Backpicks GOAT: The 40 Best Careers in NBA History | 4/13 - The Value of Longevity & Defense

[mischievous]

First, Wade has made it no further than Paul without a 1st team all-NBA teammate. He always had an elite player when he went deep. This is no shame, but its important context when you want to compare him to CP3.

But this is 06 Shaq:

1st team all-NBA 20/9 with 2 blocks, led league in FG%, 59% TS


Put up 20/10 on elite efficiency through the East Finals, obviously struggled against a Dallas team with 2 bigs and a defense designed to stop him(you will take this as an insult to Wade, but its factual, so you will just have to deal with me including it).

Blake in 14/15 is 22/8/5 55% TS not as good defensively as Shaq. 3rd team all-NBA Was terrific in the playoffs, and lo and behold and the Clippers beat the Spurs and took the Rockets to 7.

Shaq's 1st team selection was questionable based on games missed alone, somebody missing 23 games probably shouldn't make any all nba team imo, and the competition at center was really weak so Shaq was nothing like a top 5ish player like many thought Griffin was in 2014. Using all nba teams not only of different positions but also in different seasons is terrible analysis.

By the way why do you include Shaq's playoff numbers but not Griffin's?

2015 playoffs: 25.5/12.7/6.1 24.8 PER 56 ts% 2.6 OBPM 6.4 BPM. That is better than what Shaq did. Clearly better offensive player than Shaq was at that point with his huge playmaking gap. I remember Griffin basically being their point forward in those playoff games Paul missed.

Many laud 2015 as Paul's peak, and you are telling me that he can't win 2 rounds when he's getting that kind of production out of their 2nd best player?

People basically laud that victory over the Spurs as the highlight of Paul's career, which was a nice victory but that Spurs team was old, slow and weren't nearly as motivated as the previous season.

Funny how having good teammates helps with winning.

Yeah, they both had good teammates, and Wade won significantly more. What is your point of reiterating this?

Let's give Paul a couple years with Harden(and maybe Lebron?) and then we can start with "winning" as the determining factor talk.

Let's be honest here, it will be extremely surprising if Paul even stays healthy for more than a round or 2 this year. I hope that he does because i don't want to see great players get hurt, but i'm not banking on it. Besides that no, going to a WCF with a player that is superior to him, doesn't put him on Wade's level.

But Wade never proved he could carry a team on his own. Even in other seasons you pointed out recently were as good as any player in the league. So Wade at his best can't carry role players the way some other guys can. So why a different standard for Paul?

What do you mean by this? Wade during his prime usually had either good teammates, or garbage ones. When he had good ones he won, and won a lot. When he had bad ones...well what is he supposed to do with them? Paul has never had casts as bad as 09 and 2010 Wade. Which were arguably Wade's 2 best seasons. Wade in 2/3 of his best seasons would've loved to have Griffin, Deandre, and JJ Reddick.

But i'm done, i'm not arguing this any further as it's been debated endless times. It's basically all "what ifs" with Paul, so people give him the benefit of the doubt, while people find ways to downplay what Wade did just because he had good teammates.

[mischievous]

1. Andre Igoudala was a much better defender in 2014 than Bogut. Let's not forget Igoudala was still in/near his "physical prime" in 2014, a far cry to current Igoudala. You don't have to look far into the future to see how well he did on LeBron James in the 2015 NBA Finals, only a year after this series.

No he was not a "much better defender" than Bogut. Healthy Bogut was one of the best defensive centers and rim protectors in the league at the time, if Iggy was better at all which i doubt, it was not by any big margin.

3. The Warriors were 11-4 without Bogut on the season before the Clippers series.

That's fine, but it's clear that they were hurt in that matchup without him. Deandre Jordan killed them on the glass, and shot 76 fg%. Wouldn't have happened with Bogut there. I know some have mentioned, they were better without Bogut because they were able to run a more effective small ball, but in a series where they had to deal with Griffin and Jordan i don't think i buy that.

[ronnymac2]

Regarding that Clipper vs. Warrior series, I had that as basically an NBA Finals quality matchup going in. I was always high on both of those cores. I think I would have went GSW in a tight series, but because of the Bogut injury, I picked the Clippers because Bogut was a huge part of GSW's success, and without him, I thought Griffin/Jordan would be too much inside.

