Did Dirks 2011 Run move him past KG for you?

[mischievous]

Both guys are highly loved on this board, but I'm taking Garnett. Simply a better all around player. The 2011 run from Dirk was something else, but in reality his finals performance was nothing special and it took an epic meltdown from Lebron for the mavs to win. Everybody knows that.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

And how can I put KG over Dirk when he doesn't even have one single memorable dominant playoff series/moment or game in his entire playoff career vs anyone of real worth.

His overrated D never slowed anyone of worth in the playoffs. Go look at 01 vs SA and especially 2002 where Dirk flat out annihilated his TWolves. Dirk's offensive ability overcame teams. Dirk's offence > KGs defence

His 1 title in 08. He's surrounded by a stacked team and barely squeaks by a 8th seeded Hawks team. LBJ and some scrubs almost eliminate his team. In the game 7 he's a spectator to 1 of the greatest 1 on 1 duels in playoff history.

Pierce was Bostons best player in the last 2 rounds and deserved MVP. In 2010 at age 33.....if it was Dirk at the same age in his shoes Boston would have another championship. Instead it was KG getting outscored and outplayed by Pau Gasol in the series

[antonac]

Yes, ATG lists shouldn't be about boring stuff like, "oh he was a better rebounder." I mean, come on.

KG had elite physical attributes and competed as hard as anyone in the league, but Dirk did special things.

[pelifan]

yea it's only with the benefit of hindsight that I realize DIrk's supporting cast was never really that good.

[Texas Chuck]

yea it's only with the benefit of hindsight that I realize DIrk's supporting cast was never really that good.

yeah its amazing to me how much the narrative between these 2 was always KG had nothing and Dirk had it all. Look at those teams post Steve Nash that were winning 60 plus and went to the Finals:

Erick Dampier
Josh Howard
Adrian Griffin
Jason Terry
young Devin Harris
Stackhouse(easily the worst player in the league playing the minutes he played---I cannnot undersell enough how bad he was For all the Ricky Davis talk, he was actually a useful player while with Minny and he was only there 1.5 years. Stackhouse was in Dallas for 5 years and playing on really good teams, he was a huge negative. The team was about 9 pts better per 100 with him off the court)

that's the core. Sorry, but that's not the core of a 67 win team or of a NBA Finals team in a very tough conference. And add to that the coach was freaking Avery Johnson. What Dirk did in the immediate aftermath of Nash leaving is so under-appreciated. Those teams had big payrolls and people confuse that with lots of talent. They were fine supporting casts, but far from championship calibar.

That's why I maintain no one should get that worked up over 2011. Yes Dirk played at an MVP level all season. Yes Dirk had an incredible playoff run (and he was far better in the Finals than he gets credit for too--I don't know if people just remember the first half of game 6 or what). But the difference was that supporting cast was really really good and perfectly matched to Dirk. Chandler was the elite mobile defensive big they needed and Haywood and then Mahinmi were more than solid backups. DeShawn, Marion, and Kidd gave them 3 really good wing defenders, JET carried his RS play into the playoffs that year, Barea was a PNR wizard playing for a PNR coach with the one of the GOAT PNR bigs, and they had lots of shooting and the whole team was smart veterans who defended and moved the ball.

Dirk has a title because of his unique greatness playing at the same high level he always played at, but also because he had a brilliant head coach and quality teammates playing well. It's just like we saw with KG--give him Sam Cassell at his best or put on those deep and talented Celtics teams and shockingly enough we see great team success.

Now I think Dirk's game is a greater floor-raiser than KG's so it doesn't surprise me that Dirk had more team success than KG when they each had less than their best supporting casts, but KG certainly seems like a higher ceiling raiser in the majority of roster constructions so Dirk's floor raising capability makes him the obvious choice imo to start a franchise with, but not an obvious choice over who had the better career.

And I'm truly baffled by anyone and everyone who thinks its a simple, clearcut choice between these two players.

