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Imagine if Wilt was allowed to travel and to commit offensive fouls. Duncan is not LeBron. Duncan does not travel routinely but he does play in an era when traveling is not called. Duncan is not Shaq. Duncan does not knock people over. Wilt could put the ball on the floor but was careful to not travel because traveling was enforced when he played. Wilt could knock people over but chose not to because he did not want to be perceived as an unskilled giant and because offensive fouls were called in his era.

Wilt can't hit a jump shot. Wilt is a horrible free throw shooter.

Wilt is stronger than Duncan, bigger than Duncan, as agile as Duncan and Young versions of Wilt are faster than Duncan.

Wilt is just plain a better player than Duncan but you might see hack a Wilt.

I respect Wilt Chamberlain's contributions to NBA history. However, when I talk players I don't want to confer in hypotheticals. Who knows what Wilt can do in an extended period in an ideal situation? I know what Tim Duncan will do.

And that is build an NBA dynasty on the basis of the fundamentals.

Dr Spaceman wrote:

rebirthoftheM wrote:Wilt and it's not close IMO. Tim Duncan was utilized better for most of his career while Wilt was consistently stuck in team situations where his talents were not being utilized properly. In a vacuum though, or giving both equal access to appropriate team conditions, Wilt takes this pretty easily. Wilt showed with the Sixers in the mid 60s that he could play a brand of GOAT basketball, something Tim Duncan displayed for only one playoff championship run (03) despite being in the far more advantageous team situation. The offensive gap between the two is too large.

Wilt as was earlier noted, was a comic hero. The stuff of legend. Don't think we'll ever see another dude in NBA history much like him again.

The only time Wilt's talents were used properly were when he was forced into that role by Alex Hannum... and Wilt twice removed himself from that situation on purpose. Wilt himself was a far, far greater barrier to his own success than were his teams.

I read the extended conversations on Wilt in the list threads. My takeaway from it, after reading the back and forth between his supporters and detractors is that while Wilt was defs a more challenging character than Duncan, and more stats driven than Duncan, he was still stuck in conditions and an era that limited him. It really was unfortunate and momentum building was rarely there for him.

I think if he had Phil Jackson to coach him during his prime, we'd see historical impact from him, far outstripping TD. PJ in interviews described how he used to motivate Shaq and I have no doubt it'd work on Wilt also, given the two had some strong similarities mentally speaking (though Shaq embraced his brute nature, unlike Wilt who unfortunatelu played in an extremely racist era). PJ got Shaq to play a brand of defense he rarely displayed in 00 and it was all mental coaxing.

I honestly look at Wilts career as what would have occured to MJ if Phil and Tex didnt jump on board. Coaching is absolutely vital.

Jiminy Glick wrote:

ThaRegul8r wrote:

Jiminy Glick wrote:
I just wasn't sure how you meant it, I thought you meant "act" in a bad way.

So if you weren't sure how I meant it, why did you assume I was "talking bad" about anyone from two sentences totaling barely over a dozen words? The word "act" has no inherent negative connotation typically associated with it.

You implied negative connotation through the perspective of Wilt which I disagree with. It makes Wilt look bad because your implying he wouldn't get along with Popovich's coaching style, it can actually be taken the other way as well. Anyways, I don't think Wilt would mind having Popovich as his coach.

I'm not sure any superstar outside of Duncan and a few small number of others would do well with Pop. The reason pop is such a good coach is that Duncan leaves his ego at the door and lets Pop yell and scream at him like a bench player, and not a super star. Duncan and Pop work due in large part to their synergy together.

Keep in mind Pop didn't have ANY nba credit when he started coaching Duncan. He was basically a rookie head coach.

dhsilv2 wrote:

Jiminy Glick wrote:

ThaRegul8r wrote:
So if you weren't sure how I meant it, why did you assume I was "talking bad" about anyone from two sentences totaling barely over a dozen words? The word "act" has no inherent negative connotation typically associated with it.

You implied negative connotation through the perspective of Wilt which I disagree with. It makes Wilt look bad because your implying he wouldn't get along with Popovich's coaching style, it can actually be taken the other way as well. Anyways, I don't think Wilt would mind having Popovich as his coach.

I'm not sure any superstar outside of Duncan and a few small number of others would do well with Pop. The reason pop is such a good coach is that Duncan leaves his ego at the door and lets Pop yell and scream at him like a bench player, and not a super star. Duncan and Pop work due in large part to their synergy together.

Keep in mind Pop didn't have ANY nba credit when he started coaching Duncan. He was basically a rookie head coach.

Popovich is tough on his players but he is also extremely funny and friendly with them. But being tough on your players and calling out their mistakes and having standards of perfection is what a coach is supposed to do. No one really knows if Wilt would get a long with Popovich but you can't state he wouldn't so I will just leave it at that.

Jiminy Glick wrote:

dhsilv2 wrote:

Jiminy Glick wrote:
You implied negative connotation through the perspective of Wilt which I disagree with. It makes Wilt look bad because your implying he wouldn't get along with Popovich's coaching style, it can actually be taken the other way as well. Anyways, I don't think Wilt would mind having Popovich as his coach.

I'm not sure any superstar outside of Duncan and a few small number of others would do well with Pop. The reason pop is such a good coach is that Duncan leaves his ego at the door and lets Pop yell and scream at him like a bench player, and not a super star. Duncan and Pop work due in large part to their synergy together.

Keep in mind Pop didn't have ANY nba credit when he started coaching Duncan. He was basically a rookie head coach.

