Chris Paul amongst the best PGs

[couchie]

I certainly believe it.

I watched every second of that utah clippers series. Clippers should have won game one when Gobert went down and they still had blake. Maybe it would not have come to a game 7.

[og15]

Why is CP0 being compared to Kidd and Nash? There's no comparison. Both of them are significantly better than CP0.

What really separates Paul and Kidd? I'm actually interested to know what you believe is the distinction. Kidd got a championship in a different role at 37, but Paul has another 5 or 6 years to find that kind of situation too. Kidd went to the finals twice in a row which is a great accomplishment, in no way easy to do, but certainly more doable if you have the best supporting cast in your conference. Can't see how Paul will have the situation unless he went to the Cavs which makes no sense. So uutside of the championship the only other difference would be the two finals years in the early 2000's when the East was pretty miserable and Kidd was traded to the Nets who went from a miserable defense to elite (Kidd kinda helps a lot with that) as they added Kidd, Kittles (back from injury), RJ, MacCulloch and Collins and got 30 more games from KVH.

When Kidd was in a similar situation to Clippers Paul, talented team in the West, he went 5 seasons with:

40 wins (half season traded) (2-3 1st round)
56 wins (1-4 1st round)
27 wins (lockout, 0-3 1st round)
53 wins (3-1 1st round [played 1 game], 1-4 2nd round)
51 wins (1-3 1st round)

Didn't expect his teams to necessarily win any of those series', but outside of Phoenix going up 2-1 on Seattle and seeming like they could upset, no other series was even competitive, his 50+ win teams just got mopped off the floor. Even worse he went from 14/6/10 and 42% FG / 33% 3PT / 79% FT in the RS to 13/6/10 with 38% FG / 29% 3PT / 70% FT with 1-2 more minutes in the playoffs.

Goes to the East where he's now on the best team because the East was awful. His 52 win team would have 5th in the West and 5th in SRS. His 49 win team would have been 7th in the West and 4th in SRS. The Nets best opponent in the two year span was probably a Pierce and chucker Antoine Walker led Celtics team that was 17th in Ortg and 5th in Drtg because the Pistons had some Billups health issues IIRC. Nets could definitely defend, and Kidd was a huge part of that, and they also played the champion 03-04 Pistons tough, and Kidd killed it in the playoffs those two finals seasons. When we are making comparisons though then were have to do more breakdown. So what kind of boost does those finals appearances give him? We have to consider his previous 5 years in the West and his other years in the East after those two years also. Staying in the West in Phoenix would not have give him and opportunity to go past round 1 or 2 (can't get Amare, wouldn't go to lottery). He has the Dallas championship as an all-round role player / floor general, but even there, his other years in Dallas with Dirk were 3 first round exits and one second round exit. Not really much distinction, he had a good window, but outside of that, Kidd did nothing noteworthy as a lead guy in the playoffs, actually without those finals seasons with New Jersey, Paul played much more competitively in the post-season, so I'm not really sure about Kidd here.

I certainly believe it.

I watched every second of that utah clippers series. Clippers should have won game one when Gobert went down and they still had blake. Maybe it would not have come to a game 7.

Possible, but if Utah is playing more desperate it can change the outcome of the next game as down 2-0, teams tend to play with a great desperation. That game 1 was interesting. Tied at half, not sure if Paul scoring more in the first half changes much since Clipper shot 18/40 FG and 6/14 3PT (45/43). Paul then had 12 points in the 4th and hit the shot to tie the game, but no wing on the Clippers could guard Joe Johnson. Johnson also hit his game winner with no time left. Blake went out in the middle of game 3, the Clippers got one win with Blake Griffin playing. Their second win he wasn't there for the whole second half, so again if Clippers are up two and you have a desperate Utah in game 3 with Blake going down at half, could have changed it, but maybe not. Maybe Blake and Jamal shouldn't have switched and allowed Johnson got attack Jamal, the easy prey, but woulda, coulda, shoulda.

