What will it take for Lebron to be the G.O.A.T. in your eyes?

[bondom34]

Bosh's 3 FG% was better both before AND after playing with Lebron...

The Cavs haven't dominated anything... they pulled out 1 title by the skin of their teeth under what were IMO dubious circumstances... if that's your definition of dominating then you have a much lower standard than what most would consider as "ceiling raiser"...

I'd consider the 2 best season in Heat history a great ceiling. And glad we agree Bosh wasn't at his peak.

Fair points on Bosh, but by no means was he on decline like Wade. Bosh was still very much in his prime at the age of 26-29.

The ceiling raiser point though... I cant agree on that. Leading the Heat to the two best seasons in their history when none of either the 2012 or 2013 teams were considered ATG... we'll just have to agree to disagree since the needle hasnt moved one bit for you.

Yeah ill agree to disagree. If love that ceiling.

[andrewww]

So you are really using one season to argue your point? That's even more bizarre then IMO. Sure LeBron and Wade couldn't adjust to each other but LeBron and Wade clearly did to each other after 2011 and it worked except we never got to see the results really because Wade was injured on and off from 2012-2014 and notably in every post-season.

The entire crux of your argument is that right from the get-go to ball dominant players couldn't adjust to each other, come on man. LeBron did all of the things you talked about in 2012, 2013, and 2014 but Wade just got progressively worse each year.

As for Cleveland, I was actually rooting against the CAvs in 2015 Finals and was pretty harsh on LeBron for the whole Blatt thing (though in retrospect it turns out Blatt was just a horrible locker-room leader himself), but you do remember right that Kyrie was given plenty of chances to be the PG by LeBron before he himself decided to be the primary playmaker again? Credit to Kyrie now for doing what he's doing but Kyrie is clearly playing a different game now that he did in Cavs and that's on him not on LeBron. Kyrie still thrived next to Lebron anyways, they were a good pairing overall.

Edit: And bringing up Curry and KD is disingenuous for two reasons: one KD has never been the playmaker LeBron has and is just not at the same level as a ball-handler, court vision etc.

Secondly, and very more importantly, he joined an existing system with a strong head coach and a strong bench. The Heat had to CREATE the system which Spo couldn't right from the beginning simply because all they had was Wade and Haslem and then added Bosh, Bron, Miller and a bunch of minimum scrubs. So, even if from day 1 LeBron wanted to do all the things he ended up doing after the Dallas humiliation, that was just impossible when there was nothing in place, they had to create everything from scratch.

They adjusted to each other because Wade decided it was best for the Heat if he handled the rock more...not a bad thing to put the ball in your best player's hands of course... but this is the thing with Lebron ball... its effective against almost anyone but elite teams...

I don't doubt that KD joined a proven product.. what I'm saying is that if Lebron is really the GOAT then the whole narrative of him lacking talent is BS... he may not have always had the talent that fits best like GSW or even SAS... is it because he is simply unlucky (hard to believe he is unlucky considering Ray and Kyrie bailed him out) or is it because his weaknesses (shooting and portability) combined with the most optimal way to maximize Lebron (small ball with him at the 4) comes with some flaws (rim protection, team synergy) that seemingly less talented teams are able to figure out...

I want to continue this but hard for me to when you say "Kyrie bailed him out", I mean even if leave Allen out in what world did Kyrie bail LeBron out? The game was tied and LeBron (with tremendous help from Kyrie) had just dominated GSW in games 5-7 (though IIRC Kyrie wasn't even that good in game 6). That's why I said you are too far down the rabbit hole when it comes to Bron. I know you have beef with some posters on how they treat Kobe, but in a lot of ways you might be doing the same thing what you accuse them of...

Kyrie hit the dagger that Lebron wouldn't have the talent or cajones to take... if Kyrie misses you know who will get the blame...since they won we all know who got all the credit...

[PaulieWal]

They adjusted to each other because Wade decided it was best for the Heat if he handled the rock more...not a bad thing to put the ball in your best player's hands of course... but this is the thing with Lebron ball... its effective against almost anyone but elite teams...

I don't doubt that KD joined a proven product.. what I'm saying is that if Lebron is really the GOAT then the whole narrative of him lacking talent is BS... he may not have always had the talent that fits best like GSW or even SAS... is it because he is simply unlucky (hard to believe he is unlucky considering Ray and Kyrie bailed him out) or is it because his weaknesses (shooting and portability) combined with the most optimal way to maximize Lebron (small ball with him at the 4) comes with some flaws (rim protection, team synergy) that seemingly less talented teams are able to figure out...