Popovich is tough on his players but he is also extremely funny and friendly with them. But being tough on your players and calling out their mistakes and having standards of perfection is what a coach is supposed to do. No one really knows if Wilt would get a long with Popovich but you can't state he wouldn't so I will just leave it at that.

I get the impression that most coaches treat their stars very different from pop. I can't state anything here as a fact, but I know Duncan is considered extremely coachable, I don't get the same impression of wilt. This all being hypothetical....I'll give the edge to Duncan. That said I honestly am not sure Pop would have made it as a coach without Duncan, especially on the spurs. So at least that gives you a view of where my head is at on this.

dhsilv2 wrote:

Jiminy Glick wrote:

dhsilv2 wrote:
I'm not sure any superstar outside of Duncan and a few small number of others would do well with Pop. The reason pop is such a good coach is that Duncan leaves his ego at the door and lets Pop yell and scream at him like a bench player, and not a super star. Duncan and Pop work due in large part to their synergy together.

Keep in mind Pop didn't have ANY nba credit when he started coaching Duncan. He was basically a rookie head coach.

Popovich is tough on his players but he is also extremely funny and friendly with them. But being tough on your players and calling out their mistakes and having standards of perfection is what a coach is supposed to do. No one really knows if Wilt would get a long with Popovich but you can't state he wouldn't so I will just leave it at that.

I get the impression that most coaches treat their stars very different from pop. I can't state anything here as a fact, but I know Duncan is considered extremely coachable, I don't get the same impression of wilt. This all being hypothetical....I'll give the edge to Duncan. That said I honestly am not sure Pop would have made it as a coach without Duncan, especially on the spurs. So at least that gives you a view of where my head is at on this.

Yeah Duncan is highly coachable, Leonard and Robinson are others, I would say Kareem and Russell as well.

Popovichs coaching style would not cut it with most superstars. I wonder if he would adjust his approach having to deal with someone Shaq.

In any case, give Wilt PJ and I see him clearly outstripping Duncan. I base this on what PJ was able to do with Shaq interms of his mental approach to the game. And unlike Shaq who didnt maintain his body, Wilt treated his body like a temple. We wouldnt see the declines on the defensive end like was seen with Shaq after the 00 season (his only truly great defensive prime season).

Wilt faced a lot of turmoil in his career, some of which he created but mostly things beyond his control. I wish we got to see him in team situations that really accentuated his abilities more frequently. I suspect we'd be talking about him far more strongly in GOAT considerations if this was so. Just as we discount rings because it is intimately tied to specific team context, so to we should discount team based contexts that allow one player flourish moreso than other.

I wonder how Wilts career would have turned out if he had someone like D-Rob to mentor him..

Wilt is greater no doubt. OT tho...who do you think can contribute to the best Wilt we'll ever see? Phil? Pat? Red? Pop? Daly?

Jiminy Glick wrote:

twolves97 wrote:

Jiminy Glick wrote:Wilt, better defensive versatility. He can defend Shaq, Yao, Kareem, Robinson, and Hakeem.

Um.... litlerally no one can guard Shaq or Kareem one on one. Literally no one.

Kareem against Wilt:

12/5/1972 37 fg%
1/7/1973 47 fg%
2/25/1973 37 fg%
3/27/1973 39 fg%

And this was when Wilt was 35 and 36 years old. Wilt was a far superior player than Kareem and Shaq. He had the defensive and rebounding edge on them and was a dominate offensive player as well.

ya there is a clip from like 1972 which shows Wilt stuffing a Kareem skyhook, Kareem getting it back and doing another skyhook which Wilt stuffed again. Prob one of the few players to ever block a skyhook much less two in a row like that. At like 36 yrs old no less. At that point in his career he was really just focused on defense and rebounding though. Early on he wasn't trying that hard on defense.

I rank Duncan slightly ahead of Wilt for a number of reasons(some maybe beyond Wilt's control such as the owner wanting him to put up ridiculous stats in order to put people in the stands). At the end of the day though Duncan's consistent high level of team play, defense and solid offense for almost 20 years and 5 rings/3 fmvps puts him slightly above Wilt imo. I put them pretty much right next to each other though.

oldschooled wrote:Wilt is greater no doubt. OT tho...who do you think can contribute to the best Wilt we'll ever see? Phil? Pat? Red? Pop? Daly?

I rank duncan over him, and I think anyone with no doubt better have been at wilt games and have one sharp memory (doubt we have many left who did that). But given wilt's personality, I can't see anyone topping Phil as his coach. We all got to see plenty of wilt interviews over the years. The guy loved himself and nobody could handle that kind of ego and get better results than phil. Pop, hell no. I'm not sure about red, I can't comment fairly there. Daly to me was like a grand master chess player, he was best with multiple pieces, god I miss him as a commentator. Pat is interesting. Not the ego manager, but still likely among the best at it. He was more an x's and o'x chess master like Daly but imo not there.

Would be interesting to see a discussion on the best types of players for each of these coaches.

If Duncan could do any of these things, I'd list him above Wilt:

Average 50 ppg for an entire season
Average 20 boards per game for an entire season
Score 100 in a game
Play 48 minutes per game for an entire season
Lead the league in assists for an entire season

Otherwise, it's Wilt pretty easily.

MJ, Lebron, Kobe, Shaq, Barkley and countless other all-time greats that populate the top-25 lists are/were also "difficult players to work with" and clashed with/got coaches fired. That tends to happen when you have supremely talented, highly competitive individuals who don't win 100% of the time. I put next to zero stock in whether or not a player is a "Boy Scout" when ranking these guys.