Backpicks GOAT: The 40 Best Careers in NBA History | 4/13 - The Value of Longevity & Defense

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Re: Backpicks GOAT: The 40 Best Careers in NBA History | 4/13 - The Value of Longevity & Defense 

Post#1961 » by therealbig3 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:26 pm

mischievous wrote:
therealbig3 wrote:I'm appreciating KD more and more btw...I've been one of his harshest critics, but there's no denying that his style of play is wickedly effective. He has led better PS offenses with Westbrook as his running mate than Curry did with Klay and Green as his running mates, in a system that was far more maligned than GS's. This year, I believe GS's offense with him on the court was better than GS's offense with Curry on the court in the playoffs.

Not to say that he's better than Curry offensively, because a lot of different factors can influence that, but Curry is a guy that's routinely put in offensive GOAT territory (which the PS results just don't support imo, but that's a different discussion), so it's interesting to see how good Durant looks in that regard.

What exactly has changed about him since the conference finals though? Because if i recall correctly you were pretty harsh on him during that series even though he was the exact same player.


I was too harsh on him imo. Because the more and more I look at the results, the more and more I feel that you just can't build a GOAT-level PS offense around Curry, unless of course you have Durant as well. And Durant is the guy with more impressive results before they teamed up.

I think the ability to anchor high-level PS offenses is the biggest factor when determining how GOAT-y an offensive player really is. Obviously, we have to consider the supporting cast and the team strategy and the context in which they pull it off, but Durant led some really high-powered offenses in OKC, including the playoffs, and he surpassed what Curry was able to do in 2015 and 2016. Albeit, he had Westbrook next to him, and you could argue whether or not it was even really Durant that was leading the team in that regard, which is why I'm not totally sold on Durant over Curry, but it's clear to me that Curry is just more stoppable in the PS than Durant, unless Curry plays WITH Durant, and even then, he wasn't all that great in these playoffs for that matter.

This was the first time I really looked into how strong PS offenses have been with their best player on the court, and it was pretty eye-opening for me tbh. I can hate on Durant's play style all I want, and I do think it holds him back significantly compared to certain players, but it's still pretty darn effective. And for as much credit as we give Curry, he just hasn't produced anything all that impressive in the PS without the most talented roster in history perfectly clicking at just the right time.
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Re: Backpicks GOAT: The 40 Best Careers in NBA History | 4/13 - The Value of Longevity & Defense 

Post#1962 » by ztejas » Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:45 pm

bondom34 wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=19


Man he loves Chris Paul and KG. CP3 above Wade and Durant (even Curry if I'm being honest) doesn't really sit right with me, and neither does KG over Bird and Magic (but I know that has already been discussed into oblivion - don't want to get into it).

That said, I tend to value winning in the regular season and playoffs A LOT regardless of context.
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Re: Backpicks GOAT: The 40 Best Careers in NBA History | 4/13 - The Value of Longevity & Defense 

Post#1963 » by mischievous » Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:26 pm

therealbig3 wrote:
mischievous wrote:
therealbig3 wrote:I'm appreciating KD more and more btw...I've been one of his harshest critics, but there's no denying that his style of play is wickedly effective. He has led better PS offenses with Westbrook as his running mate than Curry did with Klay and Green as his running mates, in a system that was far more maligned than GS's. This year, I believe GS's offense with him on the court was better than GS's offense with Curry on the court in the playoffs.

Not to say that he's better than Curry offensively, because a lot of different factors can influence that, but Curry is a guy that's routinely put in offensive GOAT territory (which the PS results just don't support imo, but that's a different discussion), so it's interesting to see how good Durant looks in that regard.

What exactly has changed about him since the conference finals though? Because if i recall correctly you were pretty harsh on him during that series even though he was the exact same player.


I was too harsh on him imo. Because the more and more I look at the results, the more and more I feel that you just can't build a GOAT-level PS offense around Curry, unless of course you have Durant as well. And Durant is the guy with more impressive results before they teamed up.

