trex_8063 wrote:twolves97 wrote:Also Mikan should NOT go here or anywhere in the 20s. Era usually isn't a huge deal for me but the weakness of Mikan's era really shouldn't be overlooked. I just don't think he was a good basketball player. I don't think he could play D-1 basketball today. I think I'm probably a better player than he was and my best scholarship offer was from Chicago State (I didn't go there I go to Duke University go Blue Devils).
Although I’m not voting for Mikan yet, I’m disappointed in the sentiment here, especially the bolded segment, which imo denotes skewed or incomplete consideration of all factors.
I realize there’s a range of possibilities as far as how good Mikan could be in a modern context, but I’m repeatedly upset by how casually leap to the absolute lowest potential on the spectrum, as you have done here.
I mean let’s look at what we have with Mikan, starting with the physical….
SizeThe WCA archive lists Mikan as 6’9” without shoes (same height as Dwight Howard---who is listed at 6’11”), though I could swear I remember reading somewhere that Mikan measured 6’9.5” without shoes, but I can’t remember the source. Other sources…...
There’s
this famous SI cover where [old man, possibly marginally shrunk] Mikan looks only about 3” shorter than Kareem (who’s listed at 7’2”).
And there’s
this (post #13) photo in which he looks not even 2” shorter than Wilt (who was listed as 7’1”, and iirc was known to be 7’0.5” without shoes).
In short, Mikan would
easily be listed 6’11” in today’s league; slim chance he might even be listed 7’0” (especially if we believe things like nutrition of the time and more exposure to second-hand smoke perhaps marginally stunted his growth in his own time).
His weight during his playing career in the BAA/NBA ranged between ~245-260 lbs (249 lbs specifically noted at training camp prior to ‘54 season).
Bear in mind this is during an era BEFORE weight training was facilitated or encouraged (in fact, it was even active DIScouraged on the assumption that extra muscle mass would both effect one’s shot and interfere with endurance). And that’s not like fat weight, as you can see from any number of photos you can find on a Google search (I'd post some I've on file, but Photobucket has changed their 3rd party hosting recently, which sucks).
Suffice to say that was his reasonably lean body weight, just on the basis of his natural physique, which doesn’t look too shabby in those photos (broad shouldered, lean but wiry arms, strong-looking legs).
Other Athletic AttributesCombine those above specs with what we see just in the first minute or so of this scouting film by WCA:
Is he any slower or less fleet of foot than players like Brook or Robin Lopez, Joakim Noah, Kendrick Perkins, or the final 6-8 seasons of Tim Duncan? I don’t think so.
He appears substantially MORE athletic [faster, less gravity-bound] than someone like Bill Laimbeer, who was listed at 6’11”, but I saw Laimbeer in person recently at the airport, and I’ll eat my hat if he was taller than 6’9” or
maybe 6’9.5” (wearing thin-soled dress-casual loafers); he’s not THAT old, I doubt he could have shrunk much. I saw him next to Herb Williams (who was listed 6’10” in his career), and Herb looked exactly the same height or possibly even ~0.5” taller.
And Laimbeer had a nearly 14-year career (4-time All-Star) in the semi-recent era, because he was smart, tough and physical, and could shoot.
In summary, there doesn’t appear to be any overt physical limitation which would prevent him from being capable of a successful NBA career in a more modern context.
Let’s talk skills….You said you think you’re better, and from a modern standard of skillset, you’re likely right. But I’ll ask you: how do you think you came to be better?
Did you or did you not have exposure to modern stars (via TV, NBA TV, YouTube, etc) growing up?
Did you or did you not try to ape what those stars were doing as you were developing your game (shot mechanics, specific moves, etc)?
Were all of your peer doing the same thing, such that you had that kind of constant feedback loop, and all challenging and pushing each other in developing these aped skills?
Did you or did you not learn drills from coaches or peers to practice skills which either were not allowed or otherwise had not yet even been pioneered in Mikan’s day?
I’ve not seen you play, but I’m willing to bet you’re not an extreme outlier---in
this era----in your basketball skills. There are likely thousands (or perhaps tens of thousands) of other kids and young men around the globe who are as good or better than you and basically every single basketball skill. Otherwise (and I do NOT mean this as an insult, but rather just pointing out the factoid that you shared as a means of illustrating the point) you’d have received a scholarship from something bigger Chicago State.
So, given the skills you possess are so accessible to thousands of young players today, I think it’s pure generational arrogance and vanity to assume a prior generation
couldn’t also find these skills just as accessible if they were afforded all the same influences you were…..particularly one who seemed as far ahead of the basketball curve as Mikan appeared to be at the time.
And just as a suggestion that it wasn’t ONLY his size that enabled him to dominate, just going to list a few other similar sized chaps from the same era, and what kind of players they were:
George Mikan (‘49-’54, ‘56) 23.1 ppg/13.4 rpg/2.8 apg @ 48.3% TS
DRtg available beginning in ‘51; from ‘51 to ‘54 he anchored three #1 defenses and one #2 defense (as good as -7.6 rDRTG---in the running for most dominant ever, proportionally; in the two years prior to DRTG, Lakers were #1 and #2 respectively in pts/allowed).
