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40. Elvin Hayes
41. Dolph Schayes

*For combined (RS) points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals, Elvin Hayes is 9th in the history of the NBA and ABA combined. If you aren't giving him consideration around the 40th spot, then career totals should probably not enter into your thought at any point on this list.

*Hayes was the most productive player on the '78 Bullets title team, although Unseld was generally more heralded. By my count, there is only a handful of players remaining who were the best player on a title team, so Hayes at least needs to start receiving consideration.

*Hayes' MVP finishes, in spite of the fact that apparently not a single person with a vote actually liked him:

1971-72 NBA 0.006 (17)
1972-73 NBA 0.021 (10)
1973-74 NBA 0.082 (5)
1974-75 NBA 0.299 (3)
1975-76 NBA 0.018 (8)
1976-77 NBA 0.020 (7)
1978-79 NBA 0.126 (3)

*Hayes also led the league in scoring in '69, and was a 12x All-Star.

For me, his combination of longevity and production for a championship team make him too hard to ignore.

Posted: **Wed Sep 6, 2017 10:57 pm**

scrabbarista wrote:40. Elvin Hayes
41. Artis Gilmore

Gilmore is already in.

Bob Cousy's early to mid 50s years were certainly elite (in a weak league) but I actually have Paul Arizin's 50s run as stronger than Cousy's and Cousy's post-Russell years were characterized by a lot of truly awful playoff inefficiency. Westbrook is interesting too. Short and spectacular, but I can't support someone whose primary argument is his ridiculous point/assist totals when his efficiency and turnovers are so poor; at least not yet. Harden is an efficient scorer but his defense is worse than George Gervin's and his turnovers are equally high. If I am going for a short prime player, it's going to be Sidney Moncrief who was an extremely efficient 20 point/game scorer for the 4-5 years his body held up while also being probably the greatest perimeter man defender in the history of the NBA.

However, there are a lot of wings with long, high scoring careers. The aforementioned Arizin, George Gervin (the most likely to take over a game), Alex English, Reggie Miller, Ray Allen, and Paul Pierce are the ones I look at first, before the inefficiency and poor leadership of an Allen Iverson or Pete Maravich.

Defensive forwards Bobby Jones and Shawn Marion (maybe James Worthy and Larry Nance as well) could also get traction but to me, the best big remaining is probably Kevin McHale. I have questions about his ability to deal with consistent double teams as he played his career next to Larry Bird but I think he showed enough when Bird was injured to trust this. He is also less than stellar as a rebounder and post passer but gives you excellent offense and defense in the post with the ability to also defend well out onto the floor.

Back to McHale/Gervin . . . not worth making Trex redo the whole thing (and it would)
Vote: Kevin McHale
Alternate: George Gervin

Posted: **Wed Sep 6, 2017 11:11 pm**

Wow Thomas 20 spots higher than I'd have expected. And I missed voting!

Vote Reed - I'm going to stick with this one for a bit. MVP, multiple titles, big man with a jumper. While imo Frazier was the better player by a hair, Reed was the captain.

Alt is tough. I'm thinking Howard, Unseld, Cowens, and maybe Iverson. For now lets start the Dwight Howard discussion. All time great defender, well above average scorer at his peak. Took a nice group of not stars but quality players to the finals. Had a legit MVP shot the fell short due to Lebron in 2011. Had a much higher peak than a lot of the people in so far and 8x all nba is more than enough longevity. Think a better Gilmore with a lot more baggage and screws loose.

Alt D Howard

Posted: **Thu Sep 7, 2017 12:05 am**

1st choice: Wes Unseld
Honorable Mention: George Gervin

If you're not giving Unseld a look, you're missing a gem. You're getting a guy who is recognized as a high impact performer (VORP, BPM), was selected to be an MVP, was a strong playoff performer & enjoyed strong team success.

Advanced Metrics

Unseld hit 5+ scores for both BPM & VORP twice - that we know of - one of which didn't come in a double digit WS year. If we make the reasonably safe assumption that he hit those scores in ALL of his double digit WS year, that gives him 5 years of a BPM Score of 5+ and 5 years of a VORP Score of 5+.

What's so impressive about that? If I look at all the players excluding McGrady who got 1st place votes last round, they hit VORP 5+ a combined 6 times* with no other player getting there 3 times and they hit BPM 5+ a combined 3 times.

