won six MVP’s” or “highest ppg of all-time” or similar is not adequate; your vote will not be counted if adequate justification is not provided).
3) You may change your vote if you feel compelled to do so. If you do wish to change your vote, please edit your original vote post and otherwise just give me a heads-up post that you’ve changed your vote.
4) The vote for each thread/position will be open for ~48 hours. At the end of that 48-hour period if one player has a majority of the total vote, that player will be awarded the rank being voted on. If no single player has a majority of the vote, we will enter a 24-hour run-off vote between the top 2 vote recipients (or rarely the top 3, in event of a tie). If your original vote was cast for one of the players in the run-off, you do NOT need to repeat your vote once we go into run-off (your original vote will simply be counted). i.e. only vote in the run-off if you original vote was NOT for one of the two run-off contestants (or if you wish to change your original vote).
5) We (the panel of moderators) will be watching closely for any evidence of collusion or “manipulation” of the vote. If we become suspicious an individual is participating in this manner, he or she may be removed from the voter panel, pending further investigation and/or trial period. EDIT: those guilty of any other general misbehavior may also be removed from the voter panel.


I think that’s about it. Again, if you want to vote, please make your request here. Any questions, concerns, etc you may have, now is the time to ask as well.

Voter Panel
trex_8063
eminence
Colbinii
Clyde Frazier
Quotatious

PaulieWal
Texas Chuck
drza
Dr Spaceman
fpliii

Hornet Mania
Eddy_JukeZ
SactoKingsFan
Blackmill
JordansBulls

RSCD3_
BasketballFan7
micahclay
PockyCandy
ardee

RCM88x
Tesla
Joao Saraiva
LA Bird
MyUniBroDavis

kayess
2klegend
penbeast0
MisterHibachi
70sFan

mischievous
Doctor MJ
Dr Positivity
Jaivl
Bad Gatorade

andrewww
Moonbeam
Cyrusman122000
Winsome Gerbil
Narigo

wojoaderge
TrueLAfan
90sAllDecade
Outside
scabbarista

janmagn
lebron3-14-3
Arman_tanzarian
oldschooled
Pablo Novi

john248
mdonnelly1989
Senior
twolves97
JoeMalburg

pandrade83
euroleague
CodeBreaker
dhsilv2
fundamentals21

Owly
Ainosterhaspie
HeartBreakKid
All-Time NE Fantasy Team
PG-Chauncey Billups (06-08)/Terry Porter (91-93)
SG-George Gervin (78-80)/Danny Green
SF-R. Barry (67-70)/Bruce Bowen (04-06)
PF-Ho Grant (92-94)/D. Cowens (74-76)
C-D. Robinson (94-96)/Kevin Willis (92-94)
Bill Sharman (coach)
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Re: RealGM Top 100 All-Time (2017)---List, voter panel, meta-thinking thre 

Post#2 » by janmagn » Wed Jun 7, 2017 9:16 pm

Definetly interested in voting
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Re: RealGM Top 100 All-Time (2017)---List, voter panel, meta-thinking thre 

Post#3 » by eminence » Wed Jun 7, 2017 9:36 pm

trex_8063 wrote: I know there are a few individuals who only rank players post-merger or some other relatively arbitrary cut-off. For the purposes of this project, that is simply inadequate. I ask that you familiarize yourself [to the best of your ability] with players from all eras (going back as far as the BAA), and from the ABA as well, so that you can make educated speculations on the appropriate rank of players in an “all-time” sense.


Would love to participate of course, but asking for a bit of clarification here, would that mean starting from the '46-'47 BAA season? Would any NBL seasons be under consideration, or only NBA/BAA/ABA?
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Re: RealGM Top 100 All-Time (2017)---List, voter panel, meta-thinking thre 

Post#4 » by trex_8063 » Wed Jun 7, 2017 10:09 pm

eminence wrote:
trex_8063 wrote: I know there are a few individuals who only rank players post-merger or some other relatively arbitrary cut-off. For the purposes of this project, that is simply inadequate. I ask that you familiarize yourself [to the best of your ability] with players from all eras (going back as far as the BAA), and from the ABA as well, so that you can make educated speculations on the appropriate rank of players in an “all-time” sense.


Would love to participate of course, but asking for a bit of clarification here, would that mean starting from the '46-'47 BAA season? Would any NBL seasons be under consideration, or only NBA/BAA/ABA?


I meant starting from '47 in the BAA, yes. Generally speaking, I wasn't going to include the NBL (mostly due to lack of records/materials). I suppose one could give it minor consideration as long as only going back as far as '47 (so it's on equal footing with any BAA/NBA players). For practical purposes, Mikan is really the only person this applies to.

