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Pau Gasol......

Some may use his relatively smaller sum of awards and honors against him. But here again is where it's important to look at circumstance, imo.

For instance, where All-Star selections are concerned, it's important to note not only positional competition in his era, but also the conference he played in.
Pau until very recently was a PF/C in the Western Conference. They are only going to take perhaps 5 (occasionally only 4) PF/C's for the All-Star team. Pau's prime overlaps almost exactly with that of Tim Duncan, Dirk Nowitzki, and Kevin Garnett. Timmy and Dirk were exclusively in the WC, Garnett was to thru '07........so that's three of the All-Star spots full for sure every year thru '07. From '02-'04, you damn well know prime Shaq is getting one too. In some years, that might be just about all the spots they'll hand out to big men. At best there's only one more spot available.

Pau's is competing for that last one (occasionally two available spots AFTER '04) spot, and his competition for that spot would include: prime Elton Brand (from '02-'07), prime Amar'e Stoudemire ('05, '07-'10), Yao Ming ('03-'09), Rasheed Wallace ('02-'04), Zach Randolph ('02-'07, then again '10 and after), healthy prime Carlos Boozer and/or LaMarcus Aldridge every year from '07 on, Shawn Marion in '06........

Frankly, getting an All-Star selection at all in the WC in the 2000's as a big man is a hell of an accomplishment. That Pau managed even ONE prior to '09 is a credit to his record, imo.

All-NBA honors are further stymied by the presence of superstar SF's (All-NBA teams just want two forwards; neither has to be a PF). So the presence of guys like Lebron and Durant, as well as all the Bosh's, Pierce's, Melo's, etc of the world make those difficult as well.
That's what he's been up against most of his career. In light of that, his 6 All-Star selections and 4 All-NBA honors shine all the brighter (and frankly I think it was purely a mistake that he got passed over for Pierce and Melo, respectively, in '09 and '10, so I have a hard time holding those against him).

Pau's got a career spanning SIXTEEN seasons (and counting), and still has a career PER for 21.5, career WS/48 of .169, and a +3.5 BPM in a career avg of 34.7 mpg. Was averaging 18.2 ppg, 9.5 rpg, 3.3 apg, and 1.7 bpg after FIFTEEN seasons.

He's one of the most offensively talented big men we've seen in the last 20 years: a guy who can score from the block, stretch the floor and hit from the midrange/outside, makes his FT's, elite passing big, etc.
He's proven a solid rebounding anchor, and for his defensive short-comings has still managed 1.7 bpg.

He was the clear 2nd-best player on two title teams, more like a 1b on another contender, and once led a team to 49 wins (+3.74 SRS) as the clear (and by a good margin) best player, and has been above average all sixteen of his seasons.

I know it's important to some others, for this stage of the list, that a player was at some point a legit MVP candidate or similar. It's just not something that's important to me.

Robert Parish......

That was my ambiguous yet dramatic marquee for a post about a player I'm higher on than most, and want to drum up a little support for. So here goes.....

Let's start with some broad strokes indicating just how productive he was (and for how long):
*Parish is 32nd all-time (in NBA/ABA combined) in career rs pts scored, 9th in rebounds, 11th in blocks. He's 26th all-time in rs WS.
**Playoffs is nearly identical: he's 32nd all-time in career playoff pts, 9th in rebounds, 6th in blocks, and 35th all-time in playoff WS.

If you look at his career in terms of PER, WS/48, BPM, remind yourself that you're looking at numbers that span an ayfkm 21 seasons. If we look at some of the other candidates gaining traction, such as Unseld, Cousy, and Iverson, note their careers were all 13 [or a little over] seasons.
Parish, by the end of his 13th season, had a PER of 20.0, .163 WS/48, +2.4 BPM in 31.0 mpg (which doesn't compare too unfavorably vs them, except maybe a little bit vs Iverson). Parish would have two more All-Star seasons AFTER that, as well as a handful of years of usefulness besides.

And he was there for his team night after night, on average missing LESS THAN 4 game games per year for two solid decades.

Parish was a two-way player. Offensively, he was one of the best transition running centers in the game (watch some early 80's Celtics games if you doubt this statement), could clean up easy hoops inside, but also had a deadly accurate spot-up from <14 ft or turn-around jumper from <12 ft (and made FT's at 72% for his career). His turn-around was not a fade-away, fwiw, but rather would turn squared up and fire this unique high-arcing shot that was somewhat difficult to block.

At the end of his 15th season he still had a career average of 16.5 ppg @ 57.7% TS while having been a consistent rebounding anchor (career 10.1 rpg at that point), as well as a reasonable rim protector (career 1.7 bpg at that point). He had anchored a top-5 defense in '79 while averaging 2.9 bpg (3.2 blk/36 min) and still maintaining the league's best DREB%......he led the league in individual DRtg that year, fwiw.

He was arguably/likely the 2nd-best player for a title team ('81 Celtics), probably about a 2b for another title team ('84 Celtics), and the fairly clear 3rd-best player for another title team; was either 2nd or 3rd best for multiple other contenders, too.

"But he was never the top dog for a good team" or "He was only any good on offense due to Bird's passing".....
These are critical statements I've heard in the past. Fortunately, we need look no further than the '89 Celtics to dispel them as false. In '89 Bird was injured and missed basically the entire year. It was a 35-yr-old Robert Parish who filled much of the void. I bold the age to emphasize this isn't even Parish in his physical prime.
Parish nonetheless led the team in ORebs, DRebs and TRebs (by handy margins on all accounts): he was actually 3rd in the whole league in rpg that year (behind only Hakeem and Barkley, and he actually had a higher reb/36 min than Barkley), and also led the entire league in TREB%. He also led the team in bpg, and averaged 18.6 ppg (2nd on the team, and +4.3 from '88), and still on a very elite 60.7% TS [again: without Bird].

He had the team's best PER at 21.6 (2nd was McHale's 20.3), the team's best WS/48 at .177 (2nd was McHale's .168, not counting Ed Pinckney's .176 which came on <700 total minutes), and the team's best BPM at +4.2 (2nd was McHale's +2.1, not counting Pinckney's +3.0). And there's not enough difference between McHale and Parish in mpg to account for Parish's edge in everything (36.9 mpg for McHale, 35.5 mpg for Parish, who missed two fewer games as well).

In short, he was the top dog on this team that managed a 42-40 record in a tough Eastern Conference (+1.26 SRS); and this was after turning 35 years old before the season even started.