I want to continue this but hard for me to when you say "Kyrie bailed him out", I mean even if leave Allen out in what world did Kyrie bail LeBron out? The game was tied and LeBron (with tremendous help from Kyrie) had just dominated GSW in games 5-7 (though IIRC Kyrie wasn't even that good in game 6). That's why I said you are too far down the rabbit hole when it comes to Bron. I know you have beef with some posters on how they treat Kobe, but in a lot of ways you might be doing the same thing what you accuse them of...

Kyrie hit the dagger that Lebron wouldn't have the talent or cajones to take... if Kyrie misses you know who will get the blame...since they won we all know who got all the credit...

Meh if you're gonna go to Skip Bayless takes let's stop talking now. Also if Kyrie missed the shot no one knows what would happen since the game was tied but you do you.

[Harsh Lesson]

As he should have, taking a lesser role doesn't mean that's the reason he got worse. He thrived as a 1B in stretches, the only reason he got worse is because his knees just gave out on him.

So, my comment wasn’t categorically false, was it?

Season one Wade may have been option B, but after the 10-11 season Miami become LeBron’s team, unquestionably. Everyone, including Wade himself acknowledged that he’d taken a step back so that LBJ could have more influence over the team. Never mind Cnris Bosh, who was also asked to sacrifice his individual star so LeBron could have his way.

Meanwhile KD moves to GS and the transition is seamless. No one has to step back, all of GS on down to Javale McGee can be them best selves en route to becoming the greatest team of all time. I.e. A real ceiling raiser.

The transition was seamless because GSW already has a system, Miami had Wade, Haslem and Chalmers and added everyone else. THe equivalent would be if KD went to GSW and they only had Curry and Pachulia and then added another star and a bunch of min scrubs. Yeah, something tells me the transition wouldn't be as seamless.

The transition was seamless because Durant’s portability is off the charts. He can play off the ball and allow ball dominant guards time to develop and establish themselves as he did with Westbrook & Harden. He can play point forward and carry a modestly talented team as he did the year he won MVP, or he can slide into GS and mold himself to their motion system while accepting the challenge of becoming the teams rim protector. Durant’s proven he can play in multiple different systems with all kinds of players without taking away from what makes them best. LeBron has proven that wherever he goes, and regardless of who he plays with, his teams are playing LeBron ball for better or for worse.

[mysticOscar]

Lebron's teams will never be an all time great because mainly of the style that Lebron plays.

He dominates the ball way too much. Usage is high while being a very ball dominant point guard while gunning for Defensive rebounds. Basically he is the system in his team. Really limits the impact of other players around him.

Looking at the of all the great teams in the NBA....most have one thing in common....a lot of cases, they are the best assist team in the league. This is the case for the Bulls in the 90s, Lakers in the 80s, Celtics in the 80s, Warriors in the '10s.....its a common trait.

Lebron's system generally are horrible at assist total. This is also true somewhat for his teams total rebounds. And lebron fans always blame his team mates and his coach...when in reaality, they should look at Lebron.

I thought that was an interesting point is how well Lebron's teams perform in this area.

Going back since 2011 when he started playing with elite talent this is how those teams ranked:

Team AST ranking:
MIA 2011 - 26th
MIA 2012 - 20th
MIA 2013 - 7th
MIA 2014 - 12th
CLE 2015 - 10th
CLE 2016 - 13th
CLE 2017 - 13th

I don't know if you can make a direct correlation but the team everyone generally points to as Lebron's best team is the 2013 Heat and they were the highest ranked. It is interesting that it looks like the Cavaliers were a better passing team than those Heat teams, particularly initially.

Then his teams pre-2011 were up and down:

Team AST ranking
CLE 2004 - 8th (rookie year)
CLE 2005 - 6th
CLE 2006 - 24th
CLE 2007 - 16th
CLE 2008 - 24th
CLE 2009 - 19th
CLE 2010 - 6th


If we compare this to other ATG teams AST ranking (which is, of course relative to that individual year)

1971 Bucks - 1st
1972 Lakers - tied for 1st
1980 Lakers - 1st
1983 Sixers - 19th
1986 Celtics - 2nd
1987 Lakers - 1st
1989 Pistons - 16th
1992 Bulls - 3rd
1996 Bulls - 1st
2001 Lakers - 9th
2008 Celtics - 9th
2009 Lakers - 2nd
2013 Heat - 7th
2014 Spurs - 1st
2015 Warriors - 1st
2017 Warriors - 1st

These are considered some of the greatest teams ever. There definitely seems to be a correlation between how strong a team is and how well they generate assists. There are some outliers with the 1983 Sixers who did do the whole superstar joins a great team thing, who are the lowest assist making team on the list. The 1989 Pistons were not a high assist team but then I don't think that was a surprise.

