Pick: Gary Payton
Alternate: Artis GilmoreMy Top Point Guards left (in order): Payton/Kidd/Frazier
My Top Wings left (in order): Barry/Gervin
My Top Center left: Artis
Addressing all the point guards getting traction:
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The Isiah sectionIf you're taking Isiah here, I understand the case. You're putting all the weight on leadership and playoff clutch performance. Regular season stats don't matter to you and it's hard to build a case around Isiah based on advanced metrics.
So, let's compare playoff results:
During Payton's 10 year prime ('94-'03) he put up 24-8-5, 2 steals, 3 Turnovers & 53% TS.
During Isiah's 10 year prime ('83-'92) he put up 20-9-5, 2 steals, 3.3 Turnovers & 52% TS.
Very comparable - probably a slight edge to Payton but it's close; if the Isiah supporter wanted to call it a wash, I'm OK with that.
Next, let's look at closeout/elimination game performance:
Same time periods -
Isiah put up 21-9-5, 2 steals & 3.1 Turnovers on 50% TS
Payton put up 23-8-6, 2 steals & 2.7 Turnovers on 55% TS
Payton gets a fairly decisive edge here.
Next, let's look at how they performed during the later rounds. For Payton during the prime I referenced, we only have '96-'98 to look at, so we'll compare that against Isiah's '88-'90 perfomance.
Patyon put up 21-7-5, 2 steals, and 2.9 TO on 55% TS
Isiah put up 20-8-5, 2 steals, 3.5 TO on 52% TS
Again - edge goes to Payton - and keep in mind - that Payton was an elite defender and the only PG to win DPOY. He put up better offensive #'s while being his team's defensive anchor.
You won't see D like this on MJ from Isiah.
I know - Isiah won the rings. Did he light it up in the defining games of the Bad Boys' runs where they overcame/held off an obstacle?
'88 vs. Boston when they slayed the Celtic monster, he went 1-11 for 9 points, 9 assists & 5 rebounds. Not a great game - he was lucky that Vinnie & Edwards went off for 39 off the bench & Dantley got 22. He was really lucky that the defense clamped down on Bird (4/17), Parish & Ainge (4 points combined for those two).
In '89 after Magic pulled his hamstring, the series was never in doubt. But in the Final game, the Lakers clinged to a 2 point lead.
Isiah was fine. He went 5-9 for 14 points, 5 ast & 3 reb. But others like Dumars (23 & 6) were more impactful - and Dumars won the FMVP.
In '90, when Detroit held off Chicago for one last time, Isiah was very good - 21, 11 & 8.
He was very good in the closeout game in the Finals vs. Portland too, taking over with 29 points on 13/20 shooting. He did have 7 turnovers which is a bit much but OK.
My point isn't that Isiah was a poor playoff performer; that would be un-true - this isn't to trash him.
The point is that GP was a stronger playoff performer and that Isiah wasn't this killer who dominated every big win either as he is being lionized for. Payton was a better playoff performer and everything we have shows he was the better overall player in the regular season as well.
As to leadership/competitive spirit, Isiah has a case for the GOAT amongst point guards. But it's not like Payton is poor in this area, he's not Chris Paul or anything. His trash talk was a psychological weapon and he is highly respected by his contemporaries and those who followed him.
Stockton: "Consistent, Tremendous Warrior-like play"
Jason Terry: "My idol Gary Payton"
George Karl: "Gary Payton was the best player I ever coached"
SI posted a great article about how Payton had transformed into a strong leader
https://www.si.com/vault/1999/12/20/271562/the-hustler-the-surprising-sonics-are-taking-their-cue-from-brash-gary-payton-who-has-blossomed-into-a-team-leader-as-well-as-the-best-all-around-guard-in-the-gameHad Karl figured out defensive strategy sooner, Seattle could've potentially pulled a monstrous upset over the '96 Chicago Bulls, but alas it wasn't meant to be. Compared to players who we're taking about here, Isiah is as good as you're going to get on the leadership/intangibles component. No one left is better - few are his equal. I'd rate the Glove as above average but not great.
If you're going to take Isiah for his leadership/intangibles, there's a healthy amount of tangibles to overcome first. But let me borrow from a Chuck Klosterman quote in Simmons' book:
"The problem, of course, is my use of the word "tangible". Anything described as tangibly good is inferred to mean intangibly flawed. . . .