He was a 9-time All-Star, 1-time All-NBA 2nd Team, 1-time All-NBA 3rd Team, and has four total NBA titles to his credit--->playing during one of the toughest eras in the history of the league, too.
He figured into the MVP vote FIVE seasons, twice in the top 10, once as high as 4th.

To me, this is a fairly stellar career easily deserving of top 50 recognition.

1st vote: Pau Gasol
2nd vote: Robert Parish

Posted: **Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:12 pm**

1st choice: Wes Unseld
Honorable Mention: Russell Westbrook

In general it seems like we're drifting towards longevity giants right now.

If you're not giving Unseld a look, you're missing a gem. You're getting a guy who was a high performer by advanced metrics (VORP, BPM), was selected to be an MVP, was a strong playoff performer & enjoyed strong team success.

Advanced Metrics

Unseld hit 5+ scores for both BPM 3 times & VORP twice - that we know of - one of which didn't come in a double digit WS year. If we make the reasonably safe assumption that he hit those scores in ALL of his double digit WS year, that gives him 6 years of a BPM Score of 5+ and 5 years of a VORP Score of 5+ and It's highly likely that if we had RAPM, the metric would've loved him as well.

What's so impressive about that? Last round our run-off candidates only had 5 years of each combined if we assume Reed got there in all of his double digit win share seasons.

MVP Season

In the '68-'69 season, Unseld was selected MVP over guys who are already in like Wilt, Russell, West, Baylor, Frazier & Hondo. He is clearly well respected by his peers. People have said that Unseld's MVP was a little weak - and I get that - but remember you're voting for slot #48 at this point! It's noteworthy that Unseld's arrival coincided with a 21 win improvement without a change in the team's core, or a change in the coach. Washington went from 36 to 57 wins and finished with the best record in the league - that's why he won MVP - he had a major impact on winning. A team with Unseld & Monroe as it's two best players beat out Wilt/West, Russell/Hondo, Frazier/Reed, which is pretty impressive.

Strong playoff performer

In the playoffs, he maintains his strong performance - averaging 10/15/4/with 1.8 TOs (on fairly limited data) which is right on par with his career averages.

The most infamous defeat one of his teams suffer isn't really on him (the '75 Finals). He does his thing - 12-17-4 on 54% TS. That's who he was. Hayes crippled the team offensively - yes, he scored 20 PPG but he shot a miserable TS% of just 46% and that kilkls your offensive efficiency.

Strong Team Success

Unseld was the team playoff leader in WS and then VORP/BPM for 4 Finals Teams* as he was vital to his teams' playoff success as mentioned by his strong playoff numbers above. Unseld only misses the playoffs once in a strong 13 year career that sees him pace his team in every year but 2# in VORP & BPM - and before that in WS.

* - Hayes outpaced Unseld in Playoff VORP; Unseld outpaced Hayes in Playoff BPM as well as regular season VORP and BPM during their title year of '78.
# - ('74 - injuries & '81 - injuries + final year)

Unseld would make a fantastic addition to our List. You're getting an MVP who is recognized as a high impact performer by advanced metrics, who had decent longevity, was a strong playoff performer and was the highest impact player for a consistent winner.

You just don't see guys who achieved that much this late; there's guys left who achieved higher peaks, but had much worse longevity - Unseld brings very high impact years over a sustained run as a winner; the really high peak players remaining (Westbrook, Tmac, McAdoo, Walton) can't say that. Of our remaining MVP's who didn't play in a segregated era, Unseld has the most quality years.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I loved watching Allen Iverson play. His style, his determination & his explosiveness were all captivating. The man had a relentless motor. He's on my all-time "favorite guys to watch" team - but he's not in my Top 50.

Watching him play, you can kind of tell, deep down in a place you don't totally want to admit that your ceiling is capped with him because of efficiency issues.

But what if, you could capture the competitive fire, never say die attitude, motor at max 100% of the time, reckless abandonment & "I can't wait to see this guy play" factor in a sabermetric friendly version? I present to you Russell Westbrook (full disclosure: my favorite player to watch in the league).

The advanced metrics actually love him

One of the biggest knocks on Westbrook is going to be around efficiency - his detractors are going to say that he wasn't an efficient player and that they have stylistic concerns about him. Some (but not all) of these metrics I'm going to present will somewhat over-state his impact. The point isn't to say he had the best season ever (like VORP will) - rather this is to illustrate that all the sabermetrics actually recognize his impact - and should dispel some efficiency concerns.

RAPM - he finished 4th in ESPN's RPM Wins each of the last 2 years, 7th in '15, and 13th in RPM in '14 and a strong "pre-prime" of being 21st in the chained RAPM from '08-'11.
VORP - Last year Russell Westbrook posted the highest single season VORP Score EVER.
BPM - Westbrook has finished 1st in this metric twice ('15 & '17) and holds 2 of the Top 10 scores EVER.
WS - FWIW, he already has more career Win Shares than Willis Reed - who has been in the last several run-offs. He's hit 13 WS + twice - of our remaining candidates from last round, Reed got there twice, Allen once & Iverson never.
PER - last time he broke the 30 barrier. That's relevant because here is your list of guys who also have:

Steph Curry
Anthony Davis
Lebron James
Dwayne Wade
Tracy McGrady
Shaq
David Robinson
MJ
Chamberlain

That's an impressive group. Everyone else is in but Tmac & AD.

An ability to perform well against other elite guards when it matters

In his lone encounter against Paul in the playoffs
Westbrook - 28/9/6 - 61% TS
Paul - 23/12/4 - 61% TS

vs. Steph in the playoffs:

Westbrook - 27/11/7 - 51.2% TS
Steph - 28/6/6 - 61.3% TS

vs. Wade in the '12 Finals:

Westbrook - 27/7/6 - 51% TS
Wade - 23/6/5 - 51% TS

vs. Harden in LY Playoffs:

Westbrook - 34/10/10 * not technically a triple double - rounding here - 51% TS
Harden - 32/7/6 - 57% TS - so much flopping - worse FG & 3PT%'s than Westbrook :noway:

Westbrook doesn't necessarily win all these matchups (2 are wins; 1's a draw & 1's a loss; but in EVERY matchup he competes and acquits himself well) - say what you will about Westbrook but you'll never see anything like this shameful performance:

Watch on YouTube

Elephant in the room: Stylistics & KD

I'll tackle the KD thing - why did he leave? I'll put it in KD's own words:

"he didn't like the organization or playing for Billy Donovan. His roster wasn't that good, it was just him and russ."