Basically, I think this says that teams that have the easiest time assisting plays are generally going to be pretty good. If you can combine this with any sort of defense then you have a chance to be all time great. It just seems Lebron teams have a hard time combining both aspects......

TY for doing the work. Its very difficult for me to have time to collect these data or remember which forum ive posted these before since im normally on the go and posting via mobile phone.

[Harsh Lesson]

Nah, my point about Wade was that in 2011, Wade and Lebron were very much at the top of their games. For example, you don't see Curry having to take a backseat to KD, and vice versa. Its because "Lebron ball" is the most effective way of getting output from Lebron, and if he has to share playmaking duties, play off the ball, etc. to accomodate other star level players, you get diminishing returns...this was proven in Miami and again in CLE... I'm not sure how hard that is to understand... tons of posters have chimed in and agree with this...

If you cant agree, then the way I view basketball along with many others compared to you or Bondom is too different to continue having any meaningful discussion.

So you are really using one season to argue your point? That's even more bizarre then IMO. Sure LeBron and Wade couldn't adjust to each other but LeBron and Wade clearly did to each other after 2011 and it worked except we never got to see the results really because Wade was injured on and off from 2012-2014 and notably in every post-season.

The entire crux of your argument is that right from the get-go to ball dominant players couldn't adjust to each other, come on man. LeBron did all of the things you talked about in 2012, 2013, and 2014 but Wade just got progressively worse each year.

As for Cleveland, I was actually rooting against the CAvs in 2015 Finals and was pretty harsh on LeBron for the whole Blatt thing (though in retrospect it turns out Blatt was just a horrible locker-room leader himself), but you do remember right that Kyrie was given plenty of chances to be the PG by LeBron before he himself decided to be the primary playmaker again? Credit to Kyrie now for doing what he's doing but Kyrie is clearly playing a different game now that he did in Cavs and that's on him not on LeBron. Kyrie still thrived next to Lebron anyways, they were a good pairing overall.

Edit: And bringing up Curry and KD is disingenuous for two reasons: one KD has never been the playmaker LeBron has and is just not at the same level as a ball-handler, court vision etc.

Secondly, and very more importantly, he joined an existing system with a strong head coach and a strong bench. The Heat had to CREATE the system which Spo couldn't right from the beginning simply because all they had was Wade and Haslem and then added Bosh, Bron, Miller and a bunch of minimum scrubs. So, even if from day 1 LeBron wanted to do all the things he ended up doing after the Dallas humiliation, that was just impossible when there was nothing in place, they had to create everything from scratch.

- Why can the Celtics bring out of Kyrie in a few months what the alleged GOAT couldn’t in a few years? Why is he better off without LBJ than he was with him?

- Durant is an awesome play maker, one of the best passing forwards in the league and an elite PnR ball handler. Difference is, while he could monopolize possessions and have the ball go through him every play, he understands that it’s better for the collective if he takes a step back and allows less talented players like Russell Westbrook, James Harden, and Serge Ibaka to come into their own. He understands that while he and Curry could monopolize possessions in GS to great effect, they need lesser players like Draymond, Iggy, and Livingston to be them best selves in order for the TEAM to be its best self.

[Ron Swanson]

I don't have a specific list of arbitrary achievements that he has to fulfill, but that being said, I just can't see how the current accolades (3 titles, 4 MVP's) puts him up there when he's still neck and neck, and in some cases still behind the other GOAT candidates in both cumulative and peak statistics (Jordan, Kareem).

As far as things like "Strength of Finals opponents" and "era"? They've been overused and prone to massive recency bias and hyperbole, so if your argument revolves around this now cliche assumption that Lebron has faced the toughest Finals opponents over the course of his career, then I respectfully say that your argument is flimsy and nothing but speculative based on what your definition is of things like "super team". (As if the 2011 Mavs or 2013 Spurs were such massively superior teams than the 60-win iterations of the Sonics, Jazz, and Magic that the Jordan Bulls had to face).

