RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #31

[pandrade83]

... but for "greatest of all time" Cousy needs to be included ASAP. A legend in the 50s, who overshadowed Mikan with ease. Really getting overlooked.

Vote: Cousy
Alt: Hondo
HM: Baylor

Mikan was named the greatest player in the history of the game . . . in a poll done after 1965. (Memory, couldn't find the link). Cousy was a popular player and a genuine star in the 50s. He never "overshadowed Mikan with ease."

In 1965 Wilt (or at least Russell) should've won it. Mikan called Russell the GOAT while russell was still in college.

However, in the 80s/90s nobody was showing videos of Mikan. Cousy is the face of the 50s and the pre Wilt NBA, and only by researching could you learn about Mikan.

I really hope Hondo doesn't slip out and lose all his alternate votes in round 1. Seems like Baylor is making a push here too.

Second Outside in the discussions about Baylor in the last thread. Seems like Baylor is hugely underrated, really a toss-up between him and Hondo for me. I prefer Hondo only because of his defensive prowess and his team-first mentality. He did a lot of hustle work without any drama even as a star, and led a good locker room in the post-russell era.

I like Rick Barry a lot, and normally have him higher than this, but can't have him before Cousy/Hondo/Baylor. If this were a "best player" thread, I'd drop Cousy out of this... but for "greatest of all time" Cousy needs to be included ASAP. A legend in the 50s, who overshadowed Mikan with ease. Really getting overlooked.

Vote: Cousy
Alt: Hondo
HM: Baylor

Here's the gist of why I'm not on the Cousy train:

Let's look at his first 6 years before Russell - when the league was for all intents & purposes, still segregated.

If you "modernize" that league - you have a 16 team league made up of white American born players. There's a little over 40 such guys in the modern NBA. You don't even have enough guys currently in the league to fill out the starting lineups. Now you have guys like Louisville star Luke Hancock who sits on our local ESPN Channel playing in this league. Gordon Hayward & Kevin Love are the best players in this league for sure.

That's a simplified way of describing environment Cousy started in - with nutritional benefits. So why didn't he dominate? Why were the Celtics on the treadmill of mediocrity? Why couldn't they even make a Finals?

Dolph Schayes won a ring and made it to the Finals multiple times in this scenario. For that hypothetical league I described, Cousy is basically JJ or Korver. I'm going to vote for Cousy to be in the Top 100 - but it's for pioneer purposes; he's the first point guard to be one of the best players in the league.

Schayes & Arizin will be the next 50's players to get my vote. I can see a more clear impact on winning from what they did and if I'm building a team in the 50's, I'd rather build around those guys than Cousy. Each of them truly led a squad to a chip in the 50's - something Cousy didn't do. The metrics we do have are scarce but don't tell me Cousy had a bigger impact than those two.

Cousy isn't a vote for "best player of the 50s". Greatest and best are not synonymous. Jessie Owens isn't the best athlete to have competed in USA track and field by any means, but he sure has a strong argument for the greatest. Cousy did things for the league and the NBA that impacted the whole league and the game of competitive basketball.

That's why he's in my Top 100 - it doesn't make him better than his contemporaries. If you're not better than you're contemporaries, I'm not voting you ahead of them - period. By this logic, Nash or Dirk should be ahead of Duncan. Nash had a tremendous impact on the way basketball is played and dirk had a huge impact on how we think about floor spacing and where bigs can shoot from - Duncan was "just" another great big man. That doesn't make Nash Or dirk better than Duncan though and I really question this line of reasoning

[pandrade83]

I really hope Hondo doesn't slip out and lose all his alternate votes in round 1. Seems like Baylor is making a push here too.

Second Outside in the discussions about Baylor in the last thread. Seems like Baylor is hugely underrated, really a toss-up between him and Hondo for me. I prefer Hondo only because of his defensive prowess and his team-first mentality. He did a lot of hustle work without any drama even as a star, and led a good locker room in the post-russell era.

I like Rick Barry a lot, and normally have him higher than this, but can't have him before Cousy/Hondo/Baylor. If this were a "best player" thread, I'd drop Cousy out of this... but for "greatest of all time" Cousy needs to be included ASAP. A legend in the 50s, who overshadowed Mikan with ease. Really getting overlooked.

Vote: Cousy
Alt: Hondo
HM: Baylor

Here's the gist of why I'm not on the Cousy train:

Let's look at his first 6 years before Russell - when the league was for all intents & purposes, still segregated.

If you "modernize" that league - you have a 16 team league made up of white American born players. There's a little over 40 such guys in the modern NBA. You don't even have enough guys currently in the league to fill out the starting lineups. Now you have guys like Louisville star Luke Hancock who sits on our local ESPN Channel playing in this league. Gordon Hayward & Kevin Love are the best players in this league for sure.

That's a simplified way of describing environment Cousy started in - with nutritional benefits. So why didn't he dominate? Why were the Celtics on the treadmill of mediocrity? Why couldn't they even make a Finals?

I more or less accept your criticism wrt the league strength in the analogy you've provided. But "on the treadmill of mediocrity"? That seems a bit of a skewed narrative.