That GM4...Look, I'm not trying to blow my own horn here. But this was so clear in terms of body language how the Clippers were in their own heads during that game. Listless, unfocused. I'm not one to make excuses, but this was a bit different because it was about the team. I think we as objective observers can give them some slack here. I could also see in warmups before GM5 that they were going to trash GSW. They looked so free and easy and and light. Jordan dropped like 25/18/4 and murdered them inside. If somebody has the Blake Griffin thread from that period, I swear those were my observations that game.

Even with the Bogut injury, that was an amazing series.

[mischievous]

One last thing about the Paul writeup that i did like. He basically said Paul’s defense doesn’t move the needle on the big picture that much, which i’ve pretty much always said and always get attacked for it.

[PCProductions]

One last thing about the Paul writeup that i did like. He basically said Paul’s defense doesn’t move the needle on the big picture that much, which i’ve pretty much always said and always get attacked for it.

I'll admit to having been surprised reading that part, personally.

[Texas Chuck]

Spoiler:

First, Wade has made it no further than Paul without a 1st team all-NBA teammate. He always had an elite player when he went deep. This is no shame, but its important context when you want to compare him to CP3.

But this is 06 Shaq:

1st team all-NBA 20/9 with 2 blocks, led league in FG%, 59% TS


Put up 20/10 on elite efficiency through the East Finals, obviously struggled against a Dallas team with 2 bigs and a defense designed to stop him(you will take this as an insult to Wade, but its factual, so you will just have to deal with me including it).

Blake in 14/15 is 22/8/5 55% TS not as good defensively as Shaq. 3rd team all-NBA Was terrific in the playoffs, and lo and behold and the Clippers beat the Spurs and took the Rockets to 7.

Shaq's 1st team selection was questionable based on games missed alone, somebody missing 23 games probably shouldn't make any all nba team imo, and the competition at center was really weak so Shaq was nothing like a top 5ish player like many thought Griffin was in 2014. Using all nba teams not only of different positions but also in different seasons is terrible analysis.

By the way why do you include Shaq's playoff numbers but not Griffin's?

2015 playoffs: 25.5/12.7/6.1 24.8 PER 56 ts% 2.6 OBPM 6.4 BPM. That is better than what Shaq did. Clearly better offensive player than Shaq was at that point with his huge playmaking gap. I remember Griffin basically being their point forward in those playoff games Paul missed.

Many laud 2015 as Paul's peak, and you are telling me that he can't win 2 rounds when he's getting that kind of production out of their 2nd best player?

People basically laud that victory over the Spurs as the highlight of Paul's career, which was a nice victory but that Spurs team was old, slow and weren't nearly as motivated as the previous season.

Funny how having good teammates helps with winning.

Yeah, they both had good teammates, and Wade won significantly more. What is your point of reiterating this?

Let's give Paul a couple years with Harden(and maybe Lebron?) and then we can start with "winning" as the determining factor talk.

Let's be honest here, it will be extremely surprising if Paul even stays healthy for more than a round or 2 this year. I hope that he does because i don't want to see great players get hurt, but i'm not banking on it. Besides that no, going to a WCF with a player that is superior to him, doesn't put him on Wade's level.

But Wade never proved he could carry a team on his own. Even in other seasons you pointed out recently were as good as any player in the league. So Wade at his best can't carry role players the way some other guys can. So why a different standard for Paul?

What do you mean by this? Wade during his prime usually had either good teammates, or garbage ones. When he had good ones he won, and won a lot. When he had bad ones...well what is he supposed to do with them? Paul has never had casts as bad as 09 and 2010 Wade. Which were arguably Wade's 2 best seasons. Wade in 2/3 of his best seasons would've loved to have Griffin, Deandre, and JJ Reddick.

But i'm done, i'm not arguing this any further as it's been debated endless times. It's basically all "what ifs" with Paul, so people give him the benefit of the doubt, while people find ways to downplay what Wade did just because he had good teammates.

Responding just so you don't think I'm ignoring you. You seem to be taking this conversation very personally and I have no interest in further upsetting so you I'm going to move along.

I didn't intend to make this a thing I just believe that Wade has had far better opportunities for team success than Paul so I'm not personally inclined to make that my primary deciding point.