I may have ceded the argument that Lebron simply never had enough supporting talent had he not signed elsewhere in free agency two separate times for the sole purpose of surrounding himself with better talent and giving him more influence over roster decisions. I feel like Lebron's de facto front office "meddling" is never fairly included in his on-court legacy. It absolutely should be.

My question is, does the criteria change if he leaves Cleveland for greener pastures to pair up with Paul George and/or other stars in LA? Because most people tend to look at these things pretty binary (i.e. the casual fan "rings" argument) without much context in how an individual player actually achieves that success and the circumstances that they can control.

[Drylick]

Except neither Wade nor Bosh were near their peak versions at the time. So no, they wouldn't be.

Basically sums up LeBron's GOAT argument. Fans downplays his teammates to make LeBron stand out. LOL.

Bosh = 26-29 years old from 2011 to 2014. Was definitely one of the elite PFs in the game and definitely at his very best. Produced elite numbers before going to MIA. Regressed when jumped ship to MIA. I guess we all know the answer why, and the reason is not because he was not at his peak. He is definitely at his peak/prime but his numbers didn't suggest so due to him being relegated as a jumpshooter in LeBron's system.

Wade is at his very prime in 2011 and 2012, unfortunately got injured in 2013 and regressed after that injury.

Downplaying teammates at their best.

And no, the other guy @andrewww didn't admit and excused Bosh and Wade being out of their primes when LeBron moved to MIA. He stated that they weren't at their peak usage, which is different from peak-ability wise. Which is true. They were still at their best years, and they were still at their best when it comes to their abilities to play the game, but their production dipped due to LeBron's style of play. That is pretty much easy to understand.

[bondom34]

Except neither Wade nor Bosh were near their peak versions at the time. So no, they wouldn't be.

Basically sums up LeBron's GOAT argument. Fans downplays his teammates to make LeBron stand out. LOL.

Bosh = 26-29 years old from 2011 to 2014. Was definitely one of the elite PFs in the game and definitely at his very best. Produced elite numbers before going to MIA. Regressed when jumped ship to MIA. I guess we all know the answer why, and the reason is not because he was not at his peak. He is definitely at his peak/prime but his numbers didn't suggest so due to him being relegated as a jumpshooter in LeBron's system.

Wade is at his very prime in 2011 and 2012, unfortunately got injured in 2013 and regressed after that injury.

Downplaying teammates at their best.

And no, the other guy @andrewww didn't admit and excused Bosh and Wade being out of their primes when LeBron moved to MIA. He stated that they weren't at their peak usage, which is different from peak-ability wise. Which is true. They were still at their best years, and they were still at their best when it comes to their abilities to play the game, but their production dipped due to LeBron's style of play. That is pretty much easy to understand.

Andrew literally admitted he was wrong and it as shown.

And not sure why you refer to me as a Lebron fan making his GOAT argument as I'm neither. I just dislike people making a story 5 years later he as some favorite and that its not an amazing feat to always at least make make the finals. That's joke to me

[LeBird]

I think for some people they'll only accept LeBron for GOAT after he makes Space Jam 2. That's how many got Jordan over that hill.

[dhsilv2]

But Wade admitted himself that he took a lesser role to accomodate LBJ.

As he should have, taking a lesser role doesn't mean that's the reason he got worse. He thrived as a 1B in stretches, the only reason he got worse is because his knees just gave out on him.

So, my comment wasn’t categorically false, was it?

Season one Wade may have been option B, but after the 10-11 season Miami become LeBron’s team, unquestionably. Everyone, including Wade himself acknowledged that he’d taken a step back so that LBJ could have more influence over the team. Never mind Cnris Bosh, who was also asked to sacrifice his individual star so LeBron could have his way.

Meanwhile KD moves to GS and the transition is seamless. No one has to step back, all of GS on down to Javale McGee can be them best selves en route to becoming the greatest team of all time. I.e. A real ceiling raiser.

KD was born for that warriors team, but it's worth noting there were real complaints from curry about the offense last year. He absolutely was moved out of the featured role. I think it was a good move for the playoffs, but they weren't any better during the season from it.

[dhsilv2]

Lebron's teams will never be an all time great because mainly of the style that Lebron plays.

He dominates the ball way too much. Usage is high while being a very ball dominant point guard while gunning for Defensive rebounds. Basically he is the system in his team. Really limits the impact of other players around him.