* - Hayes never got to 10 WS in a pre'74 season so I didn't assume he made it at all prior to '74, Cousy never got to 9 WS even.

It's highly likely that if we had RAPM, the metric would've loved him as well.

MVP
In the '68-'69 season, Unseld was selected MVP over guys who are already in like Wilt, Russell, West, Baylor, Frazier & Hondo. He is clearly well respected by his peers. His team improved by 21 wins without any changes to their core or a coaching change.

Strong playoff performer

In the playoffs, he maintains his strong performance - averaging 10/15/4/with 1.8 TOs (on fairly limited data) which is right on par with his career averages.

The most infamous defeat one of his teams suffer isn't really on him (the '75 Finals). He does his thing - 12-17-4 on 54% TS. That's who he was. Hayes crippled the team offensively - yes, he scored 20 PPG but he shot a miserable TS% of just 46%.

Strong Team Success

Unseld was the team playoff leader in WS and then VORP/BPM for 4 Finals Teams* as he was vital to his teams' playoff success as mentioned by his strong playoff numbers above. Unseld only misses the playoffs once in a strong 13 year career that sees him pace his team in every year but 2 ('74 - injuries & '81 - injuries + final year) in VORP & BPM - and before that in WS.

* - Hayes outpaced Unseld in Playoff VORP; Unseld outpaced Hayes in Playoff BPM as well as regular season VORP and BPM

Unseld would make a fantastic addition to our Top 40. You're getting an MVP who is recognized as a high impact performer by advanced metrics, who had decent longevity, was a strong playoff performer and was the driver of a consistent winner.

You just don't see guys who achieved that much this late; there's guys left who achieved higher peaks, but had much worse longevity - Unseld brings very high impact years over a sustained run as a winner; the really high peak players remaining (Westbrook, Tmac, McAdoo, Walton) can't say that.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sometimes WS, BPM, VORP & RAPM get it wrong. George Gervin is one of those cases. There's a lot of value in having the leading scorer who does so at the efficiency that Gervin achieved. Let's focus in on his scoring title years:

'78 - 27.2 ppg @ +7.9% TS relative to league average; 14.0% TOV - looks high but still 2% below league average
'79 - 29.6 ppg @ +6.1% TS relative to league average; 12.5% TOV
'80 - 33.1 ppg @ +5.4% TS relative to league average; 10.3% TOV
'82 - 32.3 ppg @ +2.3% TS relative to league average; 8.5% TOV

Offensively he's a clear boon to your team.

It translates to winning too - this isn't empty stats by any stretch of the imagination.. The Spurs win their division in 3 of those 4 years and he's anchoring offenses that are top 3 or higher every year from '75-'84 with the lone exception of '81 when they were 4th. The Spurs win 50 games or more in their final 2 ABA years and 5 Division Titles upon entering the league.

His numbers translate well to the post-season averaging 29-7-3, 1 stl & 1 block on 56% TS from '75-'83 and for the intangible guys, it's noteworthy that he's not really being moved around either unlike an Adrian Dantley,

So, with all that, why is he below Unseld? His defensive issues come to play for sure - while I don't think this is a James Harden situation, the defensive metrics we have outside of blocks/steals don't paint him in a positive light at all. Additionally, his impact outside of scoring is a little bit light. A typical year from him aside from the monster scoring is something like 5 reb, 3 ast. On the rare off-night offensively, he's not doing much for you, so he's a little bit of a one trick pony in terms of the ways he impacts the game. It's still immensely valuable and he does it for a long time - but there's a reason the VORP/BPM #'s I wrote above are so glowing for Unseld & not for Gervin. I think the #'s are wrong in regards to Gervin - but I give Unseld a slight edge because he has more than one way he's impacting the game.

Posted: **Thu Sep 7, 2017 2:19 am**

dhsilv2 wrote:Wow Thomas 20 spots higher than I'd have expected. And I missed voting!

Vote Reed - I'm going to stick with this one for a bit. MVP, multiple titles, big man with a jumper. While imo Frazier was the better player by a hair, Reed was the captain.