[dhsilv2]

One last thing about the Paul writeup that i did like. He basically said Paul’s defense doesn’t move the needle on the big picture that much, which i’ve pretty much always said and always get attacked for it.

I'll admit to having been surprised reading that part, personally.

I didn't fully understand it as it was written. Was he saying at Paul's best or him over his career? I'd agree that he was likely not a huge impact guy over his career. I say this, honestly changing my mind a bit from his analysis (I think he's right thinking about it on the early days), but he's been and had some really huge impact (for a point guard) years.

I did like the post here about how his lack of turnovers and risk while maybe hurting the offense was likely also preventing fast break points, and that might contribute to the "defensive impact" despite perhaps not being a defensive result as well.

That said I've seen enough to somewhat debate paul's team defense a times which is a very real and good critique of him. On ball the guy is as good as anyone ever imo, at his best that is.

Off this topic but just to avoid the double post. The fact people are debating the warriors team from 14 and ignoring David Lee's role is pretty crazy. Dude was a darn good player and wasn't really a part of the 15 team.

[magicmerl]

On ball the guy is as good as anyone ever imo, at his best that is.

I think he has fast hands and can get steals vs players to drive on him. But his height is pretty unfortunate and I think it's usually possible for taller players to simply shoot over him without being contested much.

[magicmerl]

So the 3 'teens' guys left are going to be Garnett, Dirk and Durant? And Curry at 26?

[eminence]

So the 3 'teens' guys left are going to be Garnett, Dirk and Durant? And Curry at 26?

Kobe/Dirk/Nash my picks for the teens. KD 26, Curry 30's. KG top 8.

[O_6]

I think he definitely underrates Paul’s defense. He is as smart of a defender as I’ve ever seen, is strong and quick and is a defensive captain. Pat Bev is a very good defender but seeing Paul’s defensive IQ in action this year in Bevs role, the difference is clear. He’s stronger on switches than Bev too, which matters a ton against GS and Durant (who CP3 guarded well).

I guess I’d still rank Paul behind Nash for now, but it’s basically a lock that CP3 is going to pass him in my book as soon as this years playoffs. His massive defensive edge over Nash really makes a difference in his fit with a weak defensive SG like Harden. CP3 just has a more complete skillset even if Nash was a greater offensive force. Big playoffs for him this year in terms of legacy imo.

[dhsilv2]

On ball the guy is as good as anyone ever imo, at his best that is.

I think he has fast hands and can get steals vs players to drive on him. But his height is pretty unfortunate and I think it's usually possible for taller players to simply shoot over him without being contested much.

He's had stretches on KD and done well. Yeah that's a factor but he's done well.

[dhsilv2]

double post sorry

[ardee]

So the 3 'teens' guys left are going to be Garnett, Dirk and Durant? And Curry at 26?

That would be ideal because it means Kobe top 8

[therealbig3]

Yeah I'm predicting Dirk/Nash at 18/19, and Kobe at 14.

[70sFan]

Based on write-ups, it seems that Stockton is called better defender than CP3 or am I missing something?

[Texas Chuck]

So the 3 'teens' guys left are going to be Garnett, Dirk and Durant? And Curry at 26?

Kobe/Dirk/Nash my picks for the teens. KD 26, Curry 30's. KG top 8.

I think this is right. ElGee always a big KG guy so unless his video research lowers his opinion on KG considerably(and that seems really unlikely) I'd expect him to separate from his contemporaries Dirk and Kobe in his list.

And he was always high on Nash as well. I'm hoping he digs deep into Nash' Dallas days something that typically gets ignored. I know I have my opinions of Nash from that period but someone's observations with more distance would be really cool.

[Texas Chuck]

Based on write-ups, it seems that Stockton is called better defender than CP3 or am I missing something?

Would you disagree? I respect Paul's defense but I think Stock was the better defender.

[70sFan]

Based on write-ups, it seems that Stockton is called better defender than CP3 or am I missing something?

Would you disagree? I respect Paul's defense but I think Stock was the better defender.

I believe that Paul can be more frustrating man defender, but overall I agree that John quickness and ability to read the ball movement makes him superior defender. Interesting that ElGee agrees with me and so do you.

[dhsilv2]

So the 3 'teens' guys left are going to be Garnett, Dirk and Durant? And Curry at 26?

That would be ideal because it means Kobe top 8

Or 31