Definition of "mediocre": of moderate or low quality, value, ability.
The Celtics from '51-'56 were a combined 241-181 (.571--->that's about 47 wins in an 82-game season), never had a losing record (one year at .500 was the worst), were in the division finals three years, and [more specifically where Cousy's contributions are concerned] were the #1 offense in the league three times (2nd another year).

To me, the above does not fit the definition of mediocre.

And certainly not making the finals does not qualify "mediocrity". Could this be used to question whether Cousy was a transcendent or super-dominant player in his own time, sure I suppose. I wouldn't try to argue that Cousy ever was that level of player. But let's find the accurate middle-ground.

Fair point. Mediocrity was probably the wrong word there. But not getting to the Finals - and not being a serious threat to make it either in a league of that quality is fairly damning. On the times they did make it to the Eastern Finals, they never led the series nor did they ever push it to a decisive game.

Let's use the treadmill of "good but not threatening" instead as a compromise.

[scrabbarista]

31. John Havlicek

32. Elgin Baylor

I. Among remaining players, these two are 2nd and 3rd, respectively, in all-time postseason production (points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks). (Tony Parker is first.) This is in spite of the fact that when they played there were fewer rounds and fewer games per round. Simply put, these are the two best (career) postseason performers remaining - especially when we consider that for much of their careers (all of Baylor's), blocks and steals were not even recorded.

II. These two are 1st and 2nd among remaining players when it comes to honors and awards received. Elgin Baylor was a Top 5 MVP candidate 7 times - compare that to 1 for Pippen and 2 for Curry. Havlicek, meanwhile, made 19 All-NBA and All-Defensive teams.

III. Havlicek was the best player on at least 1.5 championship teams. (I've seen one RGMer in these threads say "as many as 4" - he was an 8-time champion.) [Pippen had 0, and as someone who saw his whole prime, I don't believe he was the caliber of player who could have ever been the best player on a title team.] Only Isiah Thomas is left to match him, but consider the career production of Hondo vs. Thomas:

RS:
Hondo = 41,109
Thomas = 33,471

PS:
Hondo = 5,862
Thomas = 4,044

That's at least a 20% advantage in both comparisons, just eye-balling it. A huge margin. And for the players who can compete with Havlicek's career totals (there are only a handful left at most: Gilmore, Pierce, and two or three others), they don't come close to his championship pedigree.

[penbeast0]

I'll try to post longer later today, but by position those I'm considering -

PG - Frazier/Kidd/Payton/IT
SG - Reggie/Clyde/Gervin
SF - Baylor/Barry/Hondo
PF - McHale (and I am willing to bet I'll be the first to nominate Rodman in this project)
C - Gilmore/Thurmond/Dikembe

And then by era, the next few that will come up:

50's - Dolph/Arizin
60's - Thurmond/Hondo/Baylor
70's - Barry/Gervin/Gilmore/Frazier/Reed
80's - Drexler/McHale/IT
90's - Payton/Reggie/Dikembe/Rodman
00's - Kidd/Westbrook/Ginobili/Howard/Pierce
Missing anyone?

Cowens? Unseld? Hayes? Billups? Mel Daniels? Moncrief (if you don't mind abbreviated careers)?

[trex_8063]

For Cousy supporters (or anyone really): what kind of separation do you see between him and Davies?

Pretty substantial, and to some degree it's maybe just bad luck for Davies in not being born a bit later (since this project is basically only covering from '47 on). He was unfortunately already fading due to age by the time the shotclock came about. I have a feeling he WOULD be held in roughly the same tier as Cousy if he were born 8-10 years later, but.......he wasn't.

His post-1946 career doesn't stack up very well next to Cousy's.

[Outside]

I'll try to post longer later today, but by position those I'm considering -

PG - Frazier/Kidd/Payton/IT
SG - Reggie/Clyde/Gervin
SF - Baylor/Barry/Hondo
PF - McHale (and I am willing to bet I'll be the first to nominate Rodman in this project)
C - Gilmore/Thurmond/Dikembe

And then by era, the next few that will come up:

50's - Dolph/Arizin
60's - Thurmond/Hondo/Baylor
70's - Barry/Gervin/Gilmore/Frazier/Reed
80's - Drexler/McHale/IT
90's - Payton/Reggie/Dikembe/Rodman
00's - Kidd/Westbrook/Ginobili/Howard/Pierce
Missing anyone?

I suppose I'm more of an outlier, but I have quite a few guys ahead of some of the players you mention. For example, I don't have Pierce until #57 (I'm not a huge fan of his pre-KG years) or Mutumbo until #72 (he's given too much credit for simple longevity; by that standard, make room for Kevin Willis). Howard is a polarizing guy, and I'm not on the Dwight train (I have him at #90).

A few guys you don't mention -- Cowens, Hayes, Worthy, Wilkins, Sam Jones, Lenny Wilkins.

As I've pointed out, my list is more flexible than most, and I've adjusted it significantly based on the arguments presented. My positions for players like Pierce and Mutumbo will likely change. But I still consider many other guys better candidates.

As far as centers go, Thurmond is next on my list -- he'll be my passion project -- followed by Cowens, Reed, Unseld, Parish, then Gilmore. I'm open to moving Artis up, and his longevity may be what gets him there, but I consider those other guys better all-around players.