Alt is tough. I'm thinking Howard, Unseld, Cowens, and maybe Iverson. For now lets start the Dwight Howard discussion. All time great defender, well above average scorer at his peak. Took a nice group of not stars but quality players to the finals. Had a legit MVP shot the fell short due to Lebron in 2011. Had a much higher peak than a lot of the people in so far and 8x all nba is more than enough longevity. Think a better Gilmore with a lot more baggage and screws loose.

Alt D Howard

He is about 20 spots lower than I thought.

1st Vote: Dominique Wilkins - Won Scoring Title, went head to head to Bird in the playoffs and one of the greatest scorers in NBA History. Led team to top 2 seed in stacked East as well.

2nd Vote: Kevin Mchale

Posted: **Thu Sep 7, 2017 2:31 am**

It's hard to see Nique over Alex English for anything other than showmanship. Possibly regular season as their scoring is similar . . . Nique has a slight edge in volume, English in efficiency although English did it as part of an ensemble cast (a fast paced one though) while Nique tended to be an iso scorer. However English also has clear advantages in versatility, playmaking, and defense while Nique was the better rebounder . . . Nique did develop a 3 point shot toward the end of his career while English never did.

But, then it comes to the playoffs and the efficiency difference widens in English's favor while the volume scoring advantage for Wilkins pretty much disappears giving English a clear offensive edge in addition to his superior defense. English's teams had more playoff success as well for what that is worth though neither was on one of the superteams of the era.

Posted: **Thu Sep 7, 2017 2:37 am**

Should be finding some time to hop back in soon, likely not this thread, but hopefully the next one

Posted: **Thu Sep 7, 2017 3:22 am**

JordansBulls wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:Wow Thomas 20 spots higher than I'd have expected. And I missed voting!

Vote Reed - I'm going to stick with this one for a bit. MVP, multiple titles, big man with a jumper. While imo Frazier was the better player by a hair, Reed was the captain.

Alt is tough. I'm thinking Howard, Unseld, Cowens, and maybe Iverson. For now lets start the Dwight Howard discussion. All time great defender, well above average scorer at his peak. Took a nice group of not stars but quality players to the finals. Had a legit MVP shot the fell short due to Lebron in 2011. Had a much higher peak than a lot of the people in so far and 8x all nba is more than enough longevity. Think a better Gilmore with a lot more baggage and screws loose.

Alt D Howard

He is about 20 spots lower than I thought.

1st Vote: Dominique Wilkins - Won Scoring Title, went head to head to Bird in the playoffs and one of the greatest scorers in NBA History. Led team to top 2 seed in stacked East as well.

2nd Vote: Kevin Mchale

lol,

post your real vote now. That was a good one though

Posted: **Thu Sep 7, 2017 3:24 am**

penbeast0 wrote:It's hard to see Nique over Alex English for anything other than showmanship. Possibly regular season as their scoring is similar . . . Nique has a slight edge in volume, English in efficiency although English did it as part of an ensemble cast (a fast paced one though) while Nique tended to be an iso scorer. However English also has clear advantages in versatility, playmaking, and defense while Nique was the better rebounder . . . Nique did develop a 3 point shot toward the end of his career while English never did.

But, then it comes to the playoffs and the efficiency difference widens in English's favor while the volume scoring advantage for Wilkins pretty much disappears giving English a clear offensive edge in addition to his superior defense. English's teams had more playoff success as well for what that is worth though neither was on one of the superteams of the era.

How do you address the east west gap for them? The general view being the east was vastly better than the west.

Posted: **Thu Sep 7, 2017 3:44 am**

dhsilv2 wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:Wow Thomas 20 spots higher than I'd have expected. And I missed voting!

Vote Reed - I'm going to stick with this one for a bit. MVP, multiple titles, big man with a jumper. While imo Frazier was the better player by a hair, Reed was the captain.

Alt is tough. I'm thinking Howard, Unseld, Cowens, and maybe Iverson. For now lets start the Dwight Howard discussion. All time great defender, well above average scorer at his peak. Took a nice group of not stars but quality players to the finals. Had a legit MVP shot the fell short due to Lebron in 2011. Had a much higher peak than a lot of the people in so far and 8x all nba is more than enough longevity. Think a better Gilmore with a lot more baggage and screws loose.

Alt D Howard

He is about 20 spots lower than I thought.

