Kevin Durant vs. Kobe Bryant

[HeartBreakKid]

Dwight Howard was recovering from surgery and quite frankly didn't wanna be there, and you could tell by his body language and effort.

So that would mean that Bryant didn't elevate his game.

Pau was seen as a fringe all star before playing with Kobe. After playing with him, he's all of a sudden seen as an all time great power forward.

[/quote][/quote]

Doesn't that just suggest that people change their opinions based on whether players win or not? Pau Gasol was largely the same player in Memphis that he was in L.A. Pau Gasol would have been HOF bound even if he never went to Los Angeles, so I'm not even sure if what you're saying is true. Gasol was never seen as a superstar or even a 2nd rate superstar even after winning his rings, he was perceived as a top 15 guy, which is what people thought he was in Memphis.


Bryant doesn't elevate bigs games any more than any other great perimeter player would. I'm not sure why people think Bryant's game is tailor made for bigs. The Lakers dominated in their championship runs because they had star power not because they were the perfect fit. Kobe Bryant and Shaquile O'Neal are hard to stop because they're both hard as hell to stop individually (and both can pass as well). Same thing with Bryant/Gasol/Odom, teams couldn't deal with the Lakers size in the late 00s because there simply were not a lot of talented bigs at the time.

[mischievous]

Doesn't that just suggest that people change their opinions based on whether players win or not? Pau Gasol was largely the same player in Memphis that he was in L.A. Pau Gasol would have been HOF bound even if he never went to Los Angeles, so I'm not even sure if what you're saying is true. Gasol was never seen as a superstar or even a 2nd rate superstar even after winning his rings, he was perceived as a top 15 guy, which is what people thought he was in Memphis.


Bryant doesn't elevate bigs games any more than any other great perimeter player would. I'm not sure why people think Bryant's game is tailor made for bigs. The Lakers dominated in their championship runs because they had star power not because they were the perfect fit. Kobe Bryant and Shaquile O'Neal are hard to stop because they're both hard as hell to stop individually (and both can pass as well). Same thing with Bryant/Gasol/Odom, teams couldn't deal with the Lakers size in the late 00s because there simply were not a lot of talented bigs at the time.

I mean, Pau definitely benefited a lot from playing with Kobe, I don't see how that can be disputed.

The point with Howard was, that isn't really a good example to use since the Lakers were just a walking disaster that season.

Maybe "elevate bigs" wasn't the right term he should've used, but he is a guy who's proven to work well with star big men.

[rebirthoftheM]

In what galaxy is Kobe a more diverse scorer than Durant?

Honestly, this thread looks like its angling towards a Kobe discrediting/bash fest, which I'm not really interested in engaging further beyond this post.

The points about Kobe elevating Gasol (and yes he did- Gasol was a much more effective offensive player next to Kobe because Kobe via his skill-set made it much easier for him on that end, something that Pau Gasol has repeated on a number of occasions, and any honest analysis would confirm. Gasol's Box score stuff in Memphis belied his actual impact on his teams offenses) or early 00s Kobe developing his skill-set with the aim of maximising their offensive partnership (something Tex Winter, you know, the actual spearhead of the triangle and assistant coach touched upon briefly when talking about a hypothetical MJ and Shaq triangle set-up) have been spoken about previously on this board. Not gonna rehash this as it's the same tiring conversations.

Having said that, I didn't say Kobe elevated Shaq. Comprehension people. Shaq was not the only big Kobe played with. But Gasol (aka the big Kobe had most chemistry with) and healthy Bynum? Most definitely so. With Bynum, all one needs to refer to is the first 35 games of the 07-08 season when the Lakers were top 3 in the West pre-Gasol, and where Bynum first broke-out to see how well Kobe's play-making abilities meshed with Bynum. Bynum was a #2 option during this 07-08 period, and in 11/12, Kobe was past-prime and had a down-year.

But going back to your point.. In the galaxy where Kobe's superior handling abilities from the perimeter, going both left and right, even against great man to man defenders, and even without another focal option to draw attention away from him allowed him to attack defenses in a plethora of ways. The threat alone opened up a universe of options. Kobe's ability to put pressure on defenses in all situations, and to be threatening in all circumstances was a big reason why he ranked out very highly on offense.

Everything you've said about Durant, other than the elite 3 point shooting, applies to Kobe, even if one might argue Durant is more efficient in many of the (I'd love to see prime for prime though with respect to playing out of the post, and the volume/efficiency gap).

Diversity of course does not necessarily mean better (and hence Shaq was a better scorer than KG despite KG being more of a diverse scorer) but the fact that Kobe could do all of stuff at a high level, plus break down defenses and put consistent pressure from 30 feet out, is something I'd prefer to build around as a GM. I think it gives the team more flexibility in the long-run. The Gasol/Kobe duo worked so well because of this.

Fyi, you might want to look at Durant Pre-Warriors volume and efficiency from 16-3 point line, and compare it to Kobe's, even during the 06/07 era where Kobe' played on teams with horrid shooting and spacing.

PS: Comparing Kobe and Durant in terms of play-making by references to assists is on the whole embarrassing. I really feel bad for someone who actually believes this is a good argument

Why didn't you just say Bryant elevated Pau Gasol's game instead of "bigs"? He didn't elevate Odom, Howard or O'Neal's games, and it doesn't make much sense to say he elevated Bynums either - Bynum had one good year and it happened on a down year for Kobe Bryant. In fact, Bynum never played with anyone else other than Kobe, so how could you compare?