I think the ability to anchor high-level PS offenses is the biggest factor when determining how GOAT-y an offensive player really is. Obviously, we have to consider the supporting cast and the team strategy and the context in which they pull it off, but Durant led some really high-powered offenses in OKC, including the playoffs, and he surpassed what Curry was able to do in 2015 and 2016. Albeit, he had Westbrook next to him, and you could argue whether or not it was even really Durant that was leading the team in that regard, which is why I'm not totally sold on Durant over Curry, but it's clear to me that Curry is just more stoppable in the PS than Durant, unless Curry plays WITH Durant, and even then, he wasn't all that great in these playoffs for that matter.

This was the first time I really looked into how strong PS offenses have been with their best player on the court, and it was pretty eye-opening for me tbh. I can hate on Durant's play style all I want, and I do think it holds him back significantly compared to certain players, but it's still pretty darn effective. And for as much credit as we give Curry, he just hasn't produced anything all that impressive in the PS without the most talented roster in history perfectly clicking at just the right time.

I’m not saying i agree or disagree, but based on your own sentiments here it sounds like you should have KD ahead, especially since you didn’t mention defense where KD is obviously better(even if he is overrated). I don’t really agree that postseason team offense is the most important thing when determining individual offense, I mean there’s 15 players on a roster + a coach, its almost impossible to determine an appropriate allocation to a certain player for that.

I’m also not sure i agree that Curry is clearly more stoppable in the postseason than Kd, i think if anything KD is more durable and perhaps that can push it in his favor. But if both are going into there healthy, it’s either a wash or in Curry’s favor imo. Like I can’t really say KD had a playoff run in OKC as good as Curry’s 2015.
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Re: Backpicks GOAT: The 40 Best Careers in NBA History | 4/13 - The Value of Longevity & Defense 

Post#1964 » by ThaRegul8r » Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:50 pm

bondom34 wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=19


Translation: Even though he said it right in the profile that LeBron would move ahead of Jordan on the list after season's end, that wasn't enough, people wanted to actually see it in print. Because when it came out, there were people upset that he wasn't ahead already, even though, again, it said right in the profile that he'd be ahead after the season. Because clearly it couldn't include this season as it was still ongoing at the time.

That's the only ranking people who wanted an update cared about, let's cut through any pretenses.

The Kobe/Malone switch is odd, seeing how neither one of them have done anything that would cause their positions to change.

EDIT: Someone brought that up to him on Twitter:

Read on Twitter


His response:

Read on Twitter
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Re: Backpicks GOAT: The 40 Best Careers in NBA History | 4/13 - The Value of Longevity & Defense 

Post#1965 » by Samurai » Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:33 am

ThaRegul8r wrote:
bondom34 wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=19


Translation: Even though he said it right in the profile that LeBron would move ahead of Jordan on the list after season's end, that wasn't enough, people wanted to actually see it in print. Because when it came out, there were people upset that he wasn't ahead already, even though, again, it said right in the profile that he'd be ahead after the season. Because clearly it couldn't include this season as it was still ongoing at the time.

That's the only ranking people who wanted an update cared about, let's cut through any pretenses.

The Kobe/Malone switch is odd, seeing how neither one of them have done anything that would cause their positions to change.

I'm not so sure about this. Given the number of threads that have popped up since the Finals comparing KD and Steph, asking about their rankings after the Finals, asking if Curry is now the 2nd best PG ever, etc., I think the changes in their rankings are also of interest to those people. Curry moved up from 32 to 27 and Durant moved up from 26 to 22.
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Re: Backpicks GOAT: The 40 Best Careers in NBA History | 4/13 - The Value of Longevity & Defense 

Post#1966 » by ThaRegul8r » Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:38 am

Samurai wrote:
ThaRegul8r wrote:Translation: Even though he said it right in the profile that LeBron would move ahead of Jordan on the list after season's end, that wasn't enough, people wanted to actually see it in print. Because when it came out, there were people upset that he wasn't ahead already, even though, again, it said right in the profile that he'd be ahead after the season. Because clearly it couldn't include this season as it was still ongoing at the time.

That's the only ranking people who wanted an update cared about, let's cut through any pretenses.

The Kobe/Malone switch is odd, seeing how neither one of them have done anything that would cause their positions to change.

I'm not so sure about this. Given the number of threads that have popped up since the Finals comparing KD and Steph, asking about their rankings after the Finals, asking if Curry is now the 2nd best PG ever, etc., I think the changes in their rankings are also of interest to those people. Curry moved up from 32 to 27 and Durant moved up from 26 to 22.