[Baller1234a]

Very tough but for me KG is better all time just for his better all around game

[1993Playoffs]

yea it's only with the benefit of hindsight that I realize DIrk's supporting cast was never really that good.

yeah its amazing to me how much the narrative between these 2 was always KG had nothing and Dirk had it all. Look at those teams post Steve Nash that were winning 60 plus and went to the Finals:

Erick Dampier
Josh Howard
Adrian Griffin
Jason Terry
young Devin Harris
Stackhouse(easily the worst player in the league playing the minutes he played---I cannnot undersell enough how bad he was For all the Ricky Davis talk, he was actually a useful player while with Minny and he was only there 1.5 years. Stackhouse was in Dallas for 5 years and playing on really good teams, he was a huge negative. The team was about 9 pts better per 100 with him off the court)

that's the core. Sorry, but that's not the core of a 67 win team or of a NBA Finals team in a very tough conference. And add to that the coach was freaking Avery Johnson. What Dirk did in the immediate aftermath of Nash leaving is so under-appreciated. Those teams had big payrolls and people confuse that with lots of talent. They were fine supporting casts, but far from championship calibar.

That's why I maintain no one should get that worked up over 2011. Yes Dirk played at an MVP level all season. Yes Dirk had an incredible playoff run (and he was far better in the Finals than he gets credit for too--I don't know if people just remember the first half of game 6 or what). But the difference was that supporting cast was really really good and perfectly matched to Dirk. Chandler was the elite mobile defensive big they needed and Haywood and then Mahinmi were more than solid backups. DeShawn, Marion, and Kidd gave them 3 really good wing defenders, JET carried his RS play into the playoffs that year, Barea was a PNR wizard playing for a PNR coach with the one of the GOAT PNR bigs, and they had lots of shooting and the whole team was smart veterans who defended and moved the ball.

Dirk has a title because of his unique greatness playing at the same high level he always played at, but also because he had a brilliant head coach and quality teammates playing well. It's just like we saw with KG--give him Sam Cassell at his best or put on those deep and talented Celtics teams and shockingly enough we see great team success.

Now I think Dirk's game is a greater floor-raiser than KG's so it doesn't surprise me that Dirk had more team success than KG when they each had less than their best supporting casts, but KG certainly seems like a higher ceiling raiser in the majority of roster constructions so Dirk's floor raising capability makes him the obvious choice imo to start a franchise with, but not an obvious choice over who had the better career.

And I'm truly baffled by anyone and everyone who thinks its a simple, clearcut choice between these two players.

At the time (06&07) sure they were title contenders Dirk just disappointed in the 06 finals. And had one of the most embarrassing series of an MVP i can remember losing to an 8th seed as a 1 seed. Thats all on Dirk....

[mischievous]

yea it's only with the benefit of hindsight that I realize DIrk's supporting cast was never really that good.

yeah its amazing to me how much the narrative between these 2 was always KG had nothing and Dirk had it all. Look at those teams post Steve Nash that were winning 60 plus and went to the Finals:

Erick Dampier
Josh Howard
Adrian Griffin
Jason Terry
young Devin Harris
Stackhouse(easily the worst player in the league playing the minutes he played---I cannnot undersell enough how bad he was For all the Ricky Davis talk, he was actually a useful player while with Minny and he was only there 1.5 years. Stackhouse was in Dallas for 5 years and playing on really good teams, he was a huge negative. The team was about 9 pts better per 100 with him off the court)

that's the core. Sorry, but that's not the core of a 67 win team or of a NBA Finals team in a very tough conference. And add to that the coach was freaking Avery Johnson. What Dirk did in the immediate aftermath of Nash leaving is so under-appreciated. Those teams had big payrolls and people confuse that with lots of talent. They were fine supporting casts, but far from championship calibar.

That's why I maintain no one should get that worked up over 2011. Yes Dirk played at an MVP level all season. Yes Dirk had an incredible playoff run (and he was far better in the Finals than he gets credit for too--I don't know if people just remember the first half of game 6 or what). But the difference was that supporting cast was really really good and perfectly matched to Dirk. Chandler was the elite mobile defensive big they needed and Haywood and then Mahinmi were more than solid backups. DeShawn, Marion, and Kidd gave them 3 really good wing defenders, JET carried his RS play into the playoffs that year, Barea was a PNR wizard playing for a PNR coach with the one of the GOAT PNR bigs, and they had lots of shooting and the whole team was smart veterans who defended and moved the ball.