1st Vote: Dominique Wilkins - Won Scoring Title, went head to head to Bird in the playoffs and one of the greatest scorers in NBA History. Led team to top 2 seed in stacked East as well.

2nd Vote: Kevin Mchale

lol,

post your real vote now. That was a good one though

Which one is incorrect here? Can't tell.

Posted: **Thu Sep 7, 2017 3:44 am**

Vote: Wes Unseld
Alt: Kevin McHale

Wes being the only guy left with MVP and a ring edges out McHale a bit imo.

Posted: **Thu Sep 7, 2017 4:04 am**

Looks like Frazier and Isiah snuck in right in time.

40's and early 50's types. I find these spots interesting as it's very chaotic. There isn't so much of a feel that some guys HAVE to be in right away (Isiah, Barry types), and it's very fluid for debate/argument.

PG
Chauncey Billups
Kevin Johnson
Russell Westbrook

PG spot will be weak for some time, but Billups once he came into his own became one of the most lethal floor generals. Outstanding leader, clutch, intangibles and playoff performer. One of the finest to play in his era. Never a superstar, but always well respected for his ability. Easy leader for perennial 50 W type team or one of the best 2nd stars on strong contenders.

Kevin Johnson - really impressed with peak. Would like to see some more conversation on him. Thought he has a case over Westbrook, etc.

Westbrook - He's still mid career, but with 1 MVP and multiple playoff heroics he's done enough to show himself as solid Top 50 all time candidate.

SG

Reggie Miller
Ray Allen
Allen Iverson
Manu Ginobilli
James Harden
Sidney Moncrief

Reggie Miller is psychological GOAT, and best playoff performer amongst those remaining. I have no doubt in my mind he'd have special attention today unlike the 90's RS rankings.

Ray Allen - Regul8r posted some great stuff on his playoff inconsistencies. Basically a great player who's Top 50 all time, but also wildly inconsistent during the playoffs. Very Anti-Reggie Miller. You can entirely expect for him to be a no show for long parts of the series which hurts team performances.

Allen Iverson - The "worst superstar" if you will. He's the guy we're all bipolar about. I personally like him in Top ~45ish all time. I would give him the nod for bad timing with the kind of game he had, leading to lower efficiency.

Manu Ginobilli - Homer pick, but he's impacted the seasons enough to where I don't feel uncomfortable mentioning him.

James Harden - The best player left, I'd think. I just don't know if his career has been long enough for me.

Sidney - Top tier defender at Payton's level, efficient scoring, etc. The bucks teams were constructed to fall short of the true greats of that era, but Moncrief appears to be a true legend.

SF

Paul Pierce
Tracy McGrady
George Gervin
Dominique Wilkins

Paul Pierce - Loved the guy when he played. His defense is proven, as is his scoring capacities. Never the type to be in a Top 5 type of list, but always lingering around borderline superstar material. Had a couple of great scoring seasons, but I truly believe the two way role he played in 08 is his best fit role to date.

Tracy McGrady - posted on him earlier, but I felt this was really really bad timing with his prime years coinciding with bad teams. The first round exit stigma will always be there, but he has the best peak of anyone left (not including Walton).

George Gervin - Posted on him some in the 30's, but truly feel he's one hell of a scorer whose longevity suffered due to the style of the era he played in. In spite of this, he came in #2 a number of times during MVP talks. Liked what he did for the Spurs. His defense might have been questionable, but his overall impact was appreciated.

Nique - One of the finest scorers till date. I am curious about the "Patrick Ewing' theory applying to him some. Nique has 7 years in good MVP vote standing. I suspect he's a strong candidate for the 40's.

PF

Kevin McHale
Pau Gasol

Along with PG, will be another less discussed position (Heck you could place Pau at Center).

McHale and Pau - I really don't feel these two are that far apart. Perhaps McHale had more prime seasons so you'd give him the nod over Pau, but Pau lasted a good while after the Lakers 2013 disaster and had a bounceback 2015 year under Thibs. If you're considering WIllis Reed types, Gasol's 2 year title run with the Lakers feels superior to Reed's.

C

Willis Reed
Dwight Howard
Alonzo Mourning
Dikembe Mutombo
Dave Cowens

Reed - I get the feel he did a lot of things really well, but nothing ever at a superstar level. Good post game, strong, good rebounding, had all the things required for big men. Showed up in the playoffs and stole an MVP from Frazier.