EDIT: And you're in, btw.
All-Time NE Fantasy Team
PG-Chauncey Billups (06-08)/Terry Porter (91-93)
SG-George Gervin (78-80)/Danny Green
SF-R. Barry (67-70)/Bruce Bowen (04-06)
PF-Ho Grant (92-94)/D. Cowens (74-76)
C-D. Robinson (94-96)/Kevin Willis (92-94)
Bill Sharman (coach)
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Re: RealGM Top 100 All-Time (2017)---List, voter panel, meta-thinking thre 

Post#5 » by eminence » Wed Jun 7, 2017 10:46 pm

trex_8063 wrote:
eminence wrote:
trex_8063 wrote: I know there are a few individuals who only rank players post-merger or some other relatively arbitrary cut-off. For the purposes of this project, that is simply inadequate. I ask that you familiarize yourself [to the best of your ability] with players from all eras (going back as far as the BAA), and from the ABA as well, so that you can make educated speculations on the appropriate rank of players in an “all-time” sense.


Would love to participate of course, but asking for a bit of clarification here, would that mean starting from the '46-'47 BAA season? Would any NBL seasons be under consideration, or only NBA/BAA/ABA?


I meant starting from '47 in the BAA, yes. Generally speaking, I wasn't going to include the NBL (mostly due to lack of records/materials). I suppose one could give it minor consideration as long as only going back as far as '47 (so it's on equal footing with any BAA/NBA players). For practical purposes, Mikan is really the only person this applies to.

EDIT: And you're in, btw.



Thanks!

And sounds good. Mikan was really the only one I was thinking of as well, was just going to be a bit strange thinking of him starting in '49 while knowing he dominated for a couple years before that in an equal league(or probably better simply due to his presence).

May try to throw together an HM list of guys from outside those 3 leagues as well (Sabonis, Haynes, Kurland come to mind immediately).

Edit: Now that I think about it Schayes gets back his rookie season as well, and Davies/Risen would be getting some helpful seasons that could push them onto the list.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 All-Time (2017)---List, voter panel, meta-thinking thre 

Post#6 » by Colbinii » Wed Jun 7, 2017 11:07 pm

eminence wrote:
trex_8063 wrote:
eminence wrote:
Would love to participate of course, but asking for a bit of clarification here, would that mean starting from the '46-'47 BAA season? Would any NBL seasons be under consideration, or only NBA/BAA/ABA?


I meant starting from '47 in the BAA, yes. Generally speaking, I wasn't going to include the NBL (mostly due to lack of records/materials). I suppose one could give it minor consideration as long as only going back as far as '47 (so it's on equal footing with any BAA/NBA players). For practical purposes, Mikan is really the only person this applies to.

EDIT: And you're in, btw.



Thanks!

And sounds good. Mikan was really the only one I was thinking of as well, was just going to be a bit strange thinking of him starting in '49 while knowing he dominated for a couple years before that in an equal league(or probably better simply due to his presence).

May try to throw together an HM list of guys from outside those 3 leagues as well (Sabonis, Haynes, Kurland come to mind immediately).


Don't forget the great Oscar Schmidt!

Trex, if I could, I would like to be in.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 All-Time (2017)---List, voter panel, meta-thinking thre 

Post#8 » by eminence » Wed Jun 7, 2017 11:25 pm

Spoiler:
Colbinii wrote:
eminence wrote:
trex_8063 wrote:
I meant starting from '47 in the BAA, yes. Generally speaking, I wasn't going to include the NBL (mostly due to lack of records/materials). I suppose one could give it minor consideration as long as only going back as far as '47 (so it's on equal footing with any BAA/NBA players). For practical purposes, Mikan is really the only person this applies to.

EDIT: And you're in, btw.



Thanks!

And sounds good. Mikan was really the only one I was thinking of as well, was just going to be a bit strange thinking of him starting in '49 while knowing he dominated for a couple years before that in an equal league(or probably better simply due to his presence).

May try to throw together an HM list of guys from outside those 3 leagues as well (Sabonis, Haynes, Kurland come to mind immediately).


Don't forget the great Oscar Schmidt!

Trex, if I could, I would like to be in.


I really really dislike Schmidt as a player (the unrepentant gunner), but yeah, he'd certainly deserve an HM as well.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 All-Time (2017)---List, voter panel, meta-thinking thre 

Post#10 » by Colbinii » Wed Jun 7, 2017 11:48 pm

Clyde Frazier wrote:Image


Are we posting selfies?
tsherkin wrote:Locked due to absence of adult conversation.


penbeast0 wrote:Guys, if you don't have anything to say, don't post.


E-Balla wrote:LeBron is Jeff George.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 All-Time (2017)---List, voter panel, meta-thinking thre 

Post#11 » by trex_8063 » Thu Jun 8, 2017 12:55 am

Quot, CF, and Colbini: you're in.
All-Time NE Fantasy Team
PG-Chauncey Billups (06-08)/Terry Porter (91-93)
SG-George Gervin (78-80)/Danny Green
SF-R. Barry (67-70)/Bruce Bowen (04-06)
PF-Ho Grant (92-94)/D. Cowens (74-76)
C-D. Robinson (94-96)/Kevin Willis (92-94)
Bill Sharman (coach)
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Re: RealGM Top 100 All-Time (2017)---List, voter panel, meta-thinking thre 

Post#12 » by trex_8063 » Thu Jun 8, 2017 1:02 am

janmagn wrote:Definetly interested in voting


As you're a relative unknown on the PC forum, I'm going to request you participate in the discussion without the privilege of a counted vote for a trial period (perhaps the first ~2-4 threads of the project). As indicated in OP, this is so you can demonstrate to us genuine interest and commitment, earnest intent, capable knowledge and ability to provide relevant content or perspective.