Dirk has a title because of his unique greatness playing at the same high level he always played at, but also because he had a brilliant head coach and quality teammates playing well. It's just like we saw with KG--give him Sam Cassell at his best or put on those deep and talented Celtics teams and shockingly enough we see great team success.

Now I think Dirk's game is a greater floor-raiser than KG's so it doesn't surprise me that Dirk had more team success than KG when they each had less than their best supporting casts, but KG certainly seems like a higher ceiling raiser in the majority of roster constructions so Dirk's floor raising capability makes him the obvious choice imo to start a franchise with, but not an obvious choice over who had the better career.

And I'm truly baffled by anyone and everyone who thinks its a simple, clearcut choice between these two players.

At the time (06&07) sure they were title contenders Dirk just disappointed in the 06 finals. And had one of the most embarrassing series of an MVP i can remember losing to an 8th seed as a 1 seed. Thats all on Dirk....

People always say how that was a bad matchup for the Mavs, but that doesn't excuse Dirk's sh*t individual play.

[1993Playoffs]

yeah its amazing to me how much the narrative between these 2 was always KG had nothing and Dirk had it all. Look at those teams post Steve Nash that were winning 60 plus and went to the Finals:

Erick Dampier
Josh Howard
Adrian Griffin
Jason Terry
young Devin Harris
Stackhouse(easily the worst player in the league playing the minutes he played---I cannnot undersell enough how bad he was For all the Ricky Davis talk, he was actually a useful player while with Minny and he was only there 1.5 years. Stackhouse was in Dallas for 5 years and playing on really good teams, he was a huge negative. The team was about 9 pts better per 100 with him off the court)

that's the core. Sorry, but that's not the core of a 67 win team or of a NBA Finals team in a very tough conference. And add to that the coach was freaking Avery Johnson. What Dirk did in the immediate aftermath of Nash leaving is so under-appreciated. Those teams had big payrolls and people confuse that with lots of talent. They were fine supporting casts, but far from championship calibar.

That's why I maintain no one should get that worked up over 2011. Yes Dirk played at an MVP level all season. Yes Dirk had an incredible playoff run (and he was far better in the Finals than he gets credit for too--I don't know if people just remember the first half of game 6 or what). But the difference was that supporting cast was really really good and perfectly matched to Dirk. Chandler was the elite mobile defensive big they needed and Haywood and then Mahinmi were more than solid backups. DeShawn, Marion, and Kidd gave them 3 really good wing defenders, JET carried his RS play into the playoffs that year, Barea was a PNR wizard playing for a PNR coach with the one of the GOAT PNR bigs, and they had lots of shooting and the whole team was smart veterans who defended and moved the ball.

Dirk has a title because of his unique greatness playing at the same high level he always played at, but also because he had a brilliant head coach and quality teammates playing well. It's just like we saw with KG--give him Sam Cassell at his best or put on those deep and talented Celtics teams and shockingly enough we see great team success.

Now I think Dirk's game is a greater floor-raiser than KG's so it doesn't surprise me that Dirk had more team success than KG when they each had less than their best supporting casts, but KG certainly seems like a higher ceiling raiser in the majority of roster constructions so Dirk's floor raising capability makes him the obvious choice imo to start a franchise with, but not an obvious choice over who had the better career.

And I'm truly baffled by anyone and everyone who thinks its a simple, clearcut choice between these two players.

At the time (06&07) sure they were title contenders Dirk just disappointed in the 06 finals. And had one of the most embarrassing series of an MVP i can remember losing to an 8th seed as a 1 seed. Thats all on Dirk....

People always say how that was a bad matchup for the Mavs, but that doesn't excuse Dirk's sh*t individual play.

Of course not, dirk gets no excuses for that. He was the reining MVP and he team almost won 70 freaking games, you just cant lose to an 8th seed sorry. Lol

[Fundamentals21]

I really like Dirk, but KG was just the better player. I would probably take his 2011 peak over KG's 04, though. Really loved that run. I have them at most 5 spots apart on any list so it's not that big of a deal to me. Close but clear difference.

Wouldnt that mean Dirk is the better player?

Eh, not really. You can have a lower peak but be the better player anyway. Dirk had maybe 3 or 4 playoff runs that were absolutely magical and '11 was one of them. For most of his career Dirk is performing like his offensive superstar self and staying short of mythical outbursts, For that reason, I would take KG.