Odom Pre-Gasol was not really a "big" in the traditional sense (which still applied in the mid to late 00s, unlike today's fluid concepts) and so he didn't really occur to me at all. He was more of a tweener, going between the 3 and 4 on offense and defense. He has a whole season (06) where he played big minutes at both. He almost never played the 5, even when the Lakers lost Kwame Brown and Chris Mihm to Injuries, and were compelled to run a 2nd year Bynum at the 5. Nobody really saw him as a "big" at the time, just like Shawn Marion. They were tweeners. We should not read the past through present lens.

But Odom in any case, was better every year in LA than he was in previous years with Miami/Clippers by virtue of him not having to shoulder the same offensive responsibilities and being a much better defensive player. Prior to going down with injuries in 06-07, and continuing on with his excellent play towards the end of the 06 season where he finally found his niche in the triangle, he was playing the best basketball of his career alongside Kobe, and between 08-10, he was an excellent third option. I do agree though, that the Kobe/Odom chemistry was not even close to the chemistry Kobe had with Gasol, and 08 Bynum.

As for Bynum. I am basing this on my eyes and what Bynum himself said about his earlier career. You should google his commentary on his thoughts on how Kobe impacted his game earlier on in his career v later down the track. Kobe was an excellent interior passer, and for a non-point guard, ran the screen and roll very well. Bynum in 07-08 was not a refined offensive player. He still depended a lot on other players creating shots for him. And Kobe excelled at that. The Lakers team ORTGS and win/loss record for the first 35 odd games prior to Bynum going down in 08 is a testament to this.

And by elevation, I mean Kobe was a major factor in why Gasol was a more effective offensive player in LA than he was in Memphis (and much bettee defensively by virtue of his offensive responsbilities curtailed) . This is all I mean. Effectiveness is always contextual. Not saying Kobe up-skilled Gasol or something. Gasol more or less had the same skills in Memphis.

As for Gasols perception, one only needs to look at Gasol losing out to Shawn Marion and Carmelo Anthony for all NBA team considerations and then his constant featuring in all NBA teams from his first full season in LA onwards. Gasol's prestige grew rapidly in LA. This is beyond debatable.

And if you're a fan of rapm and impact stuff...Gasol in memphis was a low impact offensive player, and defensively was a zero to a net negative, which is shocking given the coaches he had and the defensive support around him.

Oh boy. I don't know who would give me more of a headache.

The guy that practically requires a miraculous Kwame for Pau trade to save his legacy. Or the guy that joins my greatest rival AFTER I build a contender around him.

Both really low on my franchise building list.

Eh, the Lakers in 06/07 before suffering an absurd amount of of injuries (Odom missed 26 games, and Walton who was their 3rd best player, missed 22 games himself), were overachieving well beyond their talent level. They smacked your spurs twice, one on the road in a close game, lost on a game-winner by Finley on another, and also beat the red-hot Mavericks. Through 39 games, they were on pace for 55 wins. Pop was all praise at their growth, as was the rest of the NBA family. The narrative was that Kobe was going through the MJ transition stage of "trusting his teammates".

Same case with the 08 Lakers. Even prior to Gasol being traded for, they were a top 3 team in the West through 35 games, and were trending upwards. Bynum then went down, and like 10 games later, Gasol is traded for. Let's not pretend the Lakers were some marginal team pre-Gasol. They were in the hunt.

It's really good to properly account for history. Gives you real context. If your talent level is not high enough, injuries will kill your team. And that was the story of the 06-07/pre-gasol 07-08 Lakers. They really were quality teams when healthy.

And again for the record, nobody said that Kobe had special powers to play with bigs that no other great perimeter player possessed. But most certainly he outstripped Durant in this regard. The skill-set gap as it pertains to proficient playmaking is too large.

[Amare_1_Knicks]

Kobe. I think the diversity in his scoring abilities alongside his ability to facilitate from the perimeter and elavate bigmen in particular makes him a better cornerstorne than KD. I feel like as a GM I could build a championship team around Kobe more easily.

In what galaxy is Kobe a more diverse scorer than Durant? Durant's the best midrange scorer in the league, hell he has the highest midrange % in history from 2013-16 IIRC. He's the league's most efficient post scorer by a large margin. He's the league most efficient transition scorer. He's one of the best FT shooters in history in both % and volume. He's top 5 in the league in PPP on drives. He's elite spotting up. He's elite off screens. He's elite on backdoor cuts. He's elite in isolation. He's elite on the ball. He's elite off the ball. And he's a ~40% 3 point shooter.

Kobe has him beat where? In contested shot making? That would be relevant if someone were even capable of contesting Durant's release.

On top of that, Durant's TS% is 7-8% higher than Kobe's. That's about the same as the difference between the best offense in NBA history and the 2017 Orlando Magic.

As for Kobe's ability to facilitate from the perimeter...uh, what? Durant's averaged 5 assists per game from 2012-present despite playing off the ball with a ball dominant PG and 0 reliable 3 point shooters or post scorers around him prior to joining the Warriors. Kobe averaged 4.7 assists per game for his career and never more than 5.5 for a 5 year stretch despite being a guard who was far more ball dominant than Durant. He also had Shaq, Gasol, Odom, and Bynum which led to easy assist opportunities. Durant had...Kendrick Perkins? Serge Ibaka who was an "offensive threat" for all of 2 seasons in 2014 & 2016? And by offensive threat, I mean he literally couldn't score unless he was set up with an open set jumper or a dunk.

And Durant has been a much better playoff performer, particularly in the Finals, to boot. Not to mention Durant trashes Kobe in offensive and defensive versatility/portability

If you want to argue diversity of scoring, then I'm just about there with you. KD can score from anywhere, has unbelievable length/size for a perimeter player, and is other-worldly efficient as well.