"imagine taking russ off that team, see how bad they were. Kd can't win a championship with those cats."

This wasn't a Westbrook issue - this is an org & Billy Donovan issue.

As for stylistics - I know Westbrook took a lot of flack for the style he played last year. But look at the mess Westbrook still got 10 apg with:

Watch on YouTube

Then you have Oladipo - who is basically a homeless man's Westbrook - who somehow managed to shoot a worse TS% than Westbrook last year - as did Sabonis. You're only real offensive weapon - Enes Kanter - can't stay on the floor in the playoffs because of things like this:

Watch on YouTube

I know Adams was there - but I feel like Adams usage rate was probably optimized last year. I want him scoring in the 12-15 PPG range on a high TS%. And that's sort of the point - in that situation, Westbrook probably optimized OKC's chances of winning.

This is a guy who is a strong playoff performer and is a very high efficiency guy who has had an incredibly high peak and already turned in 6 very high quality seasons & he hasn't had a BAD season yet. It's time for him to get some support.

Posted: **Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:26 pm**

I think it's definitely time that Harden and Westbrook start getting strong consideration.

Harden- 8 seasons, career averages of 22.1/5.5/5.7 22.9 PER 60.6 ts%, would be even higher if not for being a 3rd option on Okc for 3 years. If we're being generous, already has a 5 year prime where he has thrown up this 27.4/5.9/7.6 25.2 PER 60.7 ts%

5 time all star, 3 time all nba first team, one time all nba 3rd team, 6th man of the year etc, led a team to the WCF as an elite first option. I don't think Harden's supporting casts have been great in Houston, and it's been impressive what he's accomplished with his teams.

Westbrook- 9 seasons, 22.7/6.2/7.9 23.8 PER 53.3 ts% 5.2 OBPM 6.5 BPM

Put up arguably the most impressive box score season in history last season, 30+ point tripple double with a 30.6 PER and destroyed the record for BPM at 15.6. Box score wise, that competes with Lebron and Mj's best seasons if not surpasses it.

I think he has been a pretty good playoff performer despite the mediocre ts%. Outplayed Durant in his mvp season in the playoffs, then again in 2016. Helps take OKC up 3-1 over the Warriors and averages 26/6.9/11a 26.9 PER, and 8 OBPM over that playoff run.

Already an MVP, 6 time all star, 2 time scoring champ 2 time all nba first team and 4 time all nba second team.

These 2 guys may be short on longevity, but when you get this far down the list i don't think it's such a big deal, especially when there is nowhere near 50 guys that have had 4-5 year primes as impressive as the 2. While Steph Curry and Durant have had clearly better carrers than Westbrook and Harden i can't see how it's justifiable that it's 20+ spots ahead. It just doesn't seem consistent to me, Curry has a little better of a prime than them, but 0 longevity edge. Durant has a bit more longevity, but how much? I think Westbrook has been better than KD pretty much from the 2014 playoffs and onward while everything before is KD.

I haven't voted in a while but i'm doing it now

1st vote- Westbrook
2nd vote- Harden

Posted: **Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:21 pm**

Arizin is the next 50s guy for me, then Cousy, by the stats is might be Neil Johnston but they were teammates and when Arizin went into the military the team fell apart. Combine that with Johnston's great offense/lacksadaisical defense rep and you get an Amare Stoudamire type player, only in a weaker era.

60s guys, I am looking at Sam Jones, Hal Greer, Dave Debusschere, maybe Chet Walker. Thurmond is hurt by his offense and his team winning a title just after trading him for Cliff Ray. 70s there are a bunch of guys who are impressive Daniels, Cowens, Unseld, Hayes, McAdoo just among big men. Of these, I'd rather have Dave Cowens though the stats don't always back me up but having watched them a lot, he was Alonzo Mourning's attitude with stretch the floor midrange shooting.

80s, Sidney Moncrief had a short career but every time I saw him he was brutally effective, particularly defensively. Bobby Jones is another great two way player with limited time (not length of career for him but minutes per game). On the other end, Adrian Dantley is probably the next great scorer over Nique (and King/Aguirre/Marques/etc.). To paraphrase LA Bird, the only real argument for Nique over English is style over substance; they scored roughly equivalent amounts but English was more efficient, a clearly superior defender, and he scored them in the context of the Nuggets offense without having to have isos run for him. No one left is as offensively impressive to me as English and Dantley except for the shorter modern careers like Westbrook and Harden.

90s have been picked through pretty well except for the oddity that is Dennis Rodman; GOAT rebounder in regular season, but big dropoffs in the postseason or I'd probably be looking at him here. 00s we have Mutombo's defense (okay, 90s and 00s), Ray Allen's scoring, and Manu Ginobili, the Bobby Jones of the modern era. Current stars like Westbrook, Harden, etc. could get into the conversation as well.

Vote: Alex English
Alternate: Adrian Dantley

Posted: **Sun Oct 1, 2017 4:15 am**

T-Mac was the ideal point-forward and if for some reason we were cloning shooting guards I'd argue T-Mac would be the best choice. McGrady had it all 6'9" elite athleticism and wingspan. He had absolutely no holes in his game. I'll go through every portion of his game but not overly extensive. First his passing ability was great, truly elite. He knew how to find his teammates at the best time in the best spot and had the type of vision you can only be born with. He could pass out of any double-team and he basically never turned the ball over. His turnover pct was often below 10% which is really incredible. Another reason for his turnover averse play was his ball-handling. Tracy McGrady is the greatest SG ball handler of all time and at 6'9" that's really saying something. He could dribble the ball anywhere he wanted on the court and while sometimes his fancy displays of ball-handling killed ball movement they mostly enabled him to attack and score from wherever he wanted. These two traits made him the best point-forward of his time (pre LBJ of course). He could do literally whatever he wanted as far as scoring the basketball. He could get to the basket and finish with ease, he had a solid post up game with a great fadeaway, he could pull up for 3 off-the dribble, he could spot up and hit shots, he could run off screens, he could any type of step-back, turnaround, hop step mid range jumpers you could think of, he could play in the pick and roll to score or pass, and he could explode out of the triple-threat. He had the most variety in his coring of any player I've ever seen and possibly the most ever. He was really the perfect wing. T-Mac was really beautiful to watch. Watching T-Mac play was like watching Federer play tennis it looks as tho they were born to play the sport and they just glide around the court gracefully dismantling their opponents in a way that seems effortless. This seemingly effortlessness in McGrady's game probably partially contributed to the perception of him being a lazy player. McGrady's work ethic was pretty poor and if he had Kobe or MJ killer in him, provided he was healthy, he'd be top 3 all-time. He was never a great leader and he was a pretty quiet guy but his intangibles other than work ethic weren't a negative. I can't honestly blame him for his lack of effort if your best teammates were Juwan Howard and Mike Miller you'd probably be pretty frustrated and lazy too. Those Orlando supporting casts are so laughably bad that they dwarf LBJ and Kobe's and even Garnett's. No wonder his back couldn't take him carrying all those scrubs for 4 years :lol:

. His situation was just completely hopeless. Maybe that's why he always settled for deep contested 2s his jumper was awesome but no one can hit contested perimeter shots consistently at a high percentage. He easily could've gotten to the rim more or created more open looks but he really seemed to half-ass games at time because of how **** his teams were. He was literally the only guy on the team who could create any shots for himself or others. That's probably another reason he settled because he was tasked with doing literally everything for his team and he was probably exhausted. Had he played on even a decent team he would have the energy to attack the rim way more. Same goes for defense when he was playing at 100% effort he looked like an All-NBA defender but he was an average defender his whole career because he didn't care to play defense most of the time and he also didn't have energy to play D. McGrady was the only person on his team that defenses had to give any **** about and he still destroyed defenses. At his peak in 03 he had 30 ast % to 8.4 yes 8.4 tov % and had the greatest season of all-time tied with Michael Jordan according to OBPM at 9.8. The Magic still only went 42-40 and he played amazing in the playoffs and they still lost in 7 to the Pistons. It's honestly depressing to think about. If only Tim Duncan signed with the Magic and Grant Hill could stay healthy they would've been the greatest team of all-time and maybe McGrady's back wouldn't have been destroyed by carrying the 600 pound Shawn Kemp and all those other scrubs on his back. His 1 year peak is top 10 and his 7 year prime is awesome but it could've been so much more. He was the third best player in the league in the early 00s behind Shaq and TD and was the best offensive player in a time dominated by defense. This is getting ridiculously long so I'm done but I could go on for even longer if I wanted lol. I'm willing to answer any questions/debate with people about this but I think it's time for McGrady.
1st Vote: T-Mac
2nd Vote: Nique
P.S. I haven't been able to participate lately but man am I disappointed to see Cousy in this early.

Posted: **Sun Oct 1, 2017 5:00 am**

1. Dikembe Mutombo
One of the greatest defensive players ever and should have won more than 4 DPOYs. Deke is the only player beside Russell who is on both of my defensive Mt Rushmore for peak and overall career. He dominated DRob/Hakeem in late 90s DRAPM data which suggests his relative lacking defensive versatility and agility out in the perimeter did not stop from him being a major defensive force. I rate Mutombo as a slight negative offensively due to him not being a good passer but he at least scores at a solid efficiency on low volume and can make FTs. Remained a top tier defensive player into his 40s and the extra longevity puts him ahead of other centers (namely Mourning, Reed, Walton) who peaked higher but had their careers significantly cut short by injuries.

Alternate: Allen Iverson

Posted: **Sun Oct 1, 2017 5:33 pm**

Thru post #7 (only six votes so far; I'll try to bring in some more discussion; having internet troubles which are somewhat hindering my participation):

Pau Gasol - 1 (trex_8063)
Dikembe Mutombo - 1 (LABird)
Wes Unseld - 1 (pandrade83)
Russell Westbrook - 1 (mischievous)
Alex English - 1 (penbeast0)
Tracy McGrady - 1 (twolves97)

This thread will be forced into runoff one way or another in ~21-22 hours. Please get you comments and picks in before then.

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Posted: **Sun Oct 1, 2017 6:31 pm**

Vote: Pau Gasol
Alt: Wes Unseld

Same vote as before. I'm just really impressed with Gasol's ability to seamlessly take on different primacies. It's not something many players can do well.

Doctor MJ wrote:
So, I've been essentially letting others do the heavy lifting lately. Reason is that I just feel so ambivalent once we get this deep in the project. Can see so many good arguments and so many counters. It's easier if I have a short list to focus on.

Of the players with a vote so far, I'll go with these two.

I have enormous respect for Pau. This isn't just the #2 on a mini-dynasty, this is also arguably the FIFA player of the decade for his lead role on Spain. His ability to go between alpha and beta so smoothly, and then smoothly take on smaller roles, it's not common.

After that I'll take Unseld who I would just love to have on my team. I do think he gets overrated by that MVP, but I also feel like he gets underrated by everyone who realizes that.

Of those without a vote so far, Zo is the one who has been on my mind most. To me this is a guy who has a case for being a Top 3 player for a series of years, and who could slide over to a lesser role while giving the locker room an intensity pick up.Longevity is an issue of course, but I still think Zo accomplished more than Howard.