Project will likely begin within a week from the finish of the NBA finals.
All-Time NE Fantasy Team
PG-Chauncey Billups (06-08)/Terry Porter (91-93)
SG-George Gervin (78-80)/Danny Green
SF-R. Barry (67-70)/Bruce Bowen (04-06)
PF-Ho Grant (92-94)/D. Cowens (74-76)
C-D. Robinson (94-96)/Kevin Willis (92-94)
Bill Sharman (coach)
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Re: RealGM Top 100 All-Time (2017)---List, voter panel, meta-thinking thre 

Post#13 » by Texas Chuck » Thu Jun 8, 2017 2:39 am

I'd like a vote and I assume I'm tenured? Might take me a few days but I will definitely post in the criteria thread well before this gets up and running.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 All-Time (2017)---List, voter panel, meta-thinking thre 

Post#14 » by trex_8063 » Thu Jun 8, 2017 2:54 am

Texas Chuck wrote:I'd like a vote and I assume I'm tenured? Might take me a few days but I will definitely post in the criteria thread well before this gets up and running.


I don't like your attitude one bit, and I'm not sure you should be allowed in. :wink:
All-Time NE Fantasy Team
PG-Chauncey Billups (06-08)/Terry Porter (91-93)
SG-George Gervin (78-80)/Danny Green
SF-R. Barry (67-70)/Bruce Bowen (04-06)
PF-Ho Grant (92-94)/D. Cowens (74-76)
C-D. Robinson (94-96)/Kevin Willis (92-94)
Bill Sharman (coach)
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Re: RealGM Top 100 All-Time (2017)---List, voter panel, meta-thinking thre 

Post#15 » by drza » Thu Jun 8, 2017 3:22 am

Can I play?
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Re: RealGM Top 100 All-Time (2017)---List, voter panel, meta-thinking thre 

Post#16 » by Dr Spaceman » Thu Jun 8, 2017 3:25 am

I want to support this probject any way I can. But guaranteeing I will have free time to post in every thread, or even the vast majority of them, is something I can't commit to for an 8 month project, and my participation has fallen by the way side in RealGM projects past. My life right now is particularly unpredictable and so this seems like a daunting commitment.

Maybe the best role for me would be to abstain from voting and simply participate in the discussion when I can.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 All-Time (2017)---List, voter panel, meta-thinking thre 

Post#17 » by drza » Thu Jun 8, 2017 3:37 am

Dr Spaceman wrote:I want to support this probject any way I can. But guaranteeing I will have free time to post in every thread, or even the vast majority of them, is something I can't commit to for an 8 month project, and my participation has fallen by the way side in RealGM projects past. My life right now is particularly unpredictable and so this seems like a daunting commitment.

Maybe the best role for me would be to abstain from voting and simply participate in the discussion when I can.


I'm right there with you with the unpredictable life style changing my availability. It's not my call to make for you, but I'd think in a project 8 months long, a lot of people will have times that they can and times that they can't be around. For someone like you that knows your stuff, I'd think any discussion would be great and any vote would be appreciated. But, that's just my 2 cents
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Re: RealGM Top 100 All-Time (2017)---List, voter panel, meta-thinking thre 

Post#18 » by trex_8063 » Thu Jun 8, 2017 3:53 am

drza and Dr Spaceman - participate when and in what way you can. Happy to have both your voices in it.
All-Time NE Fantasy Team
PG-Chauncey Billups (06-08)/Terry Porter (91-93)
SG-George Gervin (78-80)/Danny Green
SF-R. Barry (67-70)/Bruce Bowen (04-06)
PF-Ho Grant (92-94)/D. Cowens (74-76)
C-D. Robinson (94-96)/Kevin Willis (92-94)
Bill Sharman (coach)
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Re: RealGM Top 100 All-Time (2017)---List, voter panel, meta-thinking thre 

Post#19 » by Texas Chuck » Thu Jun 8, 2017 3:57 am

trex_8063 wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:I'd like a vote and I assume I'm tenured? Might take me a few days but I will definitely post in the criteria thread well before this gets up and running.


I don't like your attitude one bit, and I'm not sure you should be allowed in. :wink:



There went my plan to sneak JJ Barea onto the list in the late 80's.... If only I had better concealed my love affair.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 All-Time (2017)---List, voter panel, meta-thinking thre 

Post#20 » by Dr Spaceman » Thu Jun 8, 2017 4:13 am

trex_8063 wrote:drza and Dr Spaceman - participate when and in what way you can. Happy to have both your voices in it.


Cool. Put me in the pool then. Thabks
“I’m not the fastest guy on the court, but I can dictate when the race begins.”

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