[Ballerhogger]

Point guards who are better than him
Curry
Westbrook
Wall
He's certainly top 5 , older and leaving his prime
As far all time
Jason Kidd
Steve Nash
Magic Johnson
Westbrook
Curry
.

[clippertown]

Doc didn't refuse anything, the Clippers wanted to give Paul that money, don't know where you have been, but Ballmer clearly said that was their plan, but Paul didn't want to say. So you should be thanking Paul for that, not Doc or anyone in the front office.

From what I have heard, Ballmer was unwilling to offer CP3 a fifth year at ultra-max rates and therefore CP3 decided to move on to Houston. I have a great deal of difficulty grasping the idea that CP3 left all that money on the table unless that money was never offered in the first place, which makes much more sense.

[karkinos]

cp3 will always be my fave non lakers player
i don't know why everyone spends so much energy criticizing a guy for not winning rings. just appreciate the talent and skill that he has. he'll go down with the greats like malone, stockton, payton, and barkley. you can never say he wasn't a competitor and he showed up for every playoff series. he is and always has been a complete pg on both ends of the floor. you can't name someone that is more well rounded at his position (all nba 1st, defensive team 1st, etc) and like kobe for his position, he was really the gold standard any "pure" point guard was measured against.

at some point people should realize that if your best player is a point guard, he has to have an incredibly deep team behind him to win a championship. hell, curry isn't even winning finals mvps, which should be a big hint to you that it takes a lot more than an individual point guard MVP in this league to get a chip. there's a reason why so few nba pgs have ever won fmvp (billups, thomas, dumars, etc). yes he hasn't made a conference finals or finals appearance, but really what difference does it make? ok so what if he made one or two or 5? you'll still knock him for not making the finals. and if he doesn't win in the finals, then you'll just knock him for not having a championship.

[Just_Somebody]

Magic
Curry
Isiah
CP3
Stockton
Oscar
Nash
Kidd

[gizardoe]

I don't see Dennis Johnson on the list I think he is so underrated.

[JGOJustin]

Doc didn't refuse anything, the Clippers wanted to give Paul that money, don't know where you have been, but Ballmer clearly said that was their plan, but Paul didn't want to say. So you should be thanking Paul for that, not Doc or anyone in the front office.

From what I have heard, Ballmer was unwilling to offer CP3 a fifth year at ultra-max rates and therefore CP3 decided to move on to Houston. I have a great deal of difficulty grasping the idea that CP3 left all that money on the table unless that money was never offered in the first place, which makes much more sense.

That's just not true.

Ballmer himself, out of his own mouth said that he was willing to offer CP a 5th year because he and LAC believed that he was that good.

[JGOJustin]

Magic
Curry
Isiah
CP3
Stockton
Oscar
Nash
Kidd

I can rock with this

[og15]

Doc didn't refuse anything, the Clippers wanted to give Paul that money, don't know where you have been, but Ballmer clearly said that was their plan, but Paul didn't want to say. So you should be thanking Paul for that, not Doc or anyone in the front office.

From what I have heard, Ballmer was unwilling to offer CP3 a fifth year at ultra-max rates and therefore CP3 decided to move on to Houston. I have a great deal of difficulty grasping the idea that CP3 left all that money on the table unless that money was never offered in the first place, which makes much more sense.

Yea, Ramona reported that after the trade, and it was to suggest that it was what caused him to want to leave, but that's why reporting from sources is always rocky. Sometimes people's sources are someone who works for the team and hears things through the grapevine but is not actually hearing anything first hand or with the decision makers. Hence why "sources" are off as much as they are correct.

Of course instead of sources you can just get first hand info, and from a straight forward guy like Ballmer. In his interview with Woj though, Ballmer explicitly said the plan was to resign Paul and they wanted him back (starting at 6:00). When Woj asked if they were willing to offer him that 5th year, Ballmer said that while he's seen the stats about PG's sharp decline after about 35, they were fully committed to doing that in order to try and win a championship even if in the later years there might be some issues. Then he said after Paul didn't want to take it, and they saw that Houston would still have been able to make moves to sign Paul in free agency, instead of trying to play chicken they opted to trade him instead. Which actually helped Houston, but helped us more because just losing Paul without the trade wouldn't have given cap space to add any significant players and no extra assets.