Posted: **Sun Oct 1, 2017 6:56 pm**

twolves97 wrote:T-Mac was the ideal point-forward and if for some reason we were cloning shooting guards I'd argue T-Mac would be the best choice. McGrady had it all 6'9" elite athleticism and wingspan. He had absolutely no holes in his game. I'll go through every portion of his game but not overly extensive. First his passing ability was great, truly elite. He knew how to find his teammates at the best time in the best spot and had the type of vision you can only be born with. He could pass out of any double-team and he basically never turned the ball over. His turnover pct was often below 10% which is really incredible. Another reason for his turnover averse play was his ball-handling. Tracy McGrady is the greatest SG ball handler of all time and at 6'9" that's really saying something. He could dribble the ball anywhere he wanted on the court and while sometimes his fancy displays of ball-handling killed ball movement they mostly enabled him to attack and score from wherever he wanted. These two traits made him the best point-forward of his time (pre LBJ of course). He could do literally whatever he wanted as far as scoring the basketball. He could get to the basket and finish with ease, he had a solid post up game with a great fadeaway, he could pull up for 3 off-the dribble, he could spot up and hit shots, he could run off screens, he could any type of step-back, turnaround, hop step mid range jumpers you could think of, he could play in the pick and roll to score or pass, and he could explode out of the triple-threat. He had the most variety in his coring of any player I've ever seen and possibly the most ever. He was really the perfect wing. T-Mac was really beautiful to watch. Watching T-Mac play was like watching Federer play tennis it looks as tho they were born to play the sport and they just glide around the court gracefully dismantling their opponents in a way that seems effortless. This seemingly effortlessness in McGrady's game probably partially contributed to the perception of him being a lazy player. McGrady's work ethic was pretty poor and if he had Kobe or MJ killer in him, provided he was healthy, he'd be top 3 all-time. He was never a great leader and he was a pretty quiet guy but his intangibles other than work ethic weren't a negative. I can't honestly blame him for his lack of effort if your best teammates were Juwan Howard and Mike Miller you'd probably be pretty frustrated and lazy too. Those Orlando supporting casts are so laughably bad that they dwarf LBJ and Kobe's and even Garnett's. No wonder his back couldn't take him carrying all those scrubs for 4 years . His situation was just completely hopeless. Maybe that's why he always settled for deep contested 2s his jumper was awesome but no one can hit contested perimeter shots consistently at a high percentage. He easily could've gotten to the rim more or created more open looks but he really seemed to half-ass games at time because of how **** his teams were. He was literally the only guy on the team who could create any shots for himself or others. That's probably another reason he settled because he was tasked with doing literally everything for his team and he was probably exhausted. Had he played on even a decent team he would have the energy to attack the rim way more. Same goes for defense when he was playing at 100% effort he looked like an All-NBA defender but he was an average defender his whole career because he didn't care to play defense most of the time and he also didn't have energy to play D. McGrady was the only person on his team that defenses had to give any **** about and he still destroyed defenses. At his peak in 03 he had 30 ast % to 8.4 yes 8.4 tov % and had the greatest season of all-time tied with Michael Jordan according to OBPM at 9.8. The Magic still only went 42-40 and he played amazing in the playoffs and they still lost in 7 to the Pistons. It's honestly depressing to think about. If only Tim Duncan signed with the Magic and Grant Hill could stay healthy they would've been the greatest team of all-time and maybe McGrady's back wouldn't have been destroyed by carrying the 600 pound Shawn Kemp and all those other scrubs on his back. His 1 year peak is top 10 and his 7 year prime is awesome but it could've been so much more. He was the third best player in the league in the early 00s behind Shaq and TD and was the best offensive player in a time dominated by defense. This is getting ridiculously long so I'm done but I could go on for even longer if I wanted lol. I'm willing to answer any questions/debate with people about this but I think it's time for McGrady.
1st Vote: T-Mac
2nd Vote: Nique
P.S. I haven't been able to participate lately but man am I disappointed to see Cousy in this early.

You say TMac half-assed it because he had weak teammates but I found the opposite to be true. He had all the tools in the world but just didn't seem to have the instincts (or the desire) for team play. When he played with Yao and the team was playing well, he would slack off and disappear for stretches. When Yao (as he often did) got injured, TMac would turn into superman like it was 2003. It was those stretches and 2003 . . . when his teammates were not impressive, that make TMac's rep. He was a great individual player, but despite his passing ability, not a great team player. It didn't help that more than one of his coaches have come out saying he was a poor practice player and didn't listen either.

For me, he's like Iverson and Dominique Wilkins . . . and to a degree Adrian Dantley though Dantley rescued his rep for me to some degree with the amount of praise Chuck Daly poured on him (even after he had moved on) for his professionalism, work ethic, and defense. The stats for Dantley are more impressive than those for TMac or Iverson at least if you think efficiency is important in a volume scorer wich I do; I don't see either of them surpassing him in terms of intangibles to make up for it. English also had the point forward skills, the defensive skills, and the volume scoring of McGrady and the universal praise of every coach and player he ever played with for his dedication and team play. So, no, I'm not ready for either TMac or Iverson yet when there are better scoring wings to build your team around.

Posted: **Sun Oct 1, 2017 7:20 pm**

It's been a few threads, so he's back.

Vote: Nate Thurmond
Alternate: Dominique Wilkins

Nate the Great. He wasn't called that for nothing.

Thurmond was a great, great defender and rebounder. Given the era he played in, it's hard to quantify his defense. First off, I'll go to these guys.

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar wrote:He [Thurmond] plays me better than anybody ever has, He's tall, has real long arms, and most of all he's agile and strong. When I score on Nate, I know I've done something.

Wilt Chamberlain wrote:Nate Thurmond was an incredible defensive basketball player. He played me as well as Bill Russell.

Those are the two best scoring bigs in NBA history.

Kareem and Thurmond faced each other in the playoffs three straight seasons.

In 1970-71, Kareem averaged 31.7 PPG. Against Thurmond in the playoffs, he averaged 27.8 PPG.

In 1971-72, Kareem averaged a career-high 34.8 PPG on 57.4 FG% in the RS. Against Thurmond in the playoffs, he averaged 24.2 PPG on 40 FG%.

In 1972-73, Kareem averaged 30.2 PPG on 55.4 FG% in the RS. Against Thurmond in the playoffs, he averaged 22.8 PPG on 42.8 FG%..

Those stats are as complete as I could get. Unfortunately, stat-keeping for the era works against Thurmond. If we had the defensive stats available today and his stats on blocks in particular, he'd have greater appreciation among those voting here.

As for his offense, he's dismissed here because of his efficiency, which looks bad compared to today's players. But it was only a few points below league average, and he scored well -- 15.0 for his career, and five straight seasons scoring at least 20 PPG. He was considered a good but not great scorer in his day.

He was an exceptional shotblocker, one of the best the game has ever seen, but blocks weren't recorded until 1973-74, his 11th season in the league. Even though the game had taken a toll on his knees by that point, he was still top 10 in blocks the next two seasons.

Walt Hazzard wrote:I've seen guys get offensive rebounds and then go back 15 feet to make sure they can get a shot off. They know Nate is there.

Once blocks and steals became official stats, another stat became possible -- the quadruple-double. Thurmond was the first to record one, with 22 points, 14 rebounds, 13 assists, and 12 blocks. There have been only three other quadruple-doubles since.