What I will argue is how Kobe's offensive game translated to the post season better than any year we've seen from Durant(Outside of 2017 of course, but I simply can't and won't ignore the fact that he was playing with the two-time reigning MVP, still in his prime, the DPOY, another super explosive scorer/shooter, a sixth man candidate, and overall a team/franchise that was a well-oiled/championship caliber team before he even got there).

Typically, there was a 5%TS drop off for KD from the RS to the playoffs(2010-2016, .621% in the RS to .575%TS in the PS), whereas for Kobe there was actually a .5%TS improvement from the RS to the postseason(2006-2010) with three of those five postseason runs ending in a finals appearance/two titles.

I voted Kobe. There's an efficiency advantage to speak of for KD in the RS, but I find Kobe to be clearly the higher end postseason player. Also, I always found something to be lacking from KD in the way of leadership qualities, at least compared to some other all time greats.

[lolathon234]

If you want to argue diversity of scoring, then I'm just about there with you. KD can score from anywhere, has unbelievable length/size for a perimeter player, and is other-worldly efficient as well.

What I will argue is how Kobe's offensive game translated to the post season better than any year we've seen from Durant(Outside of 2017 of course, but I simply can't and won't ignore the fact that he was playing with the two-time reigning MVP, still in his prime, the DPOY, another super explosive scorer/shooter, a sixth man candidate, and overall a team/franchise that was a well-oiled/championship caliber team before he even got there).

Typically, there was a 5%TS drop off for KD from the RS to the playoffs(2010-2016, .621% in the RS to .575%TS in the PS), whereas for Kobe there was actually a .5%TS improvement from the RS to the postseason(2006-2010) with three of those five postseason runs ending in a finals appearance/two titles.

I voted Kobe. There's an efficiency advantage to speak of for KD in the RS, but I find Kobe to be clearly the higher end postseason player. Also, I always found something to be lacking from KD in the way of leadership qualities, at least compared to some other all time greats.

Jesus christ.

2011 RS 27.7/6.8/2.7 58.9 TS%
2011 PO 28.6/8.2/2.8 58.6 TS%

2012 RS 28.0/8.0/3.5 61.0 TS%
2012 PO 28.5/7.4/3.7 63.2 TS%

2013 RS 28.1/7.9/4.6 64.7 TS%
2013 PO 30.8/9.0/6.3 57.4 TS%

2014 RS 32.0/7.4/5.5 63.5 TS%
2014 PO 29.6/8.9/3.9 57.0 TS%

2016 RS 28.2/8.2/5.0 63.4 TS%
2016 PO 28.4/7.1/3.3 54.2 TS%

In 2013, he was forced into the role of PG after the Westbrook injury. And if you ignore the final game against Memphis where his body was clearly broken down from playing 45:30, 47:16, 42:00, 44:42, 43:13, 43:42, 42:34, 45:44, 48:19, and 48:00 in consecutive games, he averaged 33.1/10.1/6.3 60.2 TS%. Without his 2nd option. With half of those games coming against the best defense in the NBA featuring DPOY Gasol, 4th in DPOY Allen, and 2 other elite defenders in Conley/Prince. And KD had 0 help that series.
Perkins had the worst series in NBA history, posting a negative PER.
Collison was almost as bad.
Ibaka shot sub 38% from the field.
Sefalosha, the starting SG, shot 20% from 3.
22 year old Reggie Jackson was OKC's 2nd best player in the series, he averaged 13.8/6.2/3.8 and shot 21.4% from 3.
Kevin Martin averaged 11.8/2.8/1.0 on 37.0/22.2/0.0 splits after G1

But yes, let's blame Durant for a slight drop in efficiency given he was forced into playing a new role with a much heavier load facing constant double teams with no spacing and no support.

He had 2 bad games in 2014, G3 & G4 of the 1st round. After the Mr. Unreliable headline, he destroyed Memphis and posted 30.2/8.6/3.9 60.1 TS% for the rest of the playoffs.

Durant's regular season numbers are skewed by the 40 games he played without Westbrook where he averaged 35/8/7 65 TS%. Westbrook had a negative impact on KD, as shown by every game he's played without him.

2016 was his one bad playoff run. Although he still destroyed the DPOY & MVP runner up in the 2nd round for 30/8/4 60 TS%.

But Durant did post a horrendous 54.2 TS% in the 2016 playoffs. Funny enough, that's still higher than Kobe's career playoff TS(54.1%). As a matter of fact, Kobe's TS in his 5 Title runs is exactly 54.2%.

[70sFan]

Kobe. I think the diversity in his scoring abilities alongside his ability to facilitate from the perimeter and elavate bigmen in particular makes him a better cornerstorne than KD. I feel like as a GM I could build a championship team around Kobe more easily.

In what galaxy is Kobe a more diverse scorer than Durant? Durant's the best midrange scorer in the league, hell he has the highest midrange % in history from 2013-16 IIRC. He's the league's most efficient post scorer by a large margin. He's the league most efficient transition scorer. He's one of the best FT shooters in history in both % and volume. He's top 5 in the league in PPP on drives. He's elite spotting up. He's elite off screens. He's elite on backdoor cuts. He's elite in isolation. He's elite on the ball. He's elite off the ball. And he's a ~40% 3 point shooter.

Kobe has him beat where? In contested shot making? That would be relevant if someone were even capable of contesting Durant's release.

On top of that, Durant's TS% is 7-8% higher than Kobe's. That's about the same as the difference between the best offense in NBA history and the 2017 Orlando Magic.