Hmm. This is something I've commented on before, that posters here tend to have a RealGM-centric view. While this is the forum everyone here is posting on, RealGM is not the totality of the basketball-viewing community.

How many posters are there who would be considered "regulars" on the Player Comparisons subforum? (The Player Comparisons and The General Board are primarily two different populations, and the General Board didn't even know about the list until a poster from this subforum posted it there to see what the reaction would be.) The voting roster for the Top 100 project consisted of 63 people, not all of whom were people who regularly post. Some of those who were regulars have stopped posting, and some like drza have gone on to bigger and better things.

ElGee has over 3,200 followers on Twitter. The majority of them are not people who posted here on RealGM when he was posting here. Social media provides a bigger platform than any internet basketball forum. Notable people from basketball media followed and regularly commented on the Backpicks GOAT series (which in turn introduced it to their followers who weren't following ElGee), and Nate Duncan had ElGee as a guest on his podcast. People asking for an update weren't all RealGM posters taking to Twitter to do so. So RealGM threads aren't indicative of the people on Twitter asking ElGee for an updated list.
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Re: Backpicks GOAT: The 40 Best Careers in NBA History | 4/13 - The Value of Longevity & Defense 

Post#1967 » by bondom34 » Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:58 am

Yeah, felt the same with Lebron, remembered his comment and it seemed strange given he had noted prior that Lebron would be bumped up.
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Re: Backpicks GOAT: The 40 Best Careers in NBA History | 4/13 - The Value of Longevity & Defense 

Post#1968 » by NinjaSheppard » Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:03 am

Gonna be really excited to see ElGee's ridiculous logic of killing CP3's season because he missed 2 playoff games and his team didn't win while giving Curry huge impact for missing 3 weeks of playoffs and three times as many playoff games because his teammates bailed him out.
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Re: Backpicks GOAT: The 40 Best Careers in NBA History | 4/13 - The Value of Longevity & Defense 

Post#1969 » by therealbig3 » Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:13 pm

mischievous wrote:
therealbig3 wrote:
mischievous wrote:What exactly has changed about him since the conference finals though? Because if i recall correctly you were pretty harsh on him during that series even though he was the exact same player.


I was too harsh on him imo. Because the more and more I look at the results, the more and more I feel that you just can't build a GOAT-level PS offense around Curry, unless of course you have Durant as well. And Durant is the guy with more impressive results before they teamed up.

I think the ability to anchor high-level PS offenses is the biggest factor when determining how GOAT-y an offensive player really is. Obviously, we have to consider the supporting cast and the team strategy and the context in which they pull it off, but Durant led some really high-powered offenses in OKC, including the playoffs, and he surpassed what Curry was able to do in 2015 and 2016. Albeit, he had Westbrook next to him, and you could argue whether or not it was even really Durant that was leading the team in that regard, which is why I'm not totally sold on Durant over Curry, but it's clear to me that Curry is just more stoppable in the PS than Durant, unless Curry plays WITH Durant, and even then, he wasn't all that great in these playoffs for that matter.

This was the first time I really looked into how strong PS offenses have been with their best player on the court, and it was pretty eye-opening for me tbh. I can hate on Durant's play style all I want, and I do think it holds him back significantly compared to certain players, but it's still pretty darn effective. And for as much credit as we give Curry, he just hasn't produced anything all that impressive in the PS without the most talented roster in history perfectly clicking at just the right time.

I’m not saying i agree or disagree, but based on your own sentiments here it sounds like you should have KD ahead, especially since you didn’t mention defense where KD is obviously better(even if he is overrated). I don’t really agree that postseason team offense is the most important thing when determining individual offense, I mean there’s 15 players on a roster + a coach, its almost impossible to determine an appropriate allocation to a certain player for that.

I’m also not sure i agree that Curry is clearly more stoppable in the postseason than Kd, i think if anything KD is more durable and perhaps that can push it in his favor. But if both are going into there healthy, it’s either a wash or in Curry’s favor imo. Like I can’t really say KD had a playoff run in OKC as good as Curry’s 2015.


Well, because like I said, I'm not sure if it was Westbrook or Durant that was leading the charge in OKC with regards to their offensive success in the PS. And we can point to Curry's injury in 2016 for why he might not have had amazing offensive impact those playoffs. So there's some wiggle room there.