As a rebounder, Thurmond was one of the best:

-- NBA record for rebounds in a quarter - 18
-- One of only four players with 40 rebounds in a game (Russell, Chamberlain, Lucas)
-- One of only five players to average 20 rebounds for a season (Russell, Chamberlain, Pettit, Lucas); Thurmond did it twice
-- One of only five players to average 15 rebounds for a career (Russell, Chamberlain, Pettit, Lucas)
-- 10th all time in career rebounds

Besides being retired by the Warriors, Thurmond's number 42 jersey is also retired by Cleveland even though he played only parts of two seasons there at the end of his career. From the statement released by the Cavs when Nate died:

Nate’s jersey hangs in the rafters at The Q because of the unselfish way the Akron native and Hall of Famer approached the game we all love, the teammate that he was, his profound impact on one of the most special seasons in Cavaliers history, and the way that all translated on and off the court to reflect the 'All for One. One for All.' code. Just as Nate always held the Miracle team, the Coliseum crowds and his local roots dear to him, the Cavaliers franchise will always love and respect him as a true Cavalier legend.

Watch on YouTube

Posted: **Sun Oct 1, 2017 7:26 pm**

LA Bird wrote:1. Dikembe Mutombo
One of the greatest defensive players ever and should have won more than 4 DPOYs. Deke is the only player beside Russell who is on both of my defensive Mt Rushmore for peak and overall career. He dominated DRob/Hakeem in late 90s DRAPM data which suggests his relative lacking defensive versatility and agility out in the perimeter did not stop from him being a major defensive force. I rate Mutombo as a slight negative offensively due to him not being a good passer but he at least scores at a solid efficiency on low volume and can make FTs. Remained a top tier defensive player into his 40s and the extra longevity puts him ahead of other centers (namely Mourning, Reed, Walton) who peaked higher but had their careers significantly cut short by injuries.

Alternate: Allen Iverson

Should be noted Mutombo also turned the ball over an awful lot given his overall offensive ability. The more I look back on him the more than seems like an issue I'd never thought of myself.

I will say despite my aversion to him here, for longevity guys, his play in houston was underrated by many. He was still an impact defender, a big one, late into his career. He really earned a lot of respect from me by being that good at such an old age, but not enough to rank him this high as he was never a top 10 guy imo.

Posted: **Sun Oct 1, 2017 7:32 pm**

LA Bird wrote:1. Dikembe Mutombo
One of the greatest defensive players ever and should have won more than 4 DPOYs. Deke is the only player beside Russell who is on both of my defensive Mt Rushmore for peak and overall career. He dominated DRob/Hakeem in late 90s DRAPM data which suggests his relative lacking defensive versatility and agility out in the perimeter did not stop from him being a major defensive force. I rate Mutombo as a slight negative offensively due to him not being a good passer but he at least scores at a solid efficiency on low volume and can make FTs. Remained a top tier defensive player into his 40s and the extra longevity puts him ahead of other centers (namely Mourning, Reed, Walton) who peaked higher but had their careers significantly cut short by injuries.

If you value defensive players so highly, look at Thurmond. He was a defensive force second to only Russell.

Posted: **Sun Oct 1, 2017 7:35 pm**

It seems I look at this a bit differently than a lot of people here. I think in terms of "were you an MVP (best player), were you dominate, did you massively contribute to titles (I understand this can be seen as unfair but such is life), and finally the icing on the cake (the good but not great icing, not that wax stuff that is better left off) is if you had a long career. I say this to justify what are 3 very different players that I'm pushing for here. of course just are getting a vote but I want to put Manu who is imo the biggest title contributor left on the board and has some pretty pretty nice icing in terms of longevity left. Reed's career being short is true, but if 900 game is enough to push a guy past Parish at 1600 games, how in the hell is 600 not enough vs guys with 900? There seems to be a "modern" scaling for longer careers where anyone not getting 900 games in played too few years, but if that 200-300 games was so important why are guys like Parish (1 person has an alt vote) or even a Kevin Willis not getting play here?

At this point Reed's 5 all nba's and 7 allstar appearances are no longer looking like this crazy short career. It's time for Reed, it's time for Unseld and it's time for Cowens to start getting much more play. It's also time to look at the volume scorers who made lottery teams into fun to watch playoff teams.

Vote Reed - Reed remains the best career of an MVP here, slightly pushing out Cowen and Iverson. A big man who was an above average defender, had a solid jump shot, and was considered a high intangibles guy on two title teams. Sure you only get 6 maybe 7 stand out seasons from him, but his career carried with it some rather iconic moments.

Alt Iverson Of the volume scorers that are getting traction, the best season/playoff run imo is strongly in favor of Iverson. Iverson was given a rather odd career, it wasn't until he was older that he had his first legit "star" level co player in Melo, but Melo as we all know was hardly the right mix for Iverson. Iverson gave his body to the game, he was wearing what looked like battle armor by the end. I tend to think Iverson was also a better play maker than he's given credit for. If influence on the game matters to you, Iverson would have been in ages ago. For all the coach issue he had, I have to pause and point out Larry Brown was known as a tough coach to play for, and yet somehow they had a pretty good run together.

HM - Manu Ginobili. 992 games played, longevity is there without much debate despite joining the league well over the normal rookie age and being held back by pop. The burn here is that he's averaged 25.8 minutes a game for his career, by far the lowest here. His 349 starts however is fairly comparable to McHale who we already put in and Manu has him beat in titles and tied in all nba selections. And with this we begin the Manu playoff story.

Manu is one of the greatest playoff performers in NBA history.

Games played 213 (9th)
Minutes played 5968 (27th)
Field Goal 941 (35th)
Free Throws 809 (17th)
TRB 859 (66th)
AST 811 (24th)
STL 285 (11th)
PTS 3009 (25th)
PER 19.4 (62nd)
WS 20.6 (20th)
WS/48 .1657 (44th)
BPM 5.24 (25th)
VORP 10.87 (17th)

I get that the playoffs are longer and that a lot of this is a function of playing with Duncan and being in the Spurs system, we don't need to go there, but there are very few players who weren't with other great players and who didn't have strong coaches who we rank this highly. I want to however point out how darn good those playoff stats are, and in a 213 game sample. That's nearly 3 seasons for those who miss games and still 2.6 82 game seasons. Manu averaged 28 minutes a game in the playoffs and during the title era (03-13) he was just a hair under 30 a game.

For those who are fans of RAPM, well Manu he was the top guy in 05, 3rd in 06, 3rd in 07, and 2nd in 08. But he doesn't start? Well during that 4 year span he started 189 out of 288 regular season games and played 29 minutes a game in the regular season.

His 10 year RAPM from 02-11 (he didn't play in 02) ranks 4th.