[mischievous]

I really like Dirk, but KG was just the better player. I would probably take his 2011 peak over KG's 04, though. Really loved that run. I have them at most 5 spots apart on any list so it's not that big of a deal to me. Close but clear difference.

Wouldnt that mean Dirk is the better player?

Eh, not really. You can have a lower peak but be the better player anyway. Dirk had maybe 3 or 4 playoff runs that were absolutely magical and '11 was one of them. For most of his career Dirk is performing like his offensive superstar self and staying short of mythical outbursts, For that reason, I would take KG.

That still doesn't really make sense. Dirk to you had the higher peak, and as you say 3-4 "magical playoff runs", while Kg has maybe 2 very good to great runs. So Dirk has multiple playoff runs better than Kg with a higher peak and comparable longevity yet he's ranked lower?

[Texas Chuck]

I really shouldn't have to dignify the tired tripe of boiling Dirk's career down to the 07 1st round. But fine. Let's take a real look at it.

On Jan 16th, 2007 the Warriors made a blockbuster trade bringing in Capt Jack and Al Harrington. They played the Mavs 4 times in the RS winning all 4 meetings. They went into the playoffs winning 9 out of their last 10 games. This wasn't just an 8th seed vs a 1 seed. Everyone knew this was a dangerous matchup for Dallas. Should they have still won? Yeah they should have, but the Warriors played great, Avery got his ass handed to him by Nellie going away from playing big which won Dallas those 67 games to play smallball against at the time the king of smallball in Nellie.

So to sum up, the Mavs went 67-11 against every team but GSW and went 2-8 against them. The Warriors were just a problem for them.

Now let's get to Dirk. He's awful in games 1 and 6. There is no getting around it and when your best player is that bad 2 times in a 7 game series against a team that has owned you all year its impossible to win. See Lebron vs Dallas in 2011 where the Mavs won 6 out of 8 total meetings against the Heat, they were a bad matchup for the Heat and Lebron didn't show up in 4th quarters all series, you can't win like that.

But the other 4 games Dirk does this:

23/7 +13
20/12 -13
23/15 +3 (in a loss)
30/12 +15

In other words you are convinced that 2 awful games against the worst possible matchup should be all that matters in his career despite the rest of that series being offensively as good or better as ANY series Kevin Garnett ever had.

Sorry but that's just absurd. It would be like saying Dirk destroyed KG's Wolves the only time they matched up in the playoffs so that's all that matters. Let's ignore the other 2 decades of their careers and focus on that.

I honestly can't believe this is still a thing. Yes he played bad. Yes it was embarrasing. No it wasn't nearly as bad as its made out to be if you apply even a hint of context. And we could take every player and pick out their worst moment and create false narratives, but why would we?

[Fundamentals21]

Wouldnt that mean Dirk is the better player?

Eh, not really. You can have a lower peak but be the better player anyway. Dirk had maybe 3 or 4 playoff runs that were absolutely magical and '11 was one of them. For most of his career Dirk is performing like his offensive superstar self and staying short of mythical outbursts, For that reason, I would take KG.

That still doesn't really make sense. Dirk to you had the higher peak, and as you say 3-4 "magical playoff runs", while Kg has maybe 2 very good to great runs. So Dirk has multiple playoff runs better than Kg with a higher peak and comparable longevity yet he's ranked lower?

Like I've said I consider KG to be the better player outside of Dirk's magical runs where he has a case to surpass KG. This out of careers that are some 20 seasons long with a couple decline seasons and a few rookie/dev/pre-relevance type seasons. That's a total of about 4/12 instances (at very best) I'd expect to pick Dirk over KG. This is KG over Dirk at least 67% of the time and KG appears to have some ~15 all star games in comparison to Dirk's ~13. In addition to this there is a case where some years KG's full defensive impact and the true longevity of his defensive aptitude may have been unnoticed as he spent time on bad teams, and yet KG appears to be significantly ahead in MVP shares.

So as far as the question goes, it did make me look back and think I'd rather have Dirk for 1 playoff run, but for franchise building/career purposes, KG still has a very strong body of work that is extremely difficult to surpass.