[Pablo Novi]

Vote: Baylor
Alternate: Havlicek

Same votes that I've had for a while now. I hope it's finally time for one of them to get in. Good discussion about Baylor in the last thread.

About Baylor:

RS career averages of 27.4 points (3rd all time), 13.5 rebounds (10th), 4.3 assists
PS career averages of 27.0 points (7th), 12.9 rebounds (13th), 4.0 assists
RS career totals of 23,149 points (34th), 11,463 rebounds (27th, 1st among SFs), 3650 assists in 846 games
Had two postseasons when he averaged over 38 PPG (4th and 5th)
Holds the finals records for points in a game -- 61
10th all time in career finals PPG -- 26.4
17 50-point RS games (4th)
Played in 44 finals games (11th)
Averaged 19.8 rebounds in 1960-61 -- only five players have done better (Wilt, Russell, Thurmond, Pettit, Lucas)

There isn't anyone left who can match Baylor's combination of peak, impact, all-around game, career production, longevity, and PS resume. Some beat him in a particular category but come up short in multiple others. Barry is the guy who I think comes closest in terms of peak and impact, and he does have that 1975 title run, but closer examination of his career shows multiple seasons of significantly reduced production.

Recommended viewing:

Watch on YouTube

Now that Pippen's in, we can hopefully dispense with the Havlicek-Pippen conversation. One of Baylor's strengths is his versatility, but Havlicek is even better, being the perfect plug-and-play guy for any position. Was the best player on multiple finals teams and the second best player on many championship teams. The ultimate character guy.

VOTE: Elgin Baylor
Alt: Bob Cousy
H.M.: Rick Barry
Baylor and Cousy revolutionized their respective positions (perhaps like no one since). Both had TEN ALL-NBA 1st-Team selections (Cousy also had 2 2nd-Team selections). For me this says that Baylor had 10 Great Years and Cousy 12 Great Years - and no player remaining (except Barry) even comes close to that.

Barry had NINE ALL-League 1st-Team selections (and, we can assume that had the NBA not robbed him of one of his Peak-Prime years) he would have had a TENTH.

Imo, you can not ask for much more from a player than dominating HIS POSITION during HIS ERA - these 3 guys did that in spades.

[eminence]

For Cousy supporters (or anyone really): what kind of separation do you see between him and Davies?

Pretty substantial, and to some degree it's maybe just bad luck for Davies in not being born a bit later (since this project is basically only covering from '47 on). He was unfortunately already fading due to age by the time the shotclock came about. I have a feeling he WOULD be held in roughly the same tier as Cousy if he were born 8-10 years later, but.......he wasn't.

His post-1946 career doesn't stack up very well next to Cousy's.

Does Davies have some pre-NBL seasons? I thought he only missed out on his rookie season with this project.

And for those not in the know a 1x MVP, 5x 1st teamer, 2x 2nd teamer, and the only non-Mikan title of the Mikan era (admittedly favorable circumstances). Seemed to consistently lead his team to great results.

[trex_8063]

Fair point. Mediocrity was probably the wrong word there. But not getting to the Finals - and not being a serious threat to make it either in a league of that quality is fairly damning.

Perhaps, at least as far as his candidacy at THIS stage of the project is concerned. As much as I like Cousy (one of my all-time favorite players), and as much as I think he's maligned to an unfair degree on this forum, I'm not willing to support him here either.
When we get out nearer to 40-50 or after, all candidates will be decidedly imperfect and have multiple bits of "damning" evidence which could be brought forth against them.

[trex_8063]

For Cousy supporters (or anyone really): what kind of separation do you see between him and Davies?

Pretty substantial, and to some degree it's maybe just bad luck for Davies in not being born a bit later (since this project is basically only covering from '47 on). He was unfortunately already fading due to age by the time the shotclock came about. I have a feeling he WOULD be held in roughly the same tier as Cousy if he were born 8-10 years later, but.......he wasn't.

His post-1946 career doesn't stack up very well next to Cousy's.

Does Davies have some pre-NBL seasons? I thought he only missed out on his rookie season with this project.

And for those not in the know a 1x MVP, 5x 1st teamer, 2x 2nd teamer, and the only non-Mikan title of the Mikan era (admittedly favorable circumstances). Seemed to consistently lead his team to great results.

Yeah fair enough. I don't think we can count his NBL title in 1946 (as we're not considering previous to that for anyone else), but his 1947 NBL MVP is fair game.

That he, Wanzer, and Risen managed to sneak in the only non-Laker BAA/NBA title that occurred in the Mikan era is an impressive achievement.

[pandrade83]

Fair point. Mediocrity was probably the wrong word there. But not getting to the Finals - and not being a serious threat to make it either in a league of that quality is fairly damning.

Perhaps, at least as far as his candidacy at THIS stage of the project is concerned. As much as I like Cousy (one of my all-time favorite players), and as much as I think he's maligned to an unfair degree on this forum, I'm not willing to support him here either.
When we get out nearer to 40-50 or after, all candidates will be decidedly imperfect and have multiple bits of "damning" evidence which could be brought forth against them.