He is a 7 time top 10 BPM guy, with 4 3rd place finishes. He was top 10 in VORP 4 times (peaking at 4th). 5 top 10 WS/48 seasons peaking at 2nd. 75th all time in WS and 35th all time in VORP.

For every reason that Manu is too high here (other MVP's on the board, bench player, minutes played, etc) there is a reason he should be here. Manu has flat out been one of the most impactful players in the NBA for over decade. There is zero negative baggage on him as a locker room guy. He has had injury issue, even in the playoffs, but has more than made up for that.

If you're skeptical of the 70's MVPs left, not a fan of the 80's and 90's volume scorers, or aren't ready for defensive only big men. I present you Manu. Manu truly needs to be somewhere in the 50's. I don't expect him to get traction for a bit, but he absolutely needs to be somewhere in the 50's. For me manu is perhaps the best player, I'm pretty sure couldn't have been the number 1 guy on a team, but as a number 2 he was just so special.

Posted: **Sun Oct 1, 2017 7:36 pm**

Outside wrote:
LA Bird wrote:1. Dikembe Mutombo
One of the greatest defensive players ever and should have won more than 4 DPOYs. Deke is the only player beside Russell who is on both of my defensive Mt Rushmore for peak and overall career. He dominated DRob/Hakeem in late 90s DRAPM data which suggests his relative lacking defensive versatility and agility out in the perimeter did not stop from him being a major defensive force. I rate Mutombo as a slight negative offensively due to him not being a good passer but he at least scores at a solid efficiency on low volume and can make FTs. Remained a top tier defensive player into his 40s and the extra longevity puts him ahead of other centers (namely Mourning, Reed, Walton) who peaked higher but had their careers significantly cut short by injuries.

If you value defensive players so highly, look at Thurmond. He was a defensive force second to only Russell.

Thurmond looks to be a worse defender and much worse offensive player when I've looked at him. Mind you Mutombo and Ben Wallace imo are the two best defenders left. Thurmond is likely 3rd but a real step down.

Do you have a reason to take Thurmond over Mutombo as a defender or Ben Wallace?

BTW I see what you posted on him, but doesn't really address why he's better than Mutombo. It also seemed to focus on his on ball defense, but even if I were moderate and say on ball was half the value of off ball (I think off ball is 3-5x more valuable), it doesn't really cover the two.

Posted: **Sun Oct 1, 2017 8:26 pm**

dhsilv2 wrote:... Reed's career being short is true, but if 900 game is enough to push a guy past Parish at 1600 games, how in the hell is 600 not enough vs guys with 900? ...

728 including playoffs.

I can see Manu (or Bobby Jones) getting traction but if you are looking at short career guys, how does Reed measure up to Sidney Moncrief or Russell Westbrook (both of whom played more games than Reed)?

Moncrief only had a 5 year prime, plus a rookie and 2nd year where he was developing and a couple of seasons limping around as a reserve but that's still 860 games at arguably a higher impact that Reed. Both were extraordinary intangible guys, Sid as a guard took a Milwaukee team that had been mediocre defensively since Kareem left and turned it into a team that imitated his college "40 minutes of hell" defense despite a rotating pool of centers (Lister, Breuer, Lanier, Mokeski, etc.) in a center dominated league. For that he earned the first two NBA DPOY awards and a rep as the greatest man defender in the history of the NBA. He also scored as much or more than Reed at a much higher level of efficiency averaging 20 ppg on almost .600ts% through his prime.

He doesn't have the rings (though Reed's contribution to the second one was more inspirational) because he was playing with a decent team in a conference that had two Warriors/Cavs type superteams in Boston (Bird, McHale, Parish, Dennis Johnson) and Philly (Erving, Moses, Bobby Jones, Toney, Cheeks). He did lead a victory over the Celtics but it was the year that Moses and Philly were on the "fo fo fo" crusade.

Westbrook has the triple double MVP season last year and 755 games including Finals stints as 1B to Durant's 1A in addition to that. I have him a little below Moncrief because of his efficiency (ts% and turnovers) but he's a level up from either as a volume scorer and adds high rebounding and assist totals. Is Reed truly a superior player?

Posted: **Sun Oct 1, 2017 9:24 pm**

Vote Manu Ginobili

Minutes and durability aside, Manu simply has a huge impact on the game when he's in. Shows up in both +/- and as a ballhandler, driver, shooter, defender and tremendous intangibles and little things guy. As mentioned great playoff record as well.

2nd: Russell Westbrook

Posted: **Sun Oct 1, 2017 9:50 pm**

dhsilv2 wrote:Thurmond looks to be a worse defender and much worse offensive player when I've looked at him. Mind you Mutombo and Ben Wallace imo are the two best defenders left. Thurmond is likely 3rd but a real step down.

Do you have a reason to take Thurmond over Mutombo as a defender or Ben Wallace?

BTW I see what you posted on him, but doesn't really address why he's better than Mutombo. It also seemed to focus on his on ball defense, but even if I were moderate and say on ball was half the value of off ball (I think off ball is 3-5x more valuable), it doesn't really cover the two.

A short post, but a lot to respond to. I'll jump around a bit, so please bear with me.

Saying off-ball defense is 3-5 times more valuable than on-ball defense is an odd statement. In Thurmond's case, it ignores context altogether. When you're going up against Kareem or Wilt, your on-ball defense is far more important. On other nights, you can play help off the ball more, have a more wide-ranging impact. When Mutombo went up against Olajuwon or Shaq, he didn't help off the ball very much.

In a larger context, how do you expect to address off-ball defense for any player from Thurmond's era? It's not quantifiable. Defensive stats in general aren't quantifiable for that era. Steals and blocks were not recorded as a stat until 1973-74, Thurmond's 11th. Head-to-head field goal percentage is really hard to come by, let alone advanced stats like percentage against in various categories or on/off numbers. DRtg is based solely on how the team did as a whole, not on how a player impacts DRtg. Here is the Warriors DRtg during Thurmond's peak:

Warriors DRtg rank/number of teams in the NBA
1964-65 - 2/9
1965-66 - 3/9
1966-67 - 2/10
1967-68 - 3/12
1968-69 - 5/14
1969-70 - 7/14
1970-71 - 5/17
1971-72 - 4/17
1972-73 - 6/17

That's very good, despite the fact that the Warriors roster typically had only one or two quality defenders around Thurmond and there were other great defensive teams, like Boston early and the Knicks later.