Ed Mikan (‘49-’54) 6’8”, 230 lbs
6.7 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 0.9 apg @ 38.3% TS
Robert Hahn (played 10 games in ‘50) 6’10”, 240 lbs
1.0 ppg, 0.1 apg @ 31.1% TS
Arnie Risen (‘49-’58) 6’9”, 200 lbs
12.0 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 1.7 apg @ 45.6% TS
4x All-Star
Mike Novak (‘49-’50, ‘54; though came into league at age 33) 6’9”, 219 lbs
3.4 ppg, 1.4 apg @ 35.3% TS
Bill Henry (‘49-’50) 6’9”, 215 lbs
6.5 ppg, 1.1 apg @ 41.2% TS
John Mahnken (‘47-’53) 6’8”, 220 lbs
5.8 ppg, 2.9 rpg, 1.3 apg @ 30.9% TS
Dolph Schayes (‘50-’64) **6’8”, 220 lbs (this is odd: is from bbref, but I KNOW I once saw them list him as 195 lbs, and I believe just 6’7”; perhaps a recent correction, though it certainly would make more sense of his rebounding numbers)
18.5 ppg, 12.1 rpg,
3.1 apg @
48.8% TS12x All-Star
12x All-NBA (6x 1st)
Kleggie Hermsen (‘47-’53) 6’9”, 225 lbs
9.3 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 1.3 apg @ 35.6% TS
George Nostrand (‘47-’50) 6’8”, 195 lbs
8.2 ppg, 0.8 apg @ 34.9% TS
Jerry Fowler (6 games played in ‘52) 6’8”, 230 lbs
1.5 ppg, 1.7 rpg, 0.3 apg @ 30.5% TS
Jim Slaughter (lasted 28 games TOTAL in ‘52) 6’11”, 210 lbs
5.3 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 0.9 apg @ 37.7% TS
Ed Macauley (‘50-’59) 6’8”, 185 lbs
17.5 ppg, 7.5 rpg,
3.2 apg @
52.2% TSBill Roberts (‘49-’50) 6’9”, 210 lbs
3.5 ppg, 0.6 apg @ 37.8% TS
Red Rocha (‘48-’53, ‘55-’57) 6’9”, 185 lbs
10.9 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 2.0 apg @ 44.1% TS
2x All-Star
Ed Peterson (‘50-’51) 6’9”, 220 lbs
7.0 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 0.9 apg @ 43.6% TS
Don Otten (‘50-’53) 6’10”, 240 lbs
10.5 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 1.4 apg @ 47.5% TS
Connie Simmons (‘47-’56) 6’8”, 222 lbs
9.8 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 1.6 apg @ 40.8% TS
Neil Johnston (‘52-’59) 6’8”, 210 lbs
19.4 ppg, 11.3 rpg, 2.5 apg @
53.4% TS6x All-Star
5x All-NBA (4x 1st)
Chick Halbert (‘47-’51) 6’9”, 225 lbs
8.8 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 1.4 apg @ 38.3% TS
Ron Livingstone (‘50-’51) 6’10”, 220 lbs
6.3 ppg, (4.7 rpg), 1.9 apg @ 34.6% TS
Noble Jorgensen (‘47, ‘50-’53) 6’9”, 228 lbs
8.8 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 1.2 apg @ 44.1% TS
Harry Boykoff (‘50-’51) 6’10”, 225 lbs
10.1 ppg, (4.6 rpg), 1.9 apg @ 46.3% TS
John Pritchard (7 games in ‘50) 6’9”, 220 lbs
3.1 ppg, 1.1 apg @ 32.5% TS
Jim Browne (35 games played in ‘49-’50) 6’10”, 235 lbs
1.4 ppg, 0.2 apg @ 39.8% TS
Larry Foust (‘51-’62) 6’9”, 215 lbs
13.7 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 1.7 apg @
48.5% TS8x All-Star
2x All-NBA
Chuck Share (‘52-’60) 6’11”, 235 lbs
8.3 ppg, 8.4 rpg, 1.4 apg @
48.8% TSHerb Scherer (played 32 games in ‘51-’52) 6’9”, 212 lbs
3.6 ppg, 2.4 rpg, 0.7 apg @ 33.7% TS
So.........that’s a whole lot of guys who are at least within 2” of Mikan, including 7 guys who were as tall or taller (although no one quite as heavy as Mikan; but that again speaks to his somewhat burly natural physique); few of them within 5-10 lbs. Yet outside of Schayes and Johnston, none of them even
remotely approached George Mikan’s degree of dominance. In fact, most were basically average players in the league of that time, and a handful (Jim Browne, Robert Hahn, John Pritchard, Jerry Fowler, etc) were downright scrubs who washed out of the league very quickly.