Once we hit the 40's, this starts to get very subjective. The range at which a player ranks for an individual is going to have very high variance and we will have a pretty clear view into what everyone's biases are and what things they value (or don't).

The quality of competition and his team achievements in that context (or lack of) are going to weigh heavily on me against other players I start to evaluate. But I know others place a lesser importance on league strength than me - and that's OK.

The 40's on is what I think will be the most fun part of this.

[trex_8063]

Fair point. Mediocrity was probably the wrong word there. But not getting to the Finals - and not being a serious threat to make it either in a league of that quality is fairly damning.

Perhaps, at least as far as his candidacy at THIS stage of the project is concerned. As much as I like Cousy (one of my all-time favorite players), and as much as I think he's maligned to an unfair degree on this forum, I'm not willing to support him here either.
When we get out nearer to 40-50 or after, all candidates will be decidedly imperfect and have multiple bits of "damning" evidence which could be brought forth against them.

Once we hit the 40's, this starts to get very subjective. The range at which a player ranks for an individual is going to have very high variance and we will have a pretty clear view into what everyone's biases are and what things they value (or don't).

The quality of competition and his team achievements in that context (or lack of) are going to weigh heavily on me against other players I start to evaluate. But I know others place a lesser importance on league strength than me - and that's OK.

The 40's on is what I think will be the most fun part of this.

I agree. Even here, I feel like I'm already just kinda throwing darts; there are [at least] four candidates for this spot (Havlicek, Kidd, Gilmore, Drexler) for whom I honestly don't feel strongly about one over another, and would be happy if they went the next four places in any order. I'd fairly content with either one of Baylor or Payton, too, fwiw.

Most places from here on out will be kinda like that for me; after a certain point there's just so little separating one place from the next.

[janmagn]

I'm interested on Pippen and Barry's case over Baylor. Baylor seemed like the better player, so what takes them over him?

Lähetetty minun LG-H440n laitteesta Tapatalkilla

[Pablo Novi]

Post#43 » by Pablo Novi » Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:38 am

penbeast0 wrote:
Do you think this creates a better GOAT list than the MVP award shares?

Pablo Novi wrote:
Elsewhere I've tried to make the case for why ALL-League selections are much more valuable than MVPs an thus a much better criteria for building a GOAT list. (The two main points: The ALL-League selection process is much, much broader AND deals with players by "position": Guards, Forwards, Center; and, historically speaking, I believe the MVP award has been flawed a number of times; whereas I've never had any BIG problems with the ALL-League selections over the last 58 years.


penbeast0 wrote:
By 1st team awards (total awards, then 2nd team as tiebreakers):
1. Kobe Bryant
2. Karl Malone
3. LeBron James
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. TIm Duncan
6 (tie). Bob Cousy
6 (tie). Jerry West
8 (tie). Michael Jordan
8 (tie). Bob Pettit
10. Elgin Baylor
11. Oscar Robertson
12 (tie). Larry Bird
12 (tie). Magic Johnson
14. Shaquille O'Neal
15. Wilt Chamberlain
16. Dolph Schayes
17. Hakeem Olujawon
18. George Mikan
19. Julius Erving
20. Charles Barkley
21. Rick Barry
22. George Gervin
23. Dwight Howard
24. Kevin Durant
25. Jason Kidd

clyde21 wrote:
Image


Pablo Novi wrote:
The ONE "slight" problem with your top list is that it does NOT represent MY METHODOLOGY.
I don't use ONLY 1st-Team selections; I also include (to a lesser extent; about 60% historically) 2nd-Team selections (and to a lesser extent still: about 60% historically) 3rd-Team selections. Throw in my adjustments for the ever-increasing DEPTH of Top Players (and over-all play of course) and you get:

Column 1: My INITIAL (ALL-League selections-based) Ranking: Column 2: "PTS" (mostly 5 "Pts" for 1st-Team; 3 "Pts" for 2nd-Team ... Column 3: "#" = INITIAL GOAT RANK BY POSITION. Column 4: Player Name