Dwight Howard - One heck of a run up till 2011 or so, it felt like he would be the type to crack a Top 30 type list rather than Top 50, but he really spiraled with boneheaded chemistry issues. I don't feel compassion for him and wouldn't mind him seeing slip out of Top 50. He did it to himself.

Alonzo Mourning - Can't help but love him. Fierce competitor, put his 100% out, was a great defender, rebounder and 20 point type scorer. His prime impact is similar to Howard, but without all the chemistry issues.

Mutombo - He really longevity'ed himself here. Excellent defensive support his entire career. That being said, he's really not on Howard's level as a player. Respect to the 4 time DPOY, but he's a bit outmatched by others contending in the 40's.

Cowens is a strong 2 way player who is a great 50's and low 40's type candidate. I felt his overall impact was underrated during his era, and we'd truly appreciate him more in the modern era.

Others.

Nate Thurmond

I frankly don't blame players of his era for lower FG%. He has the makings of a guy who would shoot much much higher with a different set of rules. I might be convinced to take him over Mutombo. His defensive prowess can be argued to be the best out of everyone I've posted. Really liked Outside's info post on him.

Bob Cousy and Dolph Schayes

I would Mikan both in. They have shown enough importance relative to era to be ~Top 50ish all time type. Where you place him is up to you. They deserve significant respect for their contributions at the time.

Wes Unseld

Superstar glue guy. The adjusted numbers he puts up aren't necessarily super impressive, but he does post great O Ratings, a bit like an interesting version of Tyson Chandler/Shane Battier types. He obv. had a higher rep than either, but Unseld is a mystery to me.

Posted: **Thu Sep 7, 2017 4:29 am**

dhsilv2 wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:Wow Thomas 20 spots higher than I'd have expected. And I missed voting!

Vote Reed - I'm going to stick with this one for a bit. MVP, multiple titles, big man with a jumper. While imo Frazier was the better player by a hair, Reed was the captain.

Alt is tough. I'm thinking Howard, Unseld, Cowens, and maybe Iverson. For now lets start the Dwight Howard discussion. All time great defender, well above average scorer at his peak. Took a nice group of not stars but quality players to the finals. Had a legit MVP shot the fell short due to Lebron in 2011. Had a much higher peak than a lot of the people in so far and 8x all nba is more than enough longevity. Think a better Gilmore with a lot more baggage and screws loose.

Alt D Howard

He is about 20 spots lower than I thought.

1st Vote: Dominique Wilkins - Won Scoring Title, went head to head to Bird in the playoffs and one of the greatest scorers in NBA History. Led team to top 2 seed in stacked East as well.

2nd Vote: Kevin Mchale

This was baiting. Please don't do it.

Posted: **Thu Sep 7, 2017 4:32 am**

oldschooled wrote:Vote: Wes Unseld
Alt: Kevin McHale

Wes being the only guy left with MVP and a ring edges out McHale a bit imo.

Willis Reed, Dave Cowens, Bob McAdoo, and Bob Cousy all say hello.

Posted: **Thu Sep 7, 2017 4:46 am**

JordansBulls wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:
He is about 20 spots lower than I thought.

1st Vote: Dominique Wilkins - Won Scoring Title, went head to head to Bird in the playoffs and one of the greatest scorers in NBA History. Led team to top 2 seed in stacked East as well.

2nd Vote: Kevin Mchale

lol,

post your real vote now. That was a good one though

Which one is incorrect here? Can't tell.

As if one is OK

But really we have 4-5 MVP's left. A lot of quality all time best players on title times and you go with those two?

Of course you quoted me

So if you legit go there just WOW! Sadly role player and number two's are coming in strong and the number 1 guys are getting ignored. Or in your case number 3's.

While Wilkens is not in my top I dunno, he isn't on the radar for 30 or more spots, mchale is. He's just a number 2-3 kinda guy who seems out of line with so many superstars left, but and based on what this board as taught me, he was nothing more than a role player. Really that's what hte board thinks.