As for Kobe's ability to facilitate from the perimeter...uh, what? Durant's averaged 5 assists per game from 2012-present despite playing off the ball with a ball dominant PG and 0 reliable 3 point shooters or post scorers around him prior to joining the Warriors. Kobe averaged 4.7 assists per game for his career and never more than 5.5 for a 5 year stretch despite being a guard who was far more ball dominant than Durant. He also had Shaq, Gasol, Odom, and Bynum which led to easy assist opportunities. Durant had...Kendrick Perkins? Serge Ibaka who was an "offensive threat" for all of 2 seasons in 2014 & 2016? And by offensive threat, I mean he literally couldn't score unless he was set up with an open set jumper or a dunk.

And Durant has been a much better playoff performer, particularly in the Finals, to boot. Not to mention Durant trashes Kobe in offensive and defensive versatility/portability

Why don't you just say that Durant is GOAT at everything? There is nothing bad with taking KD over Bryant, but to say that he's bettet at everything is just nonsense.

First of all, Kobe has similar percentage of midrange shots (slightly, very slightly worse) with higher volume. Durant from 2013-16 wasn't the best midrange shooter in NBA history. He wasn't even close to Dirk or Jordan, even stats-wise. I don't even bring players who doesn't have shooting stats like West or English.

He's not elite post scorer, definitely worse than Bryant. He's also much worse ballhandler which makes him also much less effective playmaker despite stats.

This is the time when watching games instead of only boxscores help a bit. Durant is one of the most well-rounded scorers in NBA history but so is Kobe and it's not true that KD is better at everything. They are much closer than you said and in terms of offense only, Kobe has excellent case over him.

[Amares]

Durant is better player, voting for him.

[lolathon234]

Why don't you just say that Durant is GOAT at everything? There is nothing bad with taking KD over Bryant, but to say that he's bettet at everything is just nonsense.

First of all, Kobe has similar percentage of midrange shots (slightly, very slightly worse) with higher volume. Durant from 2013-16 wasn't the best midrange shooter in NBA history. He wasn't even close to Dirk or Jordan, even stats-wise. I don't even bring players who doesn't have shooting stats like West or English.

He's not elite post scorer, definitely worse than Bryant. He's also much worse ballhandler which makes him also much less effective playmaker despite stats.

This is the time when watching games instead of only boxscores help a bit. Durant is one of the most well-rounded scorers in NBA history but so is Kobe and it's not true that KD is better at everything. They are much closer than you said and in terms of offense only, Kobe has excellent case over him.

Midrange Stats

Jordan
1997 RS 48.6% PO 40.6%
1998 RS 43.2% PO 39.8%

Kobe
2008 RS 38.8% PO 43.6%
2009 RS 42.0% PO 45.3%
2010 RS 45.1% PO 45.1%

Dirk

2006 RS 48.2% PO 45.8%
2007 RS 49.6% PO 42.2%
2008 RS 49.4% PO 41.5%

Durant
2015 RS 49.0%
2016 RS 49.5% PO-47.8%
2017 RS 47.3% PO-60.0%

[70sFan]

Why don't you just say that Durant is GOAT at everything? There is nothing bad with taking KD over Bryant, but to say that he's bettet at everything is just nonsense.

First of all, Kobe has similar percentage of midrange shots (slightly, very slightly worse) with higher volume. Durant from 2013-16 wasn't the best midrange shooter in NBA history. He wasn't even close to Dirk or Jordan, even stats-wise. I don't even bring players who doesn't have shooting stats like West or English.

He's not elite post scorer, definitely worse than Bryant. He's also much worse ballhandler which makes him also much less effective playmaker despite stats.

This is the time when watching games instead of only boxscores help a bit. Durant is one of the most well-rounded scorers in NBA history but so is Kobe and it's not true that KD is better at everything. They are much closer than you said and in terms of offense only, Kobe has excellent case over him.

Midrange Stats

Jordan
1997 RS 48.6% PO 40.6%
1998 RS 43.2% PO 39.8%

Kobe
2008 RS 38.8% PO 43.6%
2009 RS 42.0% PO 45.3%
2010 RS 45.1% PO 45.1%

Dirk

2006 RS 48.2% PO 45.8%
2007 RS 49.6% PO 42.2%
2008 RS 49.4% PO 41.5%

Durant
2015 RS 49.0%
2016 RS 49.5% PO-47.8%
2017 RS 47.3% PO-60.0%

I don't know where do you find midrange stats. I use bball reference. We also have estiminated numbers for first 3 peat MJ and he looks godly with much higher volume than Durant. Dirk also had higher volume and he had over 50% in 2011 season from midrange.

Your graph shows that Durant doesn't post up at all. Being efficient on 2 post ups PER70 doesn't make him elite post player. Kobe destroys him in volume and he based his game on post play. Durant used post only to exploit missmatches and he's not that amazing in that. It also doesn't make factor passing from the post.

As I said before, watching games instead of numbers only can help. Numbers without context are misleading.

[lolathon234]

I don't know where do you find midrange stats. I use bball reference. We also have estiminated numbers for first 3 peat MJ and he looks godly with much higher volume than Durant. Dirk also had higher volume and he had over 50% in 2011 season from midrange.

Your graph shows that Durant doesn't post up at all. Being efficient on 2 post ups PER70 doesn't make him elite post player. Kobe destroys him in volume and he based his game on post play. Durant used post only to exploit missmatches and he's not that amazing in that. It also doesn't make factor passing from the post.

As I said before, watching games instead of numbers only can help. Numbers without context are misleading.

The stats are pulled straight from NBA.com Shooting data, they're available for every season going back to 1997. And seeing as 2nd 3peat Jordan was the better midrange player, I would assume 97 would be fairly indicative of peak MJ.

As for Dirk, I picked prime Dirk...I thought 2006-2008 were considered his best seasons?