. # .. "PTS" . Pos# .. P L A Y E R
. 1 ... 64.5 ..... 1 ... Abdul-Jabbar, Kareem
. 2 ... 63.9 ..... 1 ... Bryant, Kobe
. 3 ... 62.6 ..... 1 ... Duncan, Tim
. 4 ... 62.6 ..... 2 ... Malone, Karl
. 5 ... 61.0 ..... 1 ... James, LeBron
. 6 ... 55.0 ..... 2 ... West, Jerry (N.B. I have him as a SG rather than as a PG)
. 7 ... 53.0 ..... 2 ... Erving, Julius
. 8 ... 53.0 ..... 3 ... Jordan, Michael
. 9 ... 51.5 ..... 2 ... O'Neal, Shaquille
10 ... 50.0 ..... 1 ... Robertson, Oscar
11 ... 49.0 ..... 2 ... Johnson, Magic
12 ... 48.0 ..... 3 ... Bird, Larry
13 ... 46.2 .... 4 ... Baylor, Elgin
14 ... 44.5 ..... 3 ... Pettit, Bob
15 ... 43.9 ..... 3 ... Olajuwon, Hakeem
16 ... 42.5 ..... 4 ... Chamberlain, Wilt
17 ... 42.5 .... 5 ... Barry, Rick
18 ... 41.3 ..... 4 ... Barkley, Charles
19 ... 40.5 .... 3 ... Cousy, Bob
20 ... 39.9 ..... 5 ... Nowitzki, Dirk
21 ... 33.0 ..... 5 ... Malone, Moses
22 ... 31.9 ..... 4 ... Stockton, John
23 ... 31.9 ..... 6 ... Garnett, Kevin
24 ... 31.7 ..... 6 ... Robinson, David
25 ... 31.4 ..... 7 ... Howard, Dwight
26 ... 31.3 ..... 4 ... Gervin, George
27 ... 31.0 ..... 6 ... Durant, Kevin
28 ... 30.8 ..... 5 ... Paul, Chris
29 ... 30.5 ..... 8 ... Russell, Bill
30 ... 28.2 ..... 7 ... Schayes, Dolph
31 ... 28.0 ..... 6 ... Kidd, Jason
32 ... 27.9 ..... 7 ... Payton, Gary
33 ... 25.6 ..... 8 ... Iverson, Allen
34 ... 24.2 ..... 5 ... Wade, Dwyane
35 ... 24.1 ..... 9 ... Nash, Steve
36 ... 23.6 ..... 7 ... Pippen, Scottie
37 ... 23.0 ..... 9 ... Ewing, Patrick
38 ... 22.5 .... 10 ... Frazier, Walt
39 ... 22.1 ..... 8 ... McGrady, Tracy
40 ... 22.0 .... 11 .. Thomas, Isiah
41 ... 22.0 .... 12 .. Westbrook, Russell
42 ... 20.0 .... 10 .. Gilmore, Artis
43 ... 19.5 .... 13 .. Sharman, Bill
44 ... 19.3 ..... 9 ... Wilkins, Dominique
45 ... 19.0 .... 11 .. Mikan, George
46 ... 18.5 .... 14 .. Archibald, Nate "Tiny"
47 ... 18.0 ..... 6 ... Moncrief, Sidney
48 ... 17.5 ..... 8 ... Lucas, Jerry
49 ... 17.5 ..... 7 ... Greer, Hal
50 ... 17.5 ..... 8 ... Westphal, Paul

To me, for an INITIAL DRAFT - this is one very good list!
Now, keep in mind that I ALWAYS have included two more steps; with the 2nd Step addressing ALL other non-ALL-League selection factors; and the 3rd Step "allowing" for the movement of any player up or down my GOAT list by approximately 1 positional-ranking* - and I think it's a darned good system; producing "worthy" results.

The two most important examples of "1 up or down GOAT-positional shifts": MJ lists here at SG#3 (with my assumption that Jerry West is an SG). But his "Points" total is about the same as West's - so taking all the non ALL-League selection factors into account - MJ jumps past Kobe and my GOAT Top 3 SGs are:
MJ then Kobe then Jerry West.

Wilt is just behind Hakeem. So, Wilt jumping up past Shaq as GOAT #2 Center is "allowed" under my system. MY GOAT Centers then are:
KAJ, Wilt, Shaq, Bill Russell **, Hakeem

Bill Russell is THE ONE case where it MIGHT APPEAR that I allow myself a more than 1-positional-ranking shift. But as a HUGE part of Step 2, those 11 Chips in 13 years say he should pass the following Centers ahead of him on my INITIAL GOAT List: DHoward, DRob & Moses (in ascending order).

Btw, my INTENT has always been to do an INITIAL GOAT list based on "ALL-League" selection "Shares" - to see how that might look; but I can't find the actual voting (as opposed to the results of that voting) for most of the years prior to the 1986 season).
------------
LATE ADD:
I've made two MINOR CHANGES to the earlier version of this post:
1) I've reformatted my INITIAL GOAT listing (so it's easier to read, hopefully). (I replaced all the"!" with "...")

2) I've also added a note about #6, Jerry West based on four things:
a) a quote from Gail Goodrich, who said (paraphrased slightly) : "When we played together, I was the Point Guard & Jerry West was the Shooting Guard". (They played together for about half of Jerry West's seasons);

b) Most of the GOAT lists I've seen have Jerry West classified as a SG;

c) Jerry's stats were more SG-like than PG-like, imo; and

d) There is already a decided preponderance of PGs over SGs in this list - so it helps to balance that a bit.
----------------
The above is a copy-and-past of Post #43 in this thread: Re: Top 25 players of all time based on MVP shares viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1605350&start=40#start_here

Here I'd just like to add three of additional points:
1) My INITIAL GOAT ranking system is based ONLY on REGULAR SEASON ALL-League selections AND tries to include fair balance between: positions, decades and Leagues (I believe it does this better than any other system I've seen);

2) A "PERFECT GOAT CAREER" would get you exactly 100 "Points" - 20 years of ALL-League 1st-Team selections (this number, 100, naturally is quite useful for both comparing players' actual results with a would-be "perfect career); and for comparing players' actual results with each other's).

