This is in reply to Trex's post in thread no. 64, but putting it here to further the conversation about Thurmond.
trex_8063 wrote:Must admit----since the difference between adjacent [or nearly adjacent] spots on my list this far out is nothing more than whim or "gut feel"----that you've got me close to switching my alternate vote to Thurmond.
His defense has long been known to me (especially his low-post man D--->by reputation, Head2Head studies, and minimal "eye-test"), though I kinda want to watch a little more game footage paying more attention to his help D at the rim, and also paying more attention to his passing and screen-setting on offense. Do you have any recommended full or partial game videos to watch?
I've watched this one more than once:
Fabulous video, a real treat. Seems like the raw feed from the game, and it's great watching the game without the announcers and hearing the sounds of the arena. It really gives you the flavor of how the game was played and officiated at that time (Mendy Rudolph is one of the refs).
As for Thurmond, he's in the first 20 minutes of the video and gets subbed out once the Warriors get a big lead and the game is in hand. My observations from the video about Nate:
-- It shows him as an active rebounder. Most players stand and watch when a shot goes up, some box out the guy they're guarding, but very few use that time that the shot is in the air to really move and improve their rebounding position. Rodman was great at that, and so was Russell. Thurmond does it repeatedly in the video, often without a tangible result (the shot goes in), but he's on the move and putting himself in the best possible position to get the rebound.
-- The video is a great example of how he worked offensively out of the high post. The offense frequently goes through him at the high post, and numerous times, other players score underneath, benefiting from the spacing that creates.
-- As has been mentioned numerous times, his efficiency is below average, but he's far more capable offensively than players like Mutombo who had greater efficiency but were marginal offensively. Thurmond takes one midrange jumper that I recall from the video, from the baseline (he made it), he made both of his free throw attempts, and he's got a decent shot from that range.
-- He has multiple assists in the video, showcasing his ability as a passer and how involved he is in the offense. Twice, he quickly takes a made shot out of the net, steps out of bounds, and fires a length of the court pass to get a layup for a teammate at the other end. Multiple times, he makes passes out of the high post that lead to baskets by teammates (not all of those may have been credited as assists; they frequently weren't in those days if the receiving player took a dribble before shooting). Again, far more capable, involved, and beneficial to the offense than the efficiency argument gives him credit for.
-- I think he got a couple of blocks, and Tom Meschery challenged him and scored on him (Meschery was a tough player), but the video shows Thurmond patrolling round the basket and ready to challenge any shot in his area. We have stats showing that he was very effective one-on-one against the best centers of the day (Kareem, Wilt, etc.), but some people have questioned whether he was also effective as a help defender. This shows his mindset of doing just that, taking ownership of the heart of the defense. He was great at it.
trex_8063 wrote:I've seen this one, but not for a long time:
.....actually it was Dipper's (Hal15Greer) 3-part installment that I watched.
This is from the finals in Thurmond's rookie season. Nate was impactful, but it was an awkward fit with Wilt. Thurmond spent a lot of time on offense outside the key, but unlike the Seattle video, he's mostly isolated from the offense rather at the hub of it. Wilt is the center of everything, and while Thurmond still rebounds and plays defense, he's out of position for the most part. He doesn't come into his own until after Wilt leaves and he takes over as center (that process started at the beginning of the 1964-65 season when Wilt missed five games for health reasons. Thurmond averaged 20 points and 25.4 rebounds with Wilt out, including a 28-point, 37-rebound game, and that led the financially-strapped Warriors to decide to trade Wilt that season for several players and cash, going with Thurmond as their center of the future (for a fraction of the cost of Wilt's salary).
trex_8063 wrote:And I'm going to watch this one:
There's like a 1-minute recap of G6 of the '67 Finals I've seen (for whatever that's worth).
And I'm pretty sure I've seen at least part of a game with Nate in a Bulls uniform (for whatever that's worth: clearly post-prime).
Would like to see some more, if you know of some video links.
That last video is from a game on Feb. 25, 1970. Unfortunately, Thurmond missed that game, so he's not in the video.
But I hadn't seen that Seattle video, so thanks a ton for that. That gives me hope that there are other videos with Thurmond out there. Most of what I've been aware of to this point are the 1964 finals against the Celtics (Nate's rookie season, when he played with Wilt) and various clips from all-star games. If I can find the time, I'll search for Warriors games like the Seattle one.