Dirk
2009 47.6%
2010 46.7%
2011 52.4%
2012 46.4%
2013 48.1%

Dirk had 1 season, 2011, that was better than KD's 2015-2017 stretch. And he shot 49.1% in the playoffs, which was by far his best high volume playoffs run, and that's nowhere near KD's best playoff runs(53.2% in 2012 and 60.0% in 2017).

Hell from 2012-2017, Durant's cumulative playoff midrange, 264-540(48.8%), is almost equal to 2011 Dirk

As for Durant's volume, LOL @ your logic. Just because he doesn't post up frequently doesn't mean he's not great at it. He's been the most efficient post scorer in the league since 2013 and nobody has come close to him in PPP. I guess Bird wasn't a great 3 point shooter since his career average was 1.9 3PA and he never averaged more than 1.3 3's in a season, right?

Durant doesn't post up more because he can easily do better than 1.1 PPP in many other forms. He's right around 1.20 PPP for all of his possessions going back to 2013.

[KD35Brah]

If you want to argue diversity of scoring, then I'm just about there with you. KD can score from anywhere, has unbelievable length/size for a perimeter player, and is other-worldly efficient as well.

What I will argue is how Kobe's offensive game translated to the post season better than any year we've seen from Durant(Outside of 2017 of course, but I simply can't and won't ignore the fact that he was playing with the two-time reigning MVP, still in his prime, the DPOY, another super explosive scorer/shooter, a sixth man candidate, and overall a team/franchise that was a well-oiled/championship caliber team before he even got there).

Typically, there was a 5%TS drop off for KD from the RS to the playoffs(2010-2016, .621% in the RS to .575%TS in the PS), whereas for Kobe there was actually a .5%TS improvement from the RS to the postseason(2006-2010) with three of those five postseason runs ending in a finals appearance/two titles.

I voted Kobe. There's an efficiency advantage to speak of for KD in the RS, but I find Kobe to be clearly the higher end postseason player. Also, I always found something to be lacking from KD in the way of leadership qualities, at least compared to some other all time greats.

Jesus christ.

2011 RS 27.7/6.8/2.7 58.9 TS%
2011 PO 28.6/8.2/2.8 58.6 TS%

2012 RS 28.0/8.0/3.5 61.0 TS%
2012 PO 28.5/7.4/3.7 63.2 TS%

2013 RS 28.1/7.9/4.6 64.7 TS%
2013 PO 30.8/9.0/6.3 57.4 TS%

2014 RS 32.0/7.4/5.5 63.5 TS%
2014 PO 29.6/8.9/3.9 57.0 TS%

2016 RS 28.2/8.2/5.0 63.4 TS%
2016 PO 28.4/7.1/3.3 54.2 TS%

In 2013, he was forced into the role of PG after the Westbrook injury. And if you ignore the final game against Memphis where his body was clearly broken down from playing 45:30, 47:16, 42:00, 44:42, 43:13, 43:42, 42:34, 45:44, 48:19, and 48:00 in consecutive games, he averaged 33.1/10.1/6.3 60.2 TS%. Without his 2nd option. With half of those games coming against the best defense in the NBA featuring DPOY Gasol, 4th in DPOY Allen, and 2 other elite defenders in Conley/Prince. And KD had 0 help that series.
Perkins had the worst series in NBA history, posting a negative PER.
Collison was almost as bad.
Ibaka shot sub 38% from the field.
Sefalosha, the starting SG, shot 20% from 3.
22 year old Reggie Jackson was OKC's 2nd best player in the series, he averaged 13.8/6.2/3.8 and shot 21.4% from 3.
Kevin Martin averaged 11.8/2.8/1.0 on 37.0/22.2/0.0 splits after G1

But yes, let's blame Durant for a slight drop in efficiency given he was forced into playing a new role with a much heavier load facing constant double teams with no spacing and no support.

He had 2 bad games in 2014, G3 & G4 of the 1st round. After the Mr. Unreliable headline, he destroyed Memphis and posted 30.2/8.6/3.9 60.1 TS% for the rest of the playoffs.

Durant's regular season numbers are skewed by the 40 games he played without Westbrook where he averaged 35/8/7 65 TS%. Westbrook had a negative impact on KD, as shown by every game he's played without him.

2016 was his one bad playoff run. Although he still destroyed the DPOY & MVP runner up in the 2nd round for 30/8/4 60 TS%.

But Durant did post a horrendous 54.2 TS% in the 2016 playoffs. Funny enough, that's still higher than Kobe's career playoff TS(54.1%). As a matter of fact, Kobe's TS in his 5 Title runs is exactly 54.2%.

Even in the 2016 playoffs, after the bad Dallas series he played 2 10 SRS teams with 67 and 73 wins, who were the best and 2nd best defense in the league. He averaged 29ppg(57%TS), 7rpg, and 3apg against Iggy, Danny Green, and the DPOY Kawhi along with playing elite defense.

[rebirthoftheM]

He's not elite post scorer, definitely worse than Bryant. He's also much worse ballhandler which makes him also much less effective playmaker despite stats.

This is the time when watching games instead of only boxscores help a bit. Durant is one of the most well-rounded scorers in NBA history but so is Kobe and it's not true that KD is better at everything. They are much closer than you said and in terms of offense only, Kobe has excellent case over him.