3) Here is my "pro-rating" system for assigning "Points" based on ALL-League selections PER DECADE:

20170731 Pablo’s Pro-Rating Per Decade:

Increase
% Per ...... ”Points” Per
Decade ..... ALL-League: ........................... "Pts" Per
... DECADE . 1st-Tm; 2d-Tm; 3d-Tm ............... All Tms ... Yr ... Decade
xxx 1930 !! ... 0.33 .. 0.17 ..... x ................... 0.50 ...... 2.5 ... ... 5
300 1940 !! ... 1.33 .. 0.67 ..... x ................... 2.00 ..... 10.0 ... 100
125 1950 !! ... 3 ...... 1.5 ...... x ................... 4.50 ..... 22.5 ... 225
66. 1960 !! ... 5 ...... 2.5 ....... x .................. 7.50 ..... 37.5 ... 375
10. 1970 !! ... 5 ...... 2.5 .... 0.75 ................. 8.25 ..... 41.3 ... 412.5
9.1 1980 !! ... 5 ...... 3 ...... 1.0 ................... 9.00 ..... 45.0 ... 450
3.3 1990 !! ... 5 ...... 3 ...... 1.3 ................... 9.30 ..... 46.5 ... 465
2.7 2000 !! ... 5 ...... 3 ...... 1.55 .................. 9.55 ..... 47.8 ... 477.5
2.6 2010 !! ... 5 ...... 3 ...... 1.8 ................... 9.80 ..... 49.0 ... 490

........................................................ so far 1938-2017 ! 2,902 Total "Points"
........................................................ soon . 1938-2019 ! 3,000 Total "Points"

FUTURE?
... DECADE . 1st-Tm; 2d-Tm; 3d-Tm; 4th-Tm ... All Tms ... Yr ... Decade
2.6 2020 !! ... 5 ...... 3 ...... 1.8 ...... 0.25 ..... 10.10 ..... 50.3 ... 502.5
2.5 2030 !! ... 5 ...... 3 ...... 1.8 ...... 0.50 ..... 10.30 ..... 51.5 ... 515
2.4 2040 !! ... 5 ...... 3 ...... 1.8 ...... 0.75 ..... 10.60 ..... 52.8 ... 527.5
2.4 2050 !! ... 5 ...... 3 ...... 1.8 ...... 1.00 ..... 10.80 ..... 54.0 ... 540

[Lou Fan]

These next 4 spots for me are a toss up between Gary Payton, Jason Kidd, John Havlicek, and Clyde Drexler.
Kidd: He's an elite defender and rebounder at his position and obviously an ATG player/passer on the fastbreak. He took the Nets to back to back Finals while leading the team in points, assists, and steals. The big drawback for Kidd is his lack of a pull up jumper. He just never learned how to score off the dribble, except layups/dunks, and that really hurt his teams in the halfcourt. 87% of his 3s were assisted on which clearly shows he wasn't creating his own jumpers. I do value his championship as a starter on the Mavs. His very solid post prime seasons bump his case. His relatively high turnover numbers don't really bug me as they were a necessary byproduct of his risky mindset that made him so brilliant as a passer. drza had a great post talking about Kidd's impact a few posts back read that for more.
Hondo: It's finally time to consider him now that Pippen is off the board as I believe Pippen was just a new and improved Hondo. Hondo worked his *** off at all times on the court and his effort really showed defensively. He proved that he could be the man as he won championships without Russell. His accolades are off the charts with 11 All-NBAs 8 All-Defensive Teams 8 rings and a FInals MVP. It will soon be time for the second greatest number 2 of all time.
Payton: I want to vote for him here but his playoff fails, specifically those in 94 and 95, really give me pause. The Denver series was flat out embarrassing and he got schooled by Van Exel (who was only in his second year) the next year. The Sonics might have been the best team in the league those years and they blew their best shot at a title. GP got his ring as the 4th/5th best player on the Heat which helps a little bit but he also lost on the Lakers in 04. Overall I think GP was a pretty good playoff performer but his defeats were ugly and memorable. "The Glove" is easily the GOAT point guard defender and he even one DPOY in 96. He has really good longevity into his 30s and took a team to the finals as the man. 9 All-NBAs and All-Defensive teams show you just how great he was. Peak Payton was an offensive and defensive ace as in 98-00 he led the league twice in OBPM while being selected for the All-Defensive first team all 3 years. He had solid efficiency for his time peaking at 55 ts%.
Drexler: One of the best wings of his time and his 5 All-NBAs sell him short. He led two teams to the finals and was option 1b on the second Rockets championship team. His high points totals combined with low usage rates is impressive. He was pretty efficient as a volume scorer with a career 55 ts%. Peak averages of 27/8/6 show you just how great of a player he was.
In the end I'm not quite sure what to do with these 4 but I'm tentatively going with,
1st Vote: Hondo
2nd Vote: Payton
Both of those are clearly subject to change.