[Pg81]

yea it's only with the benefit of hindsight that I realize DIrk's supporting cast was never really that good.

yeah its amazing to me how much the narrative between these 2 was always KG had nothing and Dirk had it all. Look at those teams post Steve Nash that were winning 60 plus and went to the Finals:

Erick Dampier
Josh Howard
Adrian Griffin
Jason Terry
young Devin Harris
Stackhouse(easily the worst player in the league playing the minutes he played---I cannnot undersell enough how bad he was For all the Ricky Davis talk, he was actually a useful player while with Minny and he was only there 1.5 years. Stackhouse was in Dallas for 5 years and playing on really good teams, he was a huge negative. The team was about 9 pts better per 100 with him off the court)

that's the core. Sorry, but that's not the core of a 67 win team or of a NBA Finals team in a very tough conference. And add to that the coach was freaking Avery Johnson. What Dirk did in the immediate aftermath of Nash leaving is so under-appreciated. Those teams had big payrolls and people confuse that with lots of talent. They were fine supporting casts, but far from championship calibar.

That's why I maintain no one should get that worked up over 2011. Yes Dirk played at an MVP level all season. Yes Dirk had an incredible playoff run (and he was far better in the Finals than he gets credit for too--I don't know if people just remember the first half of game 6 or what). But the difference was that supporting cast was really really good and perfectly matched to Dirk. Chandler was the elite mobile defensive big they needed and Haywood and then Mahinmi were more than solid backups. DeShawn, Marion, and Kidd gave them 3 really good wing defenders, JET carried his RS play into the playoffs that year, Barea was a PNR wizard playing for a PNR coach with the one of the GOAT PNR bigs, and they had lots of shooting and the whole team was smart veterans who defended and moved the ball.

Dirk has a title because of his unique greatness playing at the same high level he always played at, but also because he had a brilliant head coach and quality teammates playing well. It's just like we saw with KG--give him Sam Cassell at his best or put on those deep and talented Celtics teams and shockingly enough we see great team success.

Now I think Dirk's game is a greater floor-raiser than KG's so it doesn't surprise me that Dirk had more team success than KG when they each had less than their best supporting casts, but KG certainly seems like a higher ceiling raiser in the majority of roster constructions so Dirk's floor raising capability makes him the obvious choice imo to start a franchise with, but not an obvious choice over who had the better career.

And I'm truly baffled by anyone and everyone who thinks its a simple, clearcut choice between these two players.

At the time (06&07) sure they were title contenders Dirk just disappointed in the 06 finals. And had one of the most embarrassing series of an MVP i can remember losing to an 8th seed as a 1 seed. Thats all on Dirk....

Those teams had no buisness getting out of the first round. The talent was mediocre at best. How anyone can think that this was a "title contending" team is doing nothing but playing the hindsight is 20/20 card.

Eh, not really. You can have a lower peak but be the better player anyway. Dirk had maybe 3 or 4 playoff runs that were absolutely magical and '11 was one of them. For most of his career Dirk is performing like his offensive superstar self and staying short of mythical outbursts, For that reason, I would take KG.

That still doesn't really make sense. Dirk to you had the higher peak, and as you say 3-4 "magical playoff runs", while Kg has maybe 2 very good to great runs. So Dirk has multiple playoff runs better than Kg with a higher peak and comparable longevity yet he's ranked lower?

Like I've said I consider KG to be the better player outside of Dirk's magical runs where he has a case to surpass KG. This out of careers that are some 20 seasons long with a couple decline seasons and a few rookie/dev/pre-relevance type seasons. That's a total of about 4/12 instances (at very best) I'd expect to pick Dirk over KG. This is KG over Dirk at least 67% of the time and KG appears to have some ~15 all star games in comparison to Dirk's ~13. In addition to this there is a case where some years KG's full defensive impact and the true longevity of his defensive aptitude may have been unnoticed as he spent time on bad teams, and yet KG appears to be significantly ahead in MVP shares.

So as far as the question goes, it did make me look back and think I'd rather have Dirk for 1 playoff run, but for franchise building/career purposes, KG still has a very strong body of work that is extremely difficult to surpass.