To be honest, even if you look at the box scores a little closer, there are strong indicators of the play-making gap (even if one wants to ignore the obvious, including differences in quality of passes and assists). In the PS, when the defenses tighten up, and facing top 10 defenses, Durant 11-16 AST/TO ratio falls off the cliff. In fact, he unsurprisingly is barely above 1:1, and averages more ToS than 01-09 Bryant against top 10 teams, despite handling the ball far far less. Even when he took on primary play-making duties, his box score stuff was not at all impressive as a play-maker. And the assist gap generally speaking is also too large. The gap becomes more pronounced when you consider that the triangle tends to promote better distribution of assists among the whole team, hence you see Jackson's teams tending to do pretty well in total team assists over the years despite rarely possessing high volume assists dudes (and why Gary Payton lost his mind in LA. His game was curtailed).

I do agree with the idea though that OKC was not the optimal situation for Durant's ability to elevate players around him for a variety of reasons. But his primary asset on offense is scoring, with his play-making abilities being deficient for an elite wing. This itself would limit his offensive ceiling, and why you'd take a number of guys on offense over him.

[Theverdad]

Scoring wise it is not particularly close. Durant is a much better and more consistent scorer and he is better at midrange shooting,attacking the basket,3 point shooting,transition,attacking the rim,free throw shooting and getting to the line.
I don't think there is a huge gap between Kobe's and Durant's playmaking ability,specially because Kobe is a Guard and Durant is a forward.
Defensively Durant is simply more valueable.
Durant has been far more consistent than Kobe in the playoffs and a way better finals performer
The only argument that anyone mighy have for Kobe are intangibles like "mamba mentality" which stadistically is a myth but for some reason Kobe was given the clutch title

[1993Playoffs]

Kd is clearly the more effective scorer

[Fundamentals21]

Eh, the Lakers in 06/07 before suffering an absurd amount of of injuries (Odom missed 26 games, and Walton who was their 3rd best player, missed 22 games himself), were overachieving well beyond their talent level. They smacked your spurs twice, one on the road in a close game, lost on a game-winner by Finley on another, and also beat the red-hot Mavericks. Through 39 games, they were on pace for 55 wins. Pop was all praise at their growth, as was the rest of the NBA family. The narrative was that Kobe was going through the MJ transition stage of "trusting his teammates".

Same case with the 08 Lakers. Even prior to Gasol being traded for, they were a top 3 team in the West through 35 games, and were trending upwards. Bynum then went down, and like 10 games later, Gasol is traded for. Let's not pretend the Lakers were some marginal team pre-Gasol. They were in the hunt.

It's really good to properly account for history. Gives you real context. If your talent level is not high enough, injuries will kill your team. And that was the story of the 06-07/pre-gasol 07-08 Lakers. They really were quality teams when healthy.

And again for the record, nobody said that Kobe had special powers to play with bigs that no other great perimeter player possessed. But most certainly he outstripped Durant in this regard. The skill-set gap as it pertains to proficient playmaking is too large.

....

Are you actually arguing against Kobe being a Diva? Kobe went into the parking lot and ratted out his GM for not trading Andrew Bynum for Jason Kidd. This at age 27, with all the time in the world to gain maturity. His antics were wildly introlerable save for the finest run management and one of the GOAT coaches. From the season he was drafted to the season he retired, he did nothing to change this perception. Nothing.

[rebirthoftheM]

Eh, the Lakers in 06/07 before suffering an absurd amount of of injuries (Odom missed 26 games, and Walton who was their 3rd best player, missed 22 games himself), were overachieving well beyond their talent level. They smacked your spurs twice, one on the road in a close game, lost on a game-winner by Finley on another, and also beat the red-hot Mavericks. Through 39 games, they were on pace for 55 wins. Pop was all praise at their growth, as was the rest of the NBA family. The narrative was that Kobe was going through the MJ transition stage of "trusting his teammates".

Same case with the 08 Lakers. Even prior to Gasol being traded for, they were a top 3 team in the West through 35 games, and were trending upwards. Bynum then went down, and like 10 games later, Gasol is traded for. Let's not pretend the Lakers were some marginal team pre-Gasol. They were in the hunt.

It's really good to properly account for history. Gives you real context. If your talent level is not high enough, injuries will kill your team. And that was the story of the 06-07/pre-gasol 07-08 Lakers. They really were quality teams when healthy.

And again for the record, nobody said that Kobe had special powers to play with bigs that no other great perimeter player possessed. But most certainly he outstripped Durant in this regard. The skill-set gap as it pertains to proficient playmaking is too large.

....

Are you actually arguing against Kobe being a Diva? Kobe went into the parking lot and ratted out his GM for not trading Andrew Bynum for Jason Kidd. This at age 27, with all the time in the world to gain maturity. His antics were wildly introlerable save for the finest run management and one of the GOAT coaches. From the season he was drafted to the season he retired, he did nothing to change this perception. Nothing.

That wasn't my point, though as is the case with most things in the world, things are rarely ever black or white.

I was just touching upon the point that the Lakers pre-Gasol had demonstrated through 2 consecutive 35+ game stretches to start a season, that when relatively healthy (Odom actually went down for an extended period of time after 15 games or so in 07, but the team still was able to stay affloat and score some major wins), they were a quality team (pacing out to mid 50s wins/top 3 finishes two years in a row) in the western conference. The progress trend began towards the end of the 06 season, into the playoffs, and carried on into the next seasons. Injuries really killed them, and when a team is overachieving beyond its talent level, injuries will halt all momentum and chemistry. This was the story of the 06-08 Pre-Gasol Lakers. Gasol's presence amongst other things, gave the team more breathing room as it pertained to withstanding injuries. But injuries are something that can crush any team.

But going back to the Diva point. Kobe was an ever shifting personality. He was not some static being. He had run-ins with teammates and teammates who swore by him. He built the confidence up of some teammates and crushed others. Just a complex character. He was neither an angel nor a demon at all times.