[pandrade83]

These next 4 spots for me are a toss up between Gary Payton, Jason Kidd, John Havlicek, and Clyde Drexler.
Kidd: He's an elite defender and rebounder at his position and obviously an ATG player/passer on the fastbreak. He took the Nets to back to back Finals while leading the team in points, assists, and steals. The big drawback for Kidd is his lack of a pull up jumper. He just never learned how to score off the dribble, except layups/dunks, and that really hurt his teams in the halfcourt. 87% of his 3s were assisted on which clearly shows he wasn't creating his own jumpers. I do value his championship as a starter on the Mavs. His very solid post prime seasons bump his case. His relatively high turnover numbers don't really bug me as they were a necessary byproduct of his risky mindset that made him so brilliant as a passer. drza had a great post talking about Kidd's impact a few posts back read that for more.
Hondo: It's finally time to consider him now that Pippen is off the board as I believe Pippen was just a new and improved Hondo. Hondo worked his *** off at all times on the court and his effort really showed defensively. He proved that he could be the man as he won championships without Russell. His accolades are off the charts with 11 All-NBAs 8 All-Defensive Teams 8 rings and a FInals MVP. It will soon be time for the second greatest number 2 of all time.
Payton: I want to vote for him here but his playoff fails, specifically those in 94 and 95, really give me pause. The Denver series was flat out embarrassing and he got schooled by Van Exel (who was only in his second year) the next year. The Sonics might have been the best team in the league those years and they blew their best shot at a title. GP got his ring as the 4th/5th best player on the Heat which helps a little bit but he also lost on the Lakers in 04. Overall I think GP was a pretty good playoff performer but his defeats were ugly and memorable. "The Glove" is easily the GOAT point guard defender and he even one DPOY in 96. He has really good longevity into his 30s and took a team to the finals as the man. 9 All-NBAs and All-Defensive teams show you just how great he was. Peak Payton was an offensive and defensive ace as in 98-00 he led the league twice in OBPM while being selected for the All-Defensive first team all 3 years. He had solid efficiency for his time peaking at 55 ts%.
Drexler: One of the best wings of his time and his 5 All-NBAs sell him short. He led two teams to the finals and was option 1b on the second Rockets championship team. His high points totals combined with low usage rates is impressive. He was pretty efficient as a volume scorer with a career 55 ts%. Peak averages of 27/8/6 show you just how great of a player he was.
In the end I'm not quite sure what to do with these 4 but I'm tentatively going with,
1st Vote: Hondo
2nd Vote: Payton
Both of those are clearly subject to change.

Payton in closeout/elimination games: 22.8 PPG, 5.8 reb, 8.0 ast, 1.8 stl, 0.2 blk, 2.7 TO, 55.3% TS - all stats from '94-'03.
All Playoff games from '94-'03: 23.5 PPG, 7.8 ast, 5.4 reb, 1.8 stl, 0.3 blk, 3.0 TO, 53% TS.

When I did my own Payton write-up, I definitely acknowledged the Denver & LA Series for sure (see below). But since you mentioned that he's a strong playoff performer, I wanted to put specifics around it.

GP isn't getting any other sort of traction, so I should probably address the two issues likely to crop up:

1) The Denver series. There's no justification for it. It really is indefensible. 3 of those games are in my elimination/closeout records and his 2 worst performances in those types of games were in the Denver series (Games 3 & 5).
1A) The '95 LA Series. Van Exel out played him. Between '94 & '95 these were two years where a Title was in play for Seattle and they didn't just take a dump on the bed, they got up and smeared it on the wall as well

That said - those series did factor into the overall playoff and elimination record I showed above - and the overall track record is strong. It's unfortunate that he peaked later than a lot of other point guards did - and by the time he peaked the talent on him was not championship caliber to say the least; if you consider '99 or 2000 his peak, it was an outright dumpster fire situation.

[O_6]

I believe a couple of the old school guys like Hondo and Baylor deserve to get in next before any post-1980 guys. But as far as the 3pt era players go, I feel like Reggie has an argument for next up. Payton/Kidd were far better creators and defenders than Reggie, but Reggie was just a far superior scorer whose impact on offense was huge. But atleast I can see the Kidd/Payton argument due to the different positions they play and the elite D those 2 brought to the table, Drexler on the otherhand is someone who I don't think belongs ahead of Reggie.

Drexler was a more complete player but Reggie's scoring was just on another level and gives him an argument as more impactful overall.

Reggie's prime was '90-'02 and Drexler's was '85-'97. This is what they averaged during those years...

REGULAR SEASON
Miller ------- 29.0 PP100 -- .619 TS% -- 10.5 TOV% -- 14.6 AST%
Drexler ----- 28.8 PP100 -- .550 TS% -- 12.6 TOV% -- 25.4 AST%

PLAYOFFS
Miller ------- 32.8 PP100 -- .607 TS% -- 8.7 TOV% --- 12.8 AST%
Drexler ----- 27.1 PP100 -- .536 TS% -- 12.4 TOV% -- 26.3 AST%

Reggie is just a better scorer and he destroys Clyde in terms of playoff scoring. +5.7 pints per 100 difference in Reggie's favor on top of the massive efficiency edge. Reggie as a playoff scorer was incredible. The volume combined with the efficiency combined with the low turnover rate. He was also doing this against very good defenses for the most part.