His wins validate everything. . . .
The real question is this: who was better in a vacuum? If we erase the social meaning of their careers - in other words, if we ignore the unsophisticated ciche that suggests the only thing valuable about sports is who wins the last game of the season - which of these two men was better at the game?"
The answer is fairly clearly Payton - and that's after engaging Isiah on his turf. Isiah's intangibles will have me taking him over players who were probably statistically better. But I'm not quite to the point of supporting Isiah yet.
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The Cousy SectionLooking at the pre-Russell era, adjusting for nutritional benefits & population growth would basically yield an NBA that had 16 teams composed of all white American born players. Presently there's a little over 40 such players in the real NBA so we don't even have enough players to fill out the starting lineups. This means you have a bunch of guys who aren't making a living playing basketball today playing in this league - we're talking guys like former Louisville stars Kyle Kuric and Luke Hancock. Your best players in that league would be Kevin Love & Gordon Hayward. Cousy couldn't lead a team to the finals in that era and was consistently eliminated by Dolph Schayes - who was the best player on a title team in that era. None of Cousy's contemporaries are getting any support - and some achieved more (see: Schayes).
Then when Russell comes along, Boston starts winning all kinds of championships but the offensive rating drops even as the pace remains relatively constant (an outlier to the fast side) relative to rest of league, so it's fairly obvious that they're winning with defense (i.e. - Russell). For me, it's hard to take Cousy as a candidate at this stage.
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The Kidd sectionJason Kidd is the best regular season point guard left. I'm taking Payton for being the stronger playoff performer in their prime & for being better on intangibles.
Playoffs:
Kidd ('98-'07): 16-9-8, 2 steals, 3.4 TOV, 49% TS
Payton ('94-'03): 24-8-5, 2 steals, 3.0 TOV, 53% TS
Playoffs in clutch/elimination games:
Kidd (same years as above): 17-9-7, 2 steals, 3.7 TOV, 50% TS
Payton (same years as above): 23-8-6, 2 steals, 2.7 TOV, 55% TS
Intangibles:
I view guys competing for the Top 100 spots in 4 categories:
1) Excellent. Their leadership qualities & characteristics had a materially positive impact on those around them; they are effectively a 2nd coach for the team, guys will kill for this player and they embody what it means to be a teammate - these players will be nominated before their playing impact says they should. Remaining example: Isiah Thomas
2) Good. These are strong competitors, they show up in big games, they can be a psychological/emotional leader and they're well respected by their teammates. The difference between this group and the above group is that no one is voting them in early because of it - it's not something where there's reams of quotes available on it. Remaining example: Gary Payton
3) Indifferent/Mixed: They're not hurting the team in the locker room/on the sidelines/off the court but the lack of fire/drive/interaction with others means that they need another emotional leader to reach their potential and/or they're hyper-competitive in a way that hurts the team. Gilmore is an example because of his lack of fire, CP3/Oscar probably hurt their teams based on what we know.
4) Cancerous: They're doing something off the court which causes a major distraction and actively impairs the team's ability to win. The team is not reaching their full potential explicitly because of something this guy does.
This article outlines Kidd's escapades well and while they are slightly overstate the effects, the incidents themselves all happened.
http://thebiglead.com/2014/06/30/jason-kidd-brooklyn-milwaukee-toni-braxton-wife-power-play-failed/There's just too much of Kidd's career where he's in that bottom tier. Gary Payton isn't the best leader of an NBA Team ever, but the difference between Payton & Kidd in this area plus the superior playoff performance gives GP the edge.
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FrazierMy logo shows I'm a Knicks fan.
I respect what's came before my era and have gone back & watched some of those meaningful games from that era. I think Frazier is great - he's a ton of fun to watch. Ultimately, GP gets the edge for longevity. Frazier doesn't really have a useful pre OR post prime.
If we look at his 7 All-D Years as his prime, Payton basically delivers everything Frazier does, plus
2 more of those years. On top of that, we get an extra 5 years of Payton as a functional/useful starter PLUS a 6th man role in Miami where he was pivotal in the two finals.
That's too much of a trade off for me.
I don't think Billups will get enough support to challenge Payton this round and I'm also out of time.