Posted: **Thu Sep 7, 2017 5:53 am**

dhsilv2 wrote:
penbeast0 wrote:It's hard to see Nique over Alex English for anything other than showmanship. Possibly regular season as their scoring is similar . . . Nique has a slight edge in volume, English in efficiency although English did it as part of an ensemble cast (a fast paced one though) while Nique tended to be an iso scorer. However English also has clear advantages in versatility, playmaking, and defense while Nique was the better rebounder . . . Nique did develop a 3 point shot toward the end of his career while English never did.

But, then it comes to the playoffs and the efficiency difference widens in English's favor while the volume scoring advantage for Wilkins pretty much disappears giving English a clear offensive edge in addition to his superior defense. English's teams had more playoff success as well for what that is worth though neither was on one of the superteams of the era.

How do you address the east west gap for them? The general view being the east was vastly better than the west.

I think that may have been a factor in the playoff success of the team, that's one of several reasons I added "for what that is worth" to that part of the comments. I don't think it's significant in terms of English being equal offensively in the TS and superior in the PS or being a better defender and passer (or for that matter a lesser rebounder). Nique was the epitome of spectacular, English was the opposite, but in terms of accomplishments and talents, I think English was just a better actual player both statistically and in terms of intangibles. And I do think Nique was a classy individual and a pleasure to watch.

To add another player to the mix; Gervin was a step up from either in terms of his alpha scoring ability. He didn't do as much outside of scoring as English, or even as Nique, but considering the degree to which all three's case for greatness depends on their scoring, I have him rated first of the three. My main worry with Gervin is that his era (late seventies into 80s) is a bit weaker than that of the other two (80s into early 90s). I do give Nique credit in developing a late career 3 point game which the others did not.

Posted: **Thu Sep 7, 2017 10:16 am**

trex_8063 wrote:
oldschooled wrote:Vote: Wes Unseld
Alt: Kevin McHale

Wes being the only guy left with MVP and a ring edges out McHale a bit imo.

Willis Reed, Dave Cowens, Bob McAdoo, and Bob Cousy all say hello.

F that haha. I was rushing my typing being at work and my boss coming at me. I think Mel Daniels also checks this.

Posted: **Thu Sep 7, 2017 10:19 am**

Fundamentals21 wrote:Looks like Frazier and Isiah snuck in right in time.

Wes Unseld

Superstar glue guy. The adjusted numbers he puts up aren't necessarily super impressive, but he does post great O Ratings, a bit like an interesting version of Tyson Chandler/Shane Battier types. He obv. had a higher rep than either, but Unseld is a mystery to me.

I posted a bit on him above. Look beyond the traditional stats - his VORP/BPM numbers are very impressive and he leads his team in those metrics for basically all of his career (I caveated when he didn't), including their championship/Finals appearances.

His impact comes from strong rebounding, strong passing, efficient scoring & generally mistake free ball.

Posted: **Thu Sep 7, 2017 12:45 pm**

I will vote later since the new voting system is still getting sorted out but I will talk about Unseld since he appears to be the frontrunner in this round.

1. Unseld's 1969 MVP is worth about as much as Iverson's 2001 MVP for me. Both were around the 5th best player in the league but they weren't better than Russell/West/Reed/Oscar or Shaq/Kobe/Duncan/Garnett. Howard (2011) and Mourning (1999) came much closer to being the best player in the league than Unseld IMO.

2. Unseld is not close to being a DPOY level defender. He is undersized at only 6'6 and doesn't have the Ben Wallace level athleticism to make up for the lack of height. As a rim protector, he peaked at less than 1 block a game and he doesn't have the lateral quickness to guard smaller players out on the perimeter. DBPM numbers are elite but Unseld's strength in the low post as a man defender is his only strength on defense and even in that area, he doesn't have the length to contest shots effectively.

3. The Bullets generally had good team success thanks to their defense but Unseld was not the defensive anchor. The team had two of the best defensive PFs of the era in Gus Johnson and Elvin Hayes to cover for Unseld's lack of shotblocking. Despite his poor intangibles and inefficient chucking, I have Hayes ranked above Unseld in most of their seasons together and adding in the difference in longevity, I am not seeing the case for Unseld ahead of Hayes.

Unseld's offense is pretty good but his defense is not strong enough compared to the perennial DPOY centers such as Howard, Mourning, Mutombo, Wallace and I think defense is far more important for big men.

RealGM

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