Looking at the of all the great teams in the NBA....most have one thing in common....a lot of cases, they are the best assist team in the league. This is the case for the Bulls in the 90s, Lakers in the 80s, Celtics in the 80s, Warriors in the '10s.....its a common trait.

Lebron's system generally are horrible at assist total. This is also true somewhat for his teams total rebounds. And lebron fans always blame his team mates and his coach...when in reaality, they should look at Lebron.

I thought that was an interesting point is how well Lebron's teams perform in this area.

Going back since 2011 when he started playing with elite talent this is how those teams ranked:

Team AST ranking:
MIA 2011 - 26th
MIA 2012 - 20th
MIA 2013 - 7th
MIA 2014 - 12th
CLE 2015 - 10th
CLE 2016 - 13th
CLE 2017 - 13th

I don't know if you can make a direct correlation but the team everyone generally points to as Lebron's best team is the 2013 Heat and they were the highest ranked. It is interesting that it looks like the Cavaliers were a better passing team than those Heat teams, particularly initially.

Then his teams pre-2011 were up and down:

Team AST ranking
CLE 2004 - 8th (rookie year)
CLE 2005 - 6th
CLE 2006 - 24th
CLE 2007 - 16th
CLE 2008 - 24th
CLE 2009 - 19th
CLE 2010 - 6th


If we compare this to other ATG teams AST ranking (which is, of course relative to that individual year)

1971 Bucks - 1st
1972 Lakers - tied for 1st
1980 Lakers - 1st
1983 Sixers - 19th
1986 Celtics - 2nd
1987 Lakers - 1st
1989 Pistons - 16th
1992 Bulls - 3rd
1996 Bulls - 1st
2001 Lakers - 9th
2008 Celtics - 9th
2009 Lakers - 2nd
2013 Heat - 7th
2014 Spurs - 1st
2015 Warriors - 1st
2017 Warriors - 1st

These are considered some of the greatest teams ever. There definitely seems to be a correlation between how strong a team is and how well they generate assists. There are some outliers with the 1983 Sixers who did do the whole superstar joins a great team thing, who are the lowest assist making team on the list. The 1989 Pistons were not a high assist team but then I don't think that was a surprise.

Basically, I think this says that teams that have the easiest time assisting plays are generally going to be pretty good. If you can combine this with any sort of defense then you have a chance to be all time great. It just seems Lebron teams have a hard time combining both aspects......

Interesting post. Rather surprised to see the 96 bulls at number 1 there. Never thought of that team as a super high assist team. Not a big surprise lebron's teams have been lower either, Wade, Irving, and Lebron would all play iso ball. Of course this brings up the chicken and egg debate. Do teams do well because they pass well or do teams pass well because they have the offensive talent.

[andrewww]

Except neither Wade nor Bosh were near their peak versions at the time. So no, they wouldn't be.

Basically sums up LeBron's GOAT argument. Fans downplays his teammates to make LeBron stand out. LOL.

Bosh = 26-29 years old from 2011 to 2014. Was definitely one of the elite PFs in the game and definitely at his very best. Produced elite numbers before going to MIA. Regressed when jumped ship to MIA. I guess we all know the answer why, and the reason is not because he was not at his peak. He is definitely at his peak/prime but his numbers didn't suggest so due to him being relegated as a jumpshooter in LeBron's system.

Wade is at his very prime in 2011 and 2012, unfortunately got injured in 2013 and regressed after that injury.

Downplaying teammates at their best.

And no, the other guy @andrewww didn't admit and excused Bosh and Wade being out of their primes when LeBron moved to MIA. He stated that they weren't at their peak usage, which is different from peak-ability wise. Which is true. They were still at their best years, and they were still at their best when it comes to their abilities to play the game, but their production dipped due to LeBron's style of play. That is pretty much easy to understand.

Andrew literally admitted he was wrong and it as shown.

And not sure why you refer to me as a Lebron fan making his GOAT argument as I'm neither. I just dislike people making a story 5 years later he as some favorite and that its not an amazing feat to always at least make make the finals. That's joke to me

Statistically he wasn't at his peak, but even then its debatable considering his (bosh) numbers went up coincidentally after lebron left miami.

I dont think theres any debate that Bosh AND Wade were in their prime in 2011 and 2012.

[bondom34]

Basically sums up LeBron's GOAT argument. Fans downplays his teammates to make LeBron stand out. LOL.