Then even before that Doc had said that they didn't differ on numbers with Paul and also that they had pitched with and without Paul to Blake and he said he was coming back either way, but since it's Doc people don't want to believe him.

Paul has made good money in his career and will still get more money after next season, I think we tend to always say we can't imagine this or that player not taking all the money they can, then they do just that. Money can be a motivator, but it's not always the main or only motivation especially when you have tons of it already and either way are still going to get a lot. He turned down a lot of money for a lot of money, so whatever, people do it in jobs all the time, it's nothing surprising.

[ItsThatEasy]

I think Isiah Thomas has to rank above him. He may not have the stats, but he was tough as nails and proved himself in the playoffs more than cp3 has thus far

Agreed.

At some point accomplishments have to matter more than analytics, and Isiah simply got it done in the playoffs.

[clippertown]

Doc didn't refuse anything, the Clippers wanted to give Paul that money, don't know where you have been, but Ballmer clearly said that was their plan, but Paul didn't want to say. So you should be thanking Paul for that, not Doc or anyone in the front office.

From what I have heard, Ballmer was unwilling to offer CP3 a fifth year at ultra-max rates and therefore CP3 decided to move on to Houston. I have a great deal of difficulty grasping the idea that CP3 left all that money on the table unless that money was never offered in the first place, which makes much more sense.

Yea, Ramona reported that after the trade, and it was to suggest that it was what caused him to want to leave, but that's why reporting from sources is always rocky. Sometimes people's sources are someone who works for the team and hears things through the grapevine but is not actually hearing anything first hand or with the decision makers. Hence why "sources" are off as much as they are correct.

Of course instead of sources you can just get first hand info, and from a straight forward guy like Ballmer. In his interview with Woj though, Ballmer explicitly said the plan was to resign Paul and they wanted him back (starting at 6:00). When Woj asked if they were willing to offer him that 5th year, Ballmer said that while he's seen the stats about PG's sharp decline after about 35, they were fully committed to doing that in order to try and win a championship even if in the later years there might be some issues. Then he said after Paul didn't want to take it, and they saw that Houston would still have been able to make moves to sign Paul in free agency, instead of trying to play chicken they opted to trade him instead. Which actually helped Houston, but helped us more because just losing Paul without the trade wouldn't have given cap space to add any significant players and no extra assets.

Then even before that Doc had said that they didn't differ on numbers with Paul and also that they had pitched with and without Paul to Blake and he said he was coming back either way, but since it's Doc people don't want to believe him.

Paul has made good money in his career and will still get more money after next season, I think we tend to always say we can't imagine this or that player not taking all the money they can, then they do just that. Money can be a motivator, but it's not always the main or only motivation especially when you have tons of it already and either way are still going to get a lot. He turned down a lot of money for a lot of money, so whatever, people do it in jobs all the time, it's nothing surprising.

Ramona is the most trustworthy source in the NBA in my opinion. Ballmer and Doc have reputations and are more than willing to lie to promote their brand. I just can't see CP3 leaving a super-max on the table. He showed no signs of being unhappy and no demands to leave were ever made publicly. This all came about very suddenly and I personally do not believe CP3 would leave $50M+ on the table if it was offered. As he has stated multiple times, he needs to take care of his starving family.

[JGOJustin]

From what I have heard, Ballmer was unwilling to offer CP3 a fifth year at ultra-max rates and therefore CP3 decided to move on to Houston. I have a great deal of difficulty grasping the idea that CP3 left all that money on the table unless that money was never offered in the first place, which makes much more sense.

Yea, Ramona reported that after the trade, and it was to suggest that it was what caused him to want to leave, but that's why reporting from sources is always rocky. Sometimes people's sources are someone who works for the team and hears things through the grapevine but is not actually hearing anything first hand or with the decision makers. Hence why "sources" are off as much as they are correct.