That 07-08 season though illustrates the whole complex picture. After that parking lot incidence of 'ship his A out', which was undoubtedly a low point (as was his meltdowns on radio) he came into training camp, worked his but off and began the process of trying to gain his teammates trust back. He dropped his shooting attempts quite significantly from what he was doing in the latter half of the 07 season, put maximum effort on defense and the little hustle things one would expect to only surface in the PS, and put special emphasis in feeding Andrew Bynum in particular. His teammates to their credit responded and as a result the team was a top 3 in the west at the time of Bynum's injury. The whole off-season ordeal had long been forgotten prior to the Gasol trade.

Bynum himself responded amazingly, and has spoken about how Kobe and he worked together seamlessly during this period. Bynum should be praised for his maturity, but if one is going to slam Kobe for that off-season, then at least some recognition (read:not praise) is required for how much he tried to rectify the issue he created. His teammates certainly did appreciate it. To be honest, it was mostly Kobe's detractors that continued to harbour ill-thoughts about it all.

So yeah a, complex character indeed. Let's not simplify things is all I'm saying.

[rasta_marley]

Oh boy. I don't know who would give me more of a headache.

The guy that practically requires a miraculous Kwame for Pau trade to save his legacy. Or the guy that joins my greatest rival AFTER I build a contender around him.

Both really low on my franchise building list.

Hahaha im this post is spot on......

Sent from my LG-K373 using RealGM mobile app

[Amare_1_Knicks]

If you want to argue diversity of scoring, then I'm just about there with you. KD can score from anywhere, has unbelievable length/size for a perimeter player, and is other-worldly efficient as well.

What I will argue is how Kobe's offensive game translated to the post season better than any year we've seen from Durant(Outside of 2017 of course, but I simply can't and won't ignore the fact that he was playing with the two-time reigning MVP, still in his prime, the DPOY, another super explosive scorer/shooter, a sixth man candidate, and overall a team/franchise that was a well-oiled/championship caliber team before he even got there).

Typically, there was a 5%TS drop off for KD from the RS to the playoffs(2010-2016, .621% in the RS to .575%TS in the PS), whereas for Kobe there was actually a .5%TS improvement from the RS to the postseason(2006-2010) with three of those five postseason runs ending in a finals appearance/two titles.

I voted Kobe. There's an efficiency advantage to speak of for KD in the RS, but I find Kobe to be clearly the higher end postseason player. Also, I always found something to be lacking from KD in the way of leadership qualities, at least compared to some other all time greats.

Jesus christ.

2011 RS 27.7/6.8/2.7 58.9 TS%
2011 PO 28.6/8.2/2.8 58.6 TS%

2012 RS 28.0/8.0/3.5 61.0 TS%
2012 PO 28.5/7.4/3.7 63.2 TS%

2013 RS 28.1/7.9/4.6 64.7 TS%
2013 PO 30.8/9.0/6.3 57.4 TS%

2014 RS 32.0/7.4/5.5 63.5 TS%
2014 PO 29.6/8.9/3.9 57.0 TS%

2016 RS 28.2/8.2/5.0 63.4 TS%
2016 PO 28.4/7.1/3.3 54.2 TS%

In 2013, he was forced into the role of PG after the Westbrook injury. And if you ignore the final game against Memphis where his body was clearly broken down from playing 45:30, 47:16, 42:00, 44:42, 43:13, 43:42, 42:34, 45:44, 48:19, and 48:00 in consecutive games, he averaged 33.1/10.1/6.3 60.2 TS%. Without his 2nd option. With half of those games coming against the best defense in the NBA featuring DPOY Gasol, 4th in DPOY Allen, and 2 other elite defenders in Conley/Prince. And KD had 0 help that series.
Perkins had the worst series in NBA history, posting a negative PER.
Collison was almost as bad.
Ibaka shot sub 38% from the field.
Sefalosha, the starting SG, shot 20% from 3.
22 year old Reggie Jackson was OKC's 2nd best player in the series, he averaged 13.8/6.2/3.8 and shot 21.4% from 3.
Kevin Martin averaged 11.8/2.8/1.0 on 37.0/22.2/0.0 splits after G1

But yes, let's blame Durant for a slight drop in efficiency given he was forced into playing a new role with a much heavier load facing constant double teams with no spacing and no support.

He had 2 bad games in 2014, G3 & G4 of the 1st round. After the Mr. Unreliable headline, he destroyed Memphis and posted 30.2/8.6/3.9 60.1 TS% for the rest of the playoffs.

Durant's regular season numbers are skewed by the 40 games he played without Westbrook where he averaged 35/8/7 65 TS%. Westbrook had a negative impact on KD, as shown by every game he's played without him.

2016 was his one bad playoff run. Although he still destroyed the DPOY & MVP runner up in the 2nd round for 30/8/4 60 TS%.

But Durant did post a horrendous 54.2 TS% in the 2016 playoffs. Funny enough, that's still higher than Kobe's career playoff TS(54.1%). As a matter of fact, Kobe's TS in his 5 Title runs is exactly 54.2%.

So I just need to preface my post by making sure that you understand the context of TS%. It was much lower during the Lakers three peat(52%), and during that stretch Kobe shot 53%TS. Even in 2003, he averaged 32PPG on 53%TS which was +1%TS relative to the league average. The game was much more defensive minded, physical and taxing, especially for perimeter players and still Kobe managed to be a wholly efficient player. (BTW, there's even more context to his individual runs, like odd poor FT shooting spells that had his TS dip in 2002, but either way it's clear that he was efficient)

What's more is that I wasn't saying KD had 'bad' playoff runs per se, but instead that his game didn't translate as well Kobe's did. That's apparent in watching him throughout the years against solid defensive teams in the post season where he clearly struggles at least some of the time and also by the numbers that I pointed out(his scoring efficiency dipping in the postseason). It's ridiculous to suggest that Russ had a negative impact on him as well; yes, KD could get more without him(IN THE REGULAR SEASON), but their overall ceiling was far lower without Westbrook as evidenced by that 2013 run. KD needs a ball-handler or two alongside him, that much is clear.