Bosh = 26-29 years old from 2011 to 2014. Was definitely one of the elite PFs in the game and definitely at his very best. Produced elite numbers before going to MIA. Regressed when jumped ship to MIA. I guess we all know the answer why, and the reason is not because he was not at his peak. He is definitely at his peak/prime but his numbers didn't suggest so due to him being relegated as a jumpshooter in LeBron's system.

Wade is at his very prime in 2011 and 2012, unfortunately got injured in 2013 and regressed after that injury.

Downplaying teammates at their best.

And no, the other guy @andrewww didn't admit and excused Bosh and Wade being out of their primes when LeBron moved to MIA. He stated that they weren't at their peak usage, which is different from peak-ability wise. Which is true. They were still at their best years, and they were still at their best when it comes to their abilities to play the game, but their production dipped due to LeBron's style of play. That is pretty much easy to understand.

Andrew literally admitted he was wrong and it as shown.

And not sure why you refer to me as a Lebron fan making his GOAT argument as I'm neither. I just dislike people making a story 5 years later he as some favorite and that its not an amazing feat to always at least make make the finals. That's joke to me

Statistically he wasn't at his peak, but even then its debatable considering his (bosh) numbers went up coincidentally after lebron left miami.

I dont think theres any debate that Bosh AND Wade were in their prime in 2011 and 2012.

We just did this literally a day ago. Its 1 page back. Not going over it all again but it was covered there.

[andrewww]

Andrew literally admitted he was wrong and it as shown.

And not sure why you refer to me as a Lebron fan making his GOAT argument as I'm neither. I just dislike people making a story 5 years later he as some favorite and that its not an amazing feat to always at least make make the finals. That's joke to me

Statistically he wasn't at his peak, but even then its debatable considering his (bosh) numbers went up coincidentally after lebron left miami.

I dont think theres any debate that Bosh AND Wade were in their prime in 2011 and 2012.

We just did this literally a day ago. Its 1 page back. Not going over it all again but it was covered there.

which i said they were at their prime. I gave up debating with you because you're too difficult to convince otherwise. Just know that Bosh had career highs in FG% and TS% in Miami.

Bosh had his career high in PPG in 2010, Wade all-nba first team in 2010. not exactly dudes not in their prime.

[bondom34]

Statistically he wasn't at his peak, but even then its debatable considering his (bosh) numbers went up coincidentally after lebron left miami.

I dont think theres any debate that Bosh AND Wade were in their prime in 2011 and 2012.

We just did this literally a day ago. Its 1 page back. Not going over it all again but it was covered there.

which i said they were at their prime. I gave up debating with you because you're too difficult to convince otherwise. Just know that Bosh had career highs in FG% and TS% in Miami.

Bosh had his career high in PPG in 2010, Wade all-nba first team in 2010. not exactly dudes not in their prime.

And Pauline showed injuries taking their toll. BPM dropped andn3 point shooting too. Not doing this again.

[PaulieWal]

And Pauline showed injuries taking their toll. BPM dropped andn3 point shooting too. Not doing this again.

Who's this Pauline you speak of?

[bondom34]

And Pauline showed injuries taking their toll. BPM dropped andn3 point shooting too. Not doing this again.

Who's this Pauline you speak of?

Bah autocorrect!

[Harsh Lesson]

We just did this literally a day ago. Its 1 page back. Not going over it all again but it was covered there.

which i said they were at their prime. I gave up debating with you because you're too difficult to convince otherwise. Just know that Bosh had career highs in FG% and TS% in Miami.

Bosh had his career high in PPG in 2010, Wade all-nba first team in 2010. not exactly dudes not in their prime.

And Pauline showed injuries taking their toll. BPM dropped andn3 point shooting too. Not doing this again.

Bosh was better after LBJ left.

[andrewww]

We just did this literally a day ago. Its 1 page back. Not going over it all again but it was covered there.

which i said they were at their prime. I gave up debating with you because you're too difficult to convince otherwise. Just know that Bosh had career highs in FG% and TS% in Miami.

Bosh had his career high in PPG in 2010, Wade all-nba first team in 2010. not exactly dudes not in their prime.

And Pauline showed injuries taking their toll. BPM dropped andn3 point shooting too. Not doing this again.

The Bosh injury during the 2012 playoffs was a one off, he was never an injury prone player.

Even Wade in 2013 despite his knees giving out... when it didnt, he was very much a difference maker.

Pauliewal I'm sure will be the first to tell you...the pivotal game 4 at San Antonio in the 2013 Finals.. it was Wade who did the heavy lifting to prevent a 3-1 deficit.