RealGM Top 100 All-Time (2017)

[Owly]

This [originally conceived for responding in 93 vote thread] isn't really the place to argue it ... whilst it hasn't (iirc) been used as much as for previous projects, the "RealGM Top 100 All-Time (2017)---List, voter panel & sign-up, convo" thread would probably be the place for discussions not pertaining to the present spot being debated [note: Decided to move this response there].

Dolph Schayes may have done great things for the sports [sic], but in a player vs. player comparison he would lose to most players today. He wasn't even top 5 in his day let alone top 100 all time

A curious thing to say about a player who has ...
Led the league in Win Shares,
Led the league in WS/48
3 times finished top 5 in MVP shares (despite the accolade not existing for the first six years of his NBA career - he didn't win the NBL MVP in rookie year, Don Otten claimed that).
6 times All-NBA First Team
7 times top 5 (actually always top 4) in PER (not available for first two NBA years or his NBL year)
8 times top 5 in Win Shares (not available for NBL year)
6 times top 5 (actually always top 4) in WS/48 (not available for first two NBA years or his NBL year).

Is there anyone else with this sort of resume who you think "wasn't even top 5 in his day"?
It would perhaps be easier to discuss if you clarified the five players you have above him and, I suppose, what you mean by "his day".

[JermaineOYea]

Wow, what a fantastic thread. Whew, I truly love RealGM!

Owly and Outside, you guys really impressed me on that last page. Kudos!

[KidPistol]

Might be a bit biased towards internationals but I'm sorry, Oscar Schmidt deserves to be at least top 75 on this list.

[Clyde Frazier]

Might be a bit biased towards internationals but I'm sorry, Oscar Schmidt deserves to be at least top 75 on this list.

Per the rules in the original post:

This top 100 list is to comprise the greatest in all of BAA/NBA/ABA history (EDIT: you may also consider NBL as far back as '47, though I imagine Mikan is the only individual for whom this consideration applies).

Therefore Oscar Schmidt didn't qualify.

[Ugalde]

So the consensus is LeBron is top 3? Wow I wouldn’t have guessed that.

[Mulhollanddrive]

Are we doing this again this off-season?

[Clyde Frazier]

Are we doing this again this off-season?

The last few have been done every 3 years. See original post for the history here:

viewtopic.php?t=1573442

[SactoKingsFan]

Are we doing this again this off-season?

We just finished the most recent Top 100 a couple months ago. The peaks project will be due for a update soon.

Sent from my Essential PH-1 using Tapatalk

[FlyingArrow]

Is there a similar thread for a boardwide vote on current top 20 or top 50 or whatever?

[penbeast0]

Many but they change regularly so we don't sticky them.

[RoyceDa59]

I'm probably way late to the party, but how in gods name is Dwight Howard next to Paul Pierce, and above Pau Gasol, Cousy, Ray Allen, Westbrook, Harden, Iverson, Carter, Dominique..... ?

[Texas Chuck]

I'm probably way late to the party, but how in gods name is Dwight Howard next to Paul Pierce, and above Pau Gasol, Cousy, Ray Allen, Westbrook, Harden, Iverson, Carter, Dominique..... ?

I'm not arguing specifically for him over any of these players without putting some thought into it, but the obvious answer is that defensive impact matters too and he crushes all of those players at that end.

[Owly]

I'm probably way late to the party, but how in gods name is Dwight Howard next to Paul Pierce, and above Pau Gasol, Cousy, Ray Allen, Westbrook, Harden, Iverson, Carter, Dominique..... ?

Advice: Look at the thread he was voted in on. If the participants did it right, the hope and idea is that the discussion should be more valuable than the rankings. Read up and see where you agree and disagree. Maybe you find a new angle, maybe you come to the conclusion that the voting system didn't get enough data and Howard didn't represent the "real" will of the participants. But the thread really is the place to look.

1st glance guess based on those names: Howard had a string of years where he was perceived as plausibly or in genuine conversation as the leagues best (or 2nd best) player (MVP shares might give a very rough approximate of this, RealGM PoY shares too). Gasol, Allen, Carter and Dominique weren't ever considered as such. The rest would have had less years amongst the elite, concerns about whether they were really that good (Cousy, Iverson), concerns about era (Cousy) etc.

A final note is that in evaluating Howard it would be easy to be overcome by recency/availability bias. The recent, middling, seasons are probably what is most present in our minds when we think about Howard now. And with that in mind look at the 2014 project, where Howard ranks 43rd, so (to the extent they are comparable, and voters would have changed for the different years), Howard wasn't really seen as adding any value in 2015, 2016 or 2017. Now one might think information gleaned in the last few years damages ones perceptions of those earlier years or disagree with the earlier rankings too. To me it seems based on those two ranks people bought in to Howard having a not insignificant spell as an elite player, and that's what put him there. But as before, check the thread.

[RoyceDa59]

I'm probably way late to the party, but how in gods name is Dwight Howard next to Paul Pierce, and above Pau Gasol, Cousy, Ray Allen, Westbrook, Harden, Iverson, Carter, Dominique..... ?

I'm not arguing specifically for him over any of these players without putting some thought into it, but the obvious answer is that defensive impact matters too and he crushes all of those players at that end.