Yeah except for the fact that Dirk led a franchise to a decade of 50+ win seasons while averaging 25+/10+ during the playoffs and being a substantially better scorer than KG all things considered.

[O_6]

Using Doc MJ's spreadsheet, this is how they were seen on RealGM since '06.

2006: Dirk (49th) -- KG (25th)
2008: Dirk (41st) -- KG (20th)

2011: Dirk (17th) -- KG (14th)
2014: Dirk (16th) -- KG (11th)
2017: Dirk (17th) -- KG (12th)

I think the general consensus was that KG was the better player historically before Dirk's epic 2011 run made it a debate. The RealGM Top 100 voting over the last decade backs that opinion up.

Personally, I voted for KG but it is definitely a very real discussion in my opinion. I think Dirk going toe to toe with Duncan in the '06 playoffs is the moment that made me realize that Dirk was an all-timer with an argument for best PF in the game over Duncan/KG. But I still would've ranked Dirk as the 3rd best PF in the league at that time.

Dirk's '11 was epic and I love how that title has changed his legacy so much. But as an overall player, I think KG had the more impressive career despite Dirk's far superior scoring.

[Eglend]

I really shouldn't have to dignify the tired tripe of boiling Dirk's career down to the 07 1st round. But fine. Let's take a real look at it.

On Jan 16th, 2007 the Warriors made a blockbuster trade bringing in Capt Jack and Al Harrington. They played the Mavs 4 times in the RS winning all 4 meetings. They went into the playoffs winning 9 out of their last 10 games. This wasn't just an 8th seed vs a 1 seed. Everyone knew this was a dangerous matchup for Dallas. Should they have still won? Yeah they should have, but the Warriors played great, Avery got his ass handed to him by Nellie going away from playing big which won Dallas those 67 games to play smallball against at the time the king of smallball in Nellie.

So to sum up, the Mavs went 67-11 against every team but GSW and went 2-8 against them. The Warriors were just a problem for them.

Now let's get to Dirk. He's awful in games 1 and 6. There is no getting around it and when your best player is that bad 2 times in a 7 game series against a team that has owned you all year its impossible to win. See Lebron vs Dallas in 2011 where the Mavs won 6 out of 8 total meetings against the Heat, they were a bad matchup for the Heat and Lebron didn't show up in 4th quarters all series, you can't win like that.

But the other 4 games Dirk does this:

23/7 +13
20/12 -13
23/15 +3 (in a loss)
30/12 +15

In other words you are convinced that 2 awful games against the worst possible matchup should be all that matters in his career despite the rest of that series being offensively as good or better as ANY series Kevin Garnett ever had.

Sorry but that's just absurd. It would be like saying Dirk destroyed KG's Wolves the only time they matched up in the playoffs so that's all that matters. Let's ignore the other 2 decades of their careers and focus on that.

I honestly can't believe this is still a thing. Yes he played bad. Yes it was embarrasing. No it wasn't nearly as bad as its made out to be if you apply even a hint of context. And we could take every player and pick out their worst moment and create false narratives, but why would we?

And even that doesn't touch the fact that Dirk's father had to undergo serious surgery during the series, iirc it was very late in the evening before game 6 in another continent. As for game 1, Avery made the worst coaching decision I've ever seen in the playoffs and tried to beat the Warriors at small ball by playing Dirk at center with personnel that weren't equipped to do so. Obviously Dirk should get some blame here, but I think it's blown out of proportion, his series against the Rockets in 2005 was far worse imo, but that doesn't get brought up because of the narrative factor.

[Clyde Frazier]

At the time (06&07) sure they were title contenders Dirk just disappointed in the 06 finals. And had one of the most embarrassing series of an MVP i can remember losing to an 8th seed as a 1 seed. Thats all on Dirk....

People always say how that was a bad matchup for the Mavs, but that doesn't excuse Dirk's sh*t individual play.

We've been over this several times... at that point in his career, smaller athletic defenders irritated him, and nelson literally knew avery's gameplan. The guy changed his game that off season and basically became that much more deadly as a scorer, where bigger guys were too slow against him and smaller guys were no match. He was extremely patient in getting into his moves and was pretty much unflappable from 08 on, especially in the playoffs. If he doesn't win that title in 2011 ignorant people would still be spewing their hate based on that 1 series.