Clyde is a better non-scorer by a mile than Reggie. He could create for others and was a more athletic defender. But his pure scoring skills just were not that impressive in comparison to some other guys being discussed. Clyde is one of the GOAT fastbreak players in NBA history. Dr. J, Barkley, and LeBron are my top 3 open court finishers ever. I think Drexler might be the next guy on that list. He was a Flying Greyhound and very underrated historically in terms of pure athleticism. He didn't have the grace of Dr. J, but he wasn't that far off as an athlete.

But in the halfcourt, he was a limited offensive player for a superstar. REGGIE BLOWS HIM AWAY AS A HALFCOURT SCORER. Drexler's best playoff stretch was in '90-'92 when the Blazers lost in the Finals twice and WCF once. This is what him and Porter averaged in the playoffs during that 3 year stretch...

Porter: 20.2 PPG --- 6.9 APG -- .628 TS%
Drexler: 23.3 PPG -- 7.3 APG -- .537 TS%

Was Drexler really a more valuable offensive player than Porter in '90-'92? Porter was an incredibly efficient PG and seems like a Billups type of underrated offensive star. Porter was the far better halfcourt player of the two during this run.

Drexler was a great talent but I feel like his scoring is overrated and he doesn't belong ahead of Reggie Miller. Reggie's scoring impact was superior on paper, and that doesn't even take into account how much GRAVITY was created by Reggie's dangerous outside shooting. Reggie had insane longevity as well.

Reggie > Drexler imo...

[dhsilv2]

I don't have a lot of time for this, and I don't think i've voted.

1. Hondo
2. Baylor

Reason remains the same as before. While I am suspect of both votes I give Hondo the edge for implied intangibles. Baylor is here because of his early career as I believe his later career ends up turning me more against him than with him.

[Doctor MJ]

... but for "greatest of all time" Cousy needs to be included ASAP. A legend in the 50s, who overshadowed Mikan with ease. Really getting overlooked.

Vote: Cousy
Alt: Hondo
HM: Baylor

Mikan was named the greatest player in the history of the game . . . in a poll done after 1965. (Memory, couldn't find the link). Cousy was a popular player and a genuine star in the 50s. He never "overshadowed Mikan with ease."

In 1965 Wilt (or at least Russell) should've won it. Mikan called Russell the GOAT while russell was still in college.

However, in the 80s/90s nobody was showing videos of Mikan. Cousy is the face of the 50s and the pre Wilt NBA, and only by researching could you learn about Mikan.

I really hope Hondo doesn't slip out and lose all his alternate votes in round 1. Seems like Baylor is making a push here too.

Second Outside in the discussions about Baylor in the last thread. Seems like Baylor is hugely underrated, really a toss-up between him and Hondo for me. I prefer Hondo only because of his defensive prowess and his team-first mentality. He did a lot of hustle work without any drama even as a star, and led a good locker room in the post-russell era.

I like Rick Barry a lot, and normally have him higher than this, but can't have him before Cousy/Hondo/Baylor. If this were a "best player" thread, I'd drop Cousy out of this... but for "greatest of all time" Cousy needs to be included ASAP. A legend in the 50s, who overshadowed Mikan with ease. Really getting overlooked.

Vote: Cousy
Alt: Hondo
HM: Baylor

Here's the gist of why I'm not on the Cousy train:

Let's look at his first 6 years before Russell - when the league was for all intents & purposes, still segregated.

If you "modernize" that league - you have a 16 team league made up of white American born players. There's a little over 40 such guys in the modern NBA. You don't even have enough guys currently in the league to fill out the starting lineups. Now you have guys like Louisville star Luke Hancock who sits on our local ESPN Channel playing in this league. Gordon Hayward & Kevin Love are the best players in this league for sure.

That's a simplified way of describing environment Cousy started in - with nutritional benefits. So why didn't he dominate? Why were the Celtics on the treadmill of mediocrity? Why couldn't they even make a Finals?

Dolph Schayes won a ring and made it to the Finals multiple times in this scenario. For that hypothetical league I described, Cousy is basically JJ or Korver. I'm going to vote for Cousy to be in the Top 100 - but it's for pioneer purposes; he's the first point guard to be one of the best players in the league.

Schayes & Arizin will be the next 50's players to get my vote. I can see a more clear impact on winning from what they did and if I'm building a team in the 50's, I'd rather build around those guys than Cousy. Each of them truly led a squad to a chip in the 50's - something Cousy didn't do. The metrics we do have are scarce but don't tell me Cousy had a bigger impact than those two.

Cousy isn't a vote for "best player of the 50s". Greatest and best are not synonymous. Jessie Owens isn't the best athlete to have competed in USA track and field by any means, but he sure has a strong argument for the greatest. Cousy did things for the league and the NBA that impacted the whole league and the game of competitive basketball.

This is not an influence/importance ranking project.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

[Dr Positivity]

I'm interested on Pippen and Barry's case over Baylor. Baylor seemed like the better player, so what takes them over him?

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With Pippen the case is built on defense, better playmaking (ability to run the offense) and not as high a peak but a consistent career.

Barry is also a better passer and more of a true primary facilitator than Baylor, and is an elite shooter/floor spacer. Barry is the best shooting and passing wing in the league in his time which is a highly valuable combo to structurally build an offense around