While I agree, I also believe leadership and locker room impact needs to be considered, and Howard has a history of tearing teams apart with his childish behaviour.

I'd take Harden and Westbrook above him easily, as both are clearly next level superstars (both have won MVP's). Ray Allen in my opinion would fit better in today's game than Howard and had a longer, more influential prime. Pau Gasol is clearly a better overall bigman both peak and career, with a much more polished game and resume. I don't know how anyone could take Dwight Howard over Pau Gasol when trying to build a winning team. Iverson won an MVP and as his peak was in another level that Howard never reached. Carter and Dominique had some flaws so those two I'll let slide.

Meh, Howard is about 20 spots too high.

[Missing Rings]

I'm probably way late to the party, but how in gods name is Dwight Howard next to Paul Pierce, and above Pau Gasol, Cousy, Ray Allen, Westbrook, Harden, Iverson, Carter, Dominique..... ?

I'm not arguing specifically for him over any of these players without putting some thought into it, but the obvious answer is that defensive impact matters too and he crushes all of those players at that end.

While I agree, I also believe leadership and locker room impact needs to be considered, and Howard has a history of tearing teams apart with his childish behaviour.

I'd take Harden and Westbrook above him easily, as both are clearly next level superstars (both have won MVP's). Ray Allen in my opinion would fit better in today's game than Howard and had a longer, more influential prime. Pau Gasol is clearly a better overall bigman both peak and career, with a much more polished game and resume. I don't know how anyone could take Dwight Howard over Pau Gasol when trying to build a winning team. Iverson won an MVP and as his peak was in another level that Howard never reached. Carter and Dominique had some flaws so those two I'll let slide.

Meh, Howard is about 20 spots too high.

On the contrary there is oodles of data pointing to Howard being far more impactful than Gasol, Allen, and Iverson.

[trex_8063]

I'm not arguing specifically for him over any of these players without putting some thought into it, but the obvious answer is that defensive impact matters too and he crushes all of those players at that end.

While I agree, I also believe leadership and locker room impact needs to be considered, and Howard has a history of tearing teams apart with his childish behaviour.

I'd take Harden and Westbrook above him easily, as both are clearly next level superstars (both have won MVP's). Ray Allen in my opinion would fit better in today's game than Howard and had a longer, more influential prime. Pau Gasol is clearly a better overall bigman both peak and career, with a much more polished game and resume. I don't know how anyone could take Dwight Howard over Pau Gasol when trying to build a winning team. Iverson won an MVP and as his peak was in another level that Howard never reached. Carter and Dominique had some flaws so those two I'll let slide.

Meh, Howard is about 20 spots too high.

On the contrary there is oodles of data pointing to Howard being far more impactful than Gasol, Allen, and Iverson.

Agree most available impact data fairly consistently paints Howard as a more impactful player in his prime than Gasol and Iverson; ahead of Ray Allen somewhat depends on source: I have a spreadsheet that used the PI RAPM data from the now defunkd GotBuckets? site for the years '08-'14, and used shutupandjam's RAPM for '01-'07.......that data places Allen a little ahead of Howard in impact. JE's data places Howard a little ahead.

In response to Royce----since you mentioned MVP's for Harden and Westbrook----bear in mind that project is reflective of where things stood in '17......'18 hadn't yet happened for any of the players involved.

[Jaivl]

I'm not arguing specifically for him over any of these players without putting some thought into it, but the obvious answer is that defensive impact matters too and he crushes all of those players at that end.

While I agree, I also believe leadership and locker room impact needs to be considered, and Howard has a history of tearing teams apart with his childish behaviour.

I'd take Harden and Westbrook above him easily, as both are clearly next level superstars (both have won MVP's). Ray Allen in my opinion would fit better in today's game than Howard and had a longer, more influential prime. Pau Gasol is clearly a better overall bigman both peak and career, with a much more polished game and resume. I don't know how anyone could take Dwight Howard over Pau Gasol when trying to build a winning team. Iverson won an MVP and as his peak was in another level that Howard never reached. Carter and Dominique had some flaws so those two I'll let slide.

Meh, Howard is about 20 spots too high.

On the contrary there is oodles of data pointing to Howard being far more impactful than Gasol, Allen, and Iverson.

I think there's always a bit of projection involved regarding active players. Don't really think Howard has added more value than those mentioned even if his 3-year peak is solidly better than theirs.

Might be a bit biased towards internationals but I'm sorry, Oscar Schmidt deserves to be at least top 75 on this list.

Even if he were eligible, he was a (close to GOAT-level) shooter with no defense or creation whatsoever, who played on third-rate teams all his career. And on the international stage he was usually slowed down against good teams (excepting '88 URSS).

Don't think he is close to the tier of players like McAdoo, Wallace, Bosh... Honestly he looks more like a better-shooting Ryan Anderson.

[migya]

Can't believe how low valued Iverson is. He is definately top 25.

[Jaivl]

Can't believe how low valued Iverson is. He is definately top 25.

Make a thread then and let's argue it.

[migya]

Can't believe how low valued Iverson is. He is definately top 25.

Make a thread then and let's argue it.

You can make it if you want. You can make statements of you like but Iverson looks very undervalued alltime.