Of course instead of sources you can just get first hand info, and from a straight forward guy like Ballmer. In his interview with Woj though, Ballmer explicitly said the plan was to resign Paul and they wanted him back (starting at 6:00). When Woj asked if they were willing to offer him that 5th year, Ballmer said that while he's seen the stats about PG's sharp decline after about 35, they were fully committed to doing that in order to try and win a championship even if in the later years there might be some issues. Then he said after Paul didn't want to take it, and they saw that Houston would still have been able to make moves to sign Paul in free agency, instead of trying to play chicken they opted to trade him instead. Which actually helped Houston, but helped us more because just losing Paul without the trade wouldn't have given cap space to add any significant players and no extra assets.

Then even before that Doc had said that they didn't differ on numbers with Paul and also that they had pitched with and without Paul to Blake and he said he was coming back either way, but since it's Doc people don't want to believe him.

Paul has made good money in his career and will still get more money after next season, I think we tend to always say we can't imagine this or that player not taking all the money they can, then they do just that. Money can be a motivator, but it's not always the main or only motivation especially when you have tons of it already and either way are still going to get a lot. He turned down a lot of money for a lot of money, so whatever, people do it in jobs all the time, it's nothing surprising.

Ramona is the most trustworthy source in the NBA in my opinion. Ballmer and Doc have reputations and are more than willing to lie to promote their brand. I just can't see CP3 leaving a super-max on the table. He showed no signs of being unhappy and no demands to leave were ever made publicly. This all came about very suddenly and I personally do not believe CP3 would leave $50M+ on the table if it was offered. As he has stated multiple times, he needs to take care of his starving family.

Am I reading this right?

Ramona is more of a trustworthy source than the actual people who were giving Chris the contract???? What?

[og15]

From what I have heard, Ballmer was unwilling to offer CP3 a fifth year at ultra-max rates and therefore CP3 decided to move on to Houston. I have a great deal of difficulty grasping the idea that CP3 left all that money on the table unless that money was never offered in the first place, which makes much more sense.

Yea, Ramona reported that after the trade, and it was to suggest that it was what caused him to want to leave, but that's why reporting from sources is always rocky. Sometimes people's sources are someone who works for the team and hears things through the grapevine but is not actually hearing anything first hand or with the decision makers. Hence why "sources" are off as much as they are correct.

Of course instead of sources you can just get first hand info, and from a straight forward guy like Ballmer. In his interview with Woj though, Ballmer explicitly said the plan was to resign Paul and they wanted him back (starting at 6:00). When Woj asked if they were willing to offer him that 5th year, Ballmer said that while he's seen the stats about PG's sharp decline after about 35, they were fully committed to doing that in order to try and win a championship even if in the later years there might be some issues. Then he said after Paul didn't want to take it, and they saw that Houston would still have been able to make moves to sign Paul in free agency, instead of trying to play chicken they opted to trade him instead. Which actually helped Houston, but helped us more because just losing Paul without the trade wouldn't have given cap space to add any significant players and no extra assets.

Then even before that Doc had said that they didn't differ on numbers with Paul and also that they had pitched with and without Paul to Blake and he said he was coming back either way, but since it's Doc people don't want to believe him.

Paul has made good money in his career and will still get more money after next season, I think we tend to always say we can't imagine this or that player not taking all the money they can, then they do just that. Money can be a motivator, but it's not always the main or only motivation especially when you have tons of it already and either way are still going to get a lot. He turned down a lot of money for a lot of money, so whatever, people do it in jobs all the time, it's nothing surprising.

Ramona is the most trustworthy source in the NBA in my opinion. Ballmer and Doc have reputations and are more than willing to lie to promote their brand. I just can't see CP3 leaving a super-max on the table. He showed no signs of being unhappy and no demands to leave were ever made publicly. This all came about very suddenly and I personally do not believe CP3 would leave $50M+ on the table if it was offered. As he has stated multiple times, he needs to take care of his starving family.