There was no DPOY when Thurmond played, so I can't point to how many of those he won, or how many times he was second to Russell. All-Defensive teams weren't recognized until 1968-69, at which point Thurmond was first team twice and second team three times. Mutombo made a total of six All-Defensive teams, with three first team and three second team. He was only second team in 1994-95 (David Robinson was first), despite being DPOY; at that time, DPOY was voted on by the media and All-Defensive was voted on by coaches.

Bill Russell is in the same boat, yet we had no trouble accepting his defensive impact. Thurmond was acknowledged by his fellow players and by sportswriters as second defensively only to Russell and better than Wilt. I can provide those types of testimonials, but if your requirement is that I provide statistical proof, then you're setting a bar that can't be met for anyone from that era.

Thurmond had six seasons with MVP shares, including one season when he placed second behind Wilt and ahead of Bill Russell, Oscar Robertson, and teammate Rick Barry, who score 35.6 PPG that season. Mutombo had one season with a MVP share, when he placed 13th.

As for Ben Wallace, on what do you base him being considered in this company? He led the league in blocks one season at 3.5, but he was not an elite rim protector over the course of his career. Offensively, he was just plain awful.

Offensively, Mutombo was more efficient, but that's it. He was never a go-to scorer, and he had only one season averaging above 14 PPG. Thurmond was usually the second-best scorer on his team, often on a par with the best scorer until Barry came along. Thurmond averaged 15.0 PPG for his career, averaged over 20 PPG for five straight seasons, and got to the line a lot.

Errands to run, so I'll leave it there.

Posted: **Mon Oct 2, 2017 12:21 am**

Outside wrote:
LA Bird wrote:1. Dikembe Mutombo
One of the greatest defensive players ever and should have won more than 4 DPOYs. Deke is the only player beside Russell who is on both of my defensive Mt Rushmore for peak and overall career. He dominated DRob/Hakeem in late 90s DRAPM data which suggests his relative lacking defensive versatility and agility out in the perimeter did not stop from him being a major defensive force. I rate Mutombo as a slight negative offensively due to him not being a good passer but he at least scores at a solid efficiency on low volume and can make FTs. Remained a top tier defensive player into his 40s and the extra longevity puts him ahead of other centers (namely Mourning, Reed, Walton) who peaked higher but had their careers significantly cut short by injuries.

If you value defensive players so highly, look at Thurmond. He was a defensive force second to only Russell.

I have Thurmond just outside my top 50 so I will be voting for him pretty soon.

Posted: **Mon Oct 2, 2017 12:35 am**

48) Iverson
49) Westbrook

Winsome Gerbil wrote:
This is something like round 12 of this, so what else could I possibly say?

So, the next 3 guys I think should be up are Allen Iverson, Russell Westbrook, and Dominique Wilkins. Then it will likely be time to turn to some of those great old school bigs.

All 3 guys I think at this point are being criminally undervalued relative to their accomplishments, and it's basically because of their playstyle.

But the thing is that for objections to their playing style to have legitimacy, especially in light of their enormous stature and statistics, there just HAS to be a corresponding failure in actual performance.

So I want to talk about Nique here, since the others have been done to death:

'Nique
Dominique Wilkins was one of the most spectacular offensive players in league history. He has the 14th highest scoring average in NBA history, averaging 24.8pts in 35.5minutes. Kobe Bryant averaged 25.0pts in 36.0minutes. People at the time certainly knew it as they elected him to 7 straight All NBA teams. He only made one 1st team in an era when he was competing with Larry Bird, Julius Erving, Charles Barkley and Karl Malone, but he also peaked as high as 2nd in the MVP voting. The only person ahead of him on the all-time ppg list that has not been taken yet is Allen Iverson.

But because, uh-oh, he did his scoring in disfavored post player iso fashion, there seems to be this push to elevate just anybody else over him. We got Reggie Miller, who barely averaged 20ppg for much of his career, in there many picks ago. Paul Pierce, who never accomplished what he did as a #1, has been taken. Now we are talking Alex English, another great scorer, but one playing in an inflated duck and chuck system, and a contemporary consistently held in lesser esteem. Pau Gasol and Dikembe Mutombo, guys who were never in any way MVP candidates or #1s at anywhere near the level of Nique.

But again, the thing is, for the objection to be principled, it has to be paired by a measurable performance deficit.

One of the points raised to push along Reggie Miller's candidacy was that Miller, a mere 18.0 scorer for his career, but perhaps 20ish through his prime, with no creative ability, was somehow responsible for his team's consistently good Offensive Ratings. Okay, I find that dubious, but fine. Let's look at that. From the Miller debate it was clear that he could fairly attributed as his team's clear #1 guy for a 10 year span straight through the 1990s. Meanwhile Nique was clearly his team's #1 guy for 9 years beginning in 1984-85 (actually he was in his 10th year too, but was traded midseason greatly complicating the statistical picture, so I just leave that year off). So then:

Reggie Miller's teams 89-90 to 98-99:
89-90: 42-40 ORTG 7th
90-91: 41-41 ORTG 7th
91-92: 40-42 ORTG 6th
92-93: 41-41 ORTG 5th
93-94: 47-35 ORTG 11th
94-95: 52-30 ORTG 8th
95-96: 52-30 ORTG 6th
96-97: 39-43 ORTG 15th
97-98: 58-24 ORTG 4th
98-99: 33-17 (54-28 pace) ORTG 1st
----------------------------------------------
Avg: 46.6wins ORTG 7th

Dominique Wilkins' teams 89-90 to 98-99:
84-85: 34-48 ORTG 16th
85-86: 50-32 ORTG 11th
86-87: 57-25 ORTG 4th
87-88: 50-32 ORTG 5th
88-89: 52-30 ORTG 4th
89-90: 41-41 ORTG 4th
90-91: 43-39 ORTG 8th
91-92: 38-44 ORTG 16th
92-93: 43-39 ORTG 10th
----------------------------------------------
Avg: 45.3wins ORTG 8.7th

So...where exactly is the principled stand there? Where is the evidence that Reggie Miller, low volume "efficient" scorer was helping his team's ORTG and winning record, more than Dominique Wilkins, one of the league's greatest iso scorers? Because it looks to me like Nique's teams were doing just fine with performance very much in line with Reggie's teams. The difference was that Nique was personally responsible for more of it than Reggie was. And Reggie's already off the board. As is Paul Pierce, who cannot match those numbers.

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