Also, that "new role" that KD had to step into, was a role that Kobe Bryant lived in. Facing constant double, triple teams, and incredible perimeter defensive pressure as essentially the lone perimeter threat throughout his career. He made a living off of warping defenses and hitting the open man out of the double team for a three pointer, or an open big for a shot right at the basket. An aspect of KD's game that is lacking in comparison with Kobe's.

[RCM88x]

Kobe. I think the diversity in his scoring abilities alongside his ability to facilitate from the perimeter and elavate bigmen in particular makes him a better cornerstorne than KD. I feel like as a GM I could build a championship team around Kobe more easily.

How did he elevate Dwight Howard?

Kobe Bryant did not elevate Shaquile O'Neal, and Pau Gasol peaked as a Laker but he was roughly the same level as a Grizzly.

Dwight Howard was recovering from surgery and quite frankly didn't wanna be there, and you could tell by his body language and effort.

Pau was seen as a fringe all star before playing with Kobe. After playing with him, he's all of a sudden seen as an all time great power forward.

Playing for the 2nd best coach ever on a talented team can do a lot for a player. He was also playing in Memphis, so using his popularity as a player probably isn't a good way to rate him.

[rebirthoftheM]

Playing for the 2nd best coach ever on a talented team can do a lot for a player. He was also playing in Memphis, so using his popularity as a player probably isn't a good way to rate him.

I think there is some confusion here. No honest analysis would pin Pau's better overall play in LA (and he was better from the get go he started playing on the Lakers by any reasonable criteria) to Kobe alone. First and foremost, Pau gets the lions-share of the credit. He put in the work and effort, and integrated himself into the offense (high bball iq+ elite big-man skill-set+ triangle= goodness), and played much better defense in LA. Phil gets credit also for simply being the coach- though will get to this in a second. The better offensive talent on the team, particular Lamar Odom, as compared to Memphis was also a big factor. Any simplified analysis that denies all the relevant factors is just bias/homerism.

Then there is Kobe of course. His team role was obviously being the primary manager of the entire offense from the perimeter and the teams secondary post player/play-maker with Pau. Phil as is generally known, and a point he has raised multiple times, did not harp on too much about offensive X and Os and in-game tactics. The triangle was, as any good offense is, a read and react offense, not a rigid playbook (though of course the team did have their sets). Once the team learned the gist of the offense, he tended to let the team go on offense, tinkering around the edges when their execution was failing. What Phil needed on the court though, were players who could make sure the offense was in order. In-steps Kobe here.

Kobe amongst other things, was very adept at breaking down defenses from the perimeter, running the screen and roll roll & pick and pop (aka the bread and butter of the Kobe/Pau/Odom offensive trio sets), facilitating from the high post/pinch post, and hitting a player coming off a flash etc. He was also an excellent interior passer, something Phil Jackson required of his primary facilitators in a post-based offense. Kobe also, because of his ability to hit jumpers from all areas of the court, did not crowd the interior for his teammates. Artest in 2010 commented on how Kobe was given the task of teaching him the triangle offense. This was in fact Kobe's general role on the team, and Tex Winter noted (to Roland Lazenby- Phil's Autobiographer) that he believed nobody he had ever coached understood the triangle as well as Kobe.

I bring this up, because all of these particular attributes that Kobe possessed prior to teaming up with Gasol were a big factor in why the two instantly meshed, and also a reason for Pau's better play in LA. Very rarely do you see an all-star offensive calibre player get dealt mid-season, and right off the bat gel that well with the teams existing superstar. But that's what happened. Pau no longer had to work as hard as he did in Memphis to generate offense for himself and his team. He no longer had the burden of shouldering an entire offense- something he did not excel at, particularly in the post-season. His offensive ratings during the Memphis years IMO are indicative of this. He also now had a player who possessed both the ability to attract large amounts of attention to himself, and get the ball to him in the spots he was most effective at. Less energy expended as a result. Pau as a result (alongside the lure of winning a ring) upped his defense, and by all measures he was a much better defender than he was in Memphis, despite Memphis being a better defensive team (well during the Battier Days) and possessing better defensive coaching.

All in all, Kobe made Pau's on-court life much easier and vice versa. But Kobe was already a dominant superstar, who many considered to be the best player/in the conversation at the time Pau was traded for. Pau meanwhile was a fringe all-star at best, and to be honest, as a #1, he was having very low-ish level offensive impacts in Memphis+ was a poor defender for a big (and if you're fan of RAPM, Pau's RAPM spiked in LA almost instantly. He generally did not do well in ORAPM and was below average/negatives in DRAPM in Memphis). He was most effective as a #2 behind a dominant offensive #1 that could accentuate his strengths and minimize his weaknesses. That was Kobe in a nut-shell.

That's all I meant originally by Kobe elevating Gasol. It was not to say that Pau was nothing without Kobe or that Kobe should get most of the credit. Pau gets most of the credit for his growth. But we can't sit here and pretend that Pau magically became a much more effective player the minute he was traded to the Lakers on both ends, and some-how de-link this from Kobe. One only needs to look at how the Kobe/Bynum duo, despite Bynum being far less refined than Gasol, were doing prior to Gasol being dealt to understand what went on after Gasol was traded for. Pau himself has linked this on a number of occasions publicly, and I think ones eyes/common sense/ some data stuff would lead one to similar conclusions.