Well you can believe your own psychoanalysis of a player and his thought process and secondary / tertiary sources over primary sources saying it from their own mouth, that's your own decision. I really don't know what to tell you, but you seem to have already decided what you want to believe. If you don't want to believe Ballmer in an interview where he's candid about everything, even saying they made many mistakes, that's on you. It is actually worse for the team to say "we offered him the full max and he still didn't want to stay", than to say they convinced him to opt in and trade because they didn't want to give him the money. The first spin which is what Ramona was suggesting doesn't make them look like a team that couldn't convince their star to stay, while the reality which Ballmer reported does, and Ballmer says they want to be better and not have that happen again, but whatever, you do you.

[Spintown]

Off topic do people really think Curry is the second best point guard all time?

[phanman]

I'll give u the rebounds, but defend? Yes he could/can, Cp3 is a great defender as well.

CP3 is a good defender who gets a lot of steals but Kidd was so much bigger and stronger than Paul. I don't think Paul is quite on his level.

Yea he is, even with his size, Kidd was better but not that much better. Cp3 gets first team defense almost every year, come on man

Nah, Kidd with his 6'4 frame was that much better than Paul. He doesn't get bullied like Chris has been prone to due to his lack of size.
Kidd was a 4x 1st team and 5x 2nd team himself. Finishing 2nd to the likes of Payton, Kobe, and Bowen. His era just had more elite defensive guards than Paul's did. This is a guy that at 37yo still did a great job at slowing down LeBron at times in that 2011 finals.

Off topic do people really think Curry is the second best point guard all time?

He's not there yet but his trajectory is looking highly promising and thus why people rate him so high. 8 years into the league and already has: 2 Rings, 2 MVPs, 4x All-Star, 2x First team, 2x Second team, 50-40-90 club, best shooter in NBA history, arguably the greatest regular season campaign in NBA history, and the record for most wins as a team.

That and he has a game that looks like its going to age gracefully he is gunning for that #1 spot me thinks.

[Woodsanity]

Chris Paul does a lot more for your team offensively than Kidd. I don't care about a minor defensive advantage at best.

Kidd has never anchored an elite offensive team, he is incapable of being an elite offensive anchor. He simply isn't good enough as a shooter or scorer.

[clippertown]

Am I reading this right?

Ramona is more of a trustworthy source than the actual people who were giving Chris the contract???? What?

Yes you are reading that right. You can believe Doc and Ballmer who are highly motivated to tell the world how generous they are with their players, but I will choose to believe Ramona who is a solid and impartial journalist.

Just as a question, do you believe CP3 hated the Clippers so much that he was willing to leave $50M+ on the table just to play with Harden? Come on. Lets be realistic here. Don't believe everything you hear.

[JGOJustin]

Am I reading this right?

Ramona is more of a trustworthy source than the actual people who were giving Chris the contract???? What?

Yes you are reading that right. You can believe Doc and Ballmer who are highly motivated to tell the world how generous they are with their players, but I will choose to believe Ramona who is a solid and impartial journalist.

Just as a question, do you believe CP3 hated the Clippers so much that he was willing to leave $50M+ on the table just to play with Harden? Come on. Lets be realistic here. Don't believe everything you hear.

He didn't leave 50Ms on the table my man, he opted in and Houston probably guaranteed Chris a max deal next summer thus LAC trading Chris to Houston.

He didn't hate the Clippers, just felt that LAC had grown stale and that Houston was closer to competing with GSW than the Clippers along with having personal relationships with members on the Rockets.

[Screwston]

Am I reading this right?

Ramona is more of a trustworthy source than the actual people who were giving Chris the contract???? What?

Yes you are reading that right. You can believe Doc and Ballmer who are highly motivated to tell the world how generous they are with their players, but I will choose to believe Ramona who is a solid and impartial journalist.

Just as a question, do you believe CP3 hated the Clippers so much that he was willing to leave $50M+ on the table just to play with Harden? Come on. Lets be realistic here. Don't believe everything you hear.

He didn't leave 50Ms on the table my man, he opted in and Houston probably guaranteed Chris a max deal next summer thus LAC trading Chris to Houston.

He didn't hate the Clippers, just felt that LAC had grown stale and that Houston was closer to competing with GSW than the Clippers along with having personal relationships with members on the Rockets.

Exactly