And yeah, considering teammates and coaching and overall context is obviously important, I said as much. But in the instances when a player does have favorable circumstances around them, to me it's important to see how high they can push that team offensively. LeBron leading the #2 PS offense of all time, only barely falling short of the 2017 Warriors with Curry, speaks volumes to me, when he didn't have a good coach and he didn't have an all-time stacked squad with him. And his offenses in Miami were amazing too. This to me totally flies in the face of the common narrative of LeBron marginalizing teammates, because the way he's doing things leads to amazing results, so I'm not seeing why he should play differently. The evidence points to him using his teammates perfectly fine.

And the fact that Curry hasn't led amazing PS offenses in 2015, 2016, and 2018, and only doing so in 2017 when Durant joined their 73-9 core and that team was just perfectly clicking in the PS, despite Curry's amazing team situation, tells me he's just not the force in the PS that he is during the RS, and falls clearly short of LeBron, which means Curry isn't in offensive GOAT discussion...and is more in line with the Kobes and the Durants of the world.
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Re: Backpicks GOAT: The 40 Best Careers in NBA History | 4/13 - The Value of Longevity & Defense 

Post#1970 » by KTM_2813 » Wed Oct 3, 2018 1:18 pm

Ben appeared on the last episode of the Nate Duncan podcast to discuss his top eight. It is my favorite episode in quite some time. Thought I would mention for those interested.

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/duncdon/2018/10/03/ben-taylor-on-the-top-8-greatest-players-of-all-time
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Re: Backpicks GOAT: The 40 Best Careers in NBA History | 4/13 - The Value of Longevity & Defense 

Post#1971 » by Texas Chuck » Wed Oct 3, 2018 11:40 pm

KTM_2813 wrote:Ben appeared on the last episode of the Nate Duncan podcast to discuss his top eight. It is my favorite episode in quite some time. Thought I would mention for those interested.

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/duncdon/2018/10/03/ben-taylor-on-the-top-8-greatest-players-of-all-time


Ben was fantastic. Nate was awful. Ben showed him a great deal of deference since its Nate's show, I hope Nate can return the favor when he goes on Ben's.
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Re: Backpicks GOAT: The 40 Best Careers in NBA History | 4/13 - The Value of Longevity & Defense 

Post#1972 » by penbeast0 » Thu Oct 4, 2018 1:40 am

Texas Chuck wrote:
Ben was fantastic. Nate was awful. Ben showed him a great deal of deference since its Nate's show, I hope Nate can return the favor when he goes on Ben's.


The portability stuff did piss me off a bit. What specifically made you think Nate was awful?
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Re: Backpicks GOAT: The 40 Best Careers in NBA History | 4/13 - The Value of Longevity & Defense 

Post#1973 » by Texas Chuck » Thu Oct 4, 2018 2:05 am

penbeast0 wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:
Ben was fantastic. Nate was awful. Ben showed him a great deal of deference since its Nate's show, I hope Nate can return the favor when he goes on Ben's.


The portability stuff did piss me off a bit. What specifically made you think Nate was awful?


The main thing is it's Ben's work--we care what he has to say we aren't listening to hear what Nate thinks nearly so much. Respect your guest more mate. I disagree quite a bit with Ben's conclusions and while I totally respect what he's trying to get at it, I wouldn't take his approach. But he's such a brilliant guy and he's so good on the air. So instead of really getting to hear him explain and defend his decisions everything got rushed because we had to listen to these needless Nate diatribes. Respect your guest. This is groundbreaking work and if you recognize that enough to invite a guy on then let him go and you just help steer the conversation, ask probing questions etc... Respect your guest.
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Re: Backpicks GOAT: The 40 Best Careers in NBA History | 4/13 - The Value of Longevity & Defense 

Post#1974 » by bondom34 » Thu Oct 4, 2018 2:07 am

If I hear one more time about Nate's wedding...
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Re: Backpicks GOAT: The 40 Best Careers in NBA History | 4/13 - The Value of Longevity & Defense 

Post#1975 » by Fadeaway_J » Thu Oct 4, 2018 2:16 am

bondom34 wrote:If I hear one more time about Nate's wedding...

When did that happen? He's kept it so low-key!
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Re: Backpicks GOAT: The 40 Best Careers in NBA History | 4/13 - The Value of Longevity & Defense 

Post#1976 » by Dr Spaceman » Thu Oct 4, 2018 4:22 pm

Fadeaway_J wrote:
bondom34 wrote:If I hear one more time about Nate's wedding...

When did that happen? He's kept it so low-key!


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Re: Backpicks GOAT: The 40 Best Careers in NBA History | 4/13 - The Value of Longevity & Defense 

Post#1977 » by ThaRegul8r » Fri Oct 5, 2018 9:40 pm

KTM_2813 wrote:Ben appeared on the last episode of the Nate Duncan podcast to discuss his top eight. It is my favorite episode in quite some time. Thought I would mention for those interested.

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/duncdon/2018/10/03/ben-taylor-on-the-top-8-greatest-players-of-all-time


I was wondering when the follow-up interview once the list was completed was going to take place.
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Re: Backpicks GOAT: The 40 Best Careers in NBA History | 4/13 - The Value of Longevity & Defense 

Post#1978 » by Heej » Fri Oct 5, 2018 9:54 pm

What was Nate's username on here? I've really grown to have a greater appreciation for KG after this project. Really reminds me of how much we missed out on in 2009. That Celtics team should've been their best one and likely would've cruised to a repeat

ThaRegul8r wrote:
KTM_2813 wrote:Ben appeared on the last episode of the Nate Duncan podcast to discuss his top eight. It is my favorite episode in quite some time. Thought I would mention for those interested.

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/duncdon/2018/10/03/ben-taylor-on-the-top-8-greatest-players-of-all-time


I was wondering when the follow-up interview once the list was completed was going to take place.


Since Ben basically just did his 3rd episode of his podcast I'm guessing Nate should show up by episode 4 or 5 in a week or two. You figure even if they record the interview, Ben will need to do all the stitching and editing so I wouldn't blame him if he put out another episode in the meanwhile just to pump out some content.
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Re: Backpicks GOAT: The 40 Best Careers in NBA History | 4/13 - The Value of Longevity & Defense 

Post#1979 » by Dr Spaceman » Sun Oct 7, 2018 6:45 am

Heej wrote:What was Nate's username on here? I've really grown to have a greater appreciation for KG after this project. Really reminds me of how much we missed out on in 2009. That Celtics team should've been their best one and likely would've cruised to a repeat

ThaRegul8r wrote:
KTM_2813 wrote:Ben appeared on the last episode of the Nate Duncan podcast to discuss his top eight. It is my favorite episode in quite some time. Thought I would mention for those interested.

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/duncdon/2018/10/03/ben-taylor-on-the-top-8-greatest-players-of-all-time


I was wondering when the follow-up interview once the list was completed was going to take place.


Since Ben basically just did his 3rd episode of his podcast I'm guessing Nate should show up by episode 4 or 5 in a week or two. You figure even if they record the interview, Ben will need to do all the stitching and editing so I wouldn't blame him if he put out another episode in the meanwhile just to pump out some content.


As far as I know he’s never posted here, but I think a lot of the serious basketball media people are at least aware of this forum and read it from time to time.
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Re: Backpicks GOAT: The 40 Best Careers in NBA History (ElGee) (1/29 Update) 

Post#1980 » by freethedevil » Sun Jun 2, 2019 5:31 am

E-Balla wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:If going by O_6's anticipated choices are correct we're looking at 8 players already mainly from the 1990s not including yet the likely appearances of Jordan and Olajuwon. Were the 90s the best decade of basketball? Or is this like the Rolling Stones magazine lionizing the 1960s for music?

I always go with the late 80s/early 90s. You can look at the drafts of the mid 80s and they're all packed. From 81-87 there were no bad drafts and 84, 85, and 87 are all among the GOAT draft classes. Makes sense that would coincide with the deepest the league has been.

This is a terribly flawed way of assessing "quality" of an era. Players doing extremely well can both be a result of their own brillance or weaker competition. You're essentially asserting that this player is stacked with greats based on how these greats looked compared to their contemporaries.

IOW, circular reasoning.


Also bump, The Steph Curry Backpicks Goat